Well, i agree that Rigardo would probably be stronger than anyone there with Ophelia maybe as the only exception (but probably he was stronger), but Rigardo IS incredibly strong (and if it wasn't for Claire the ghosts would be in big trouble even now if they had to face Rigardo again).
Even Miria is NOT on Rigardo level yet imo, maybe she has some chance to fight against him more or less on equal ground 'cause she improved her speed endurance, but beside speed Miria is not even close to Rigardo.
Like i said, i don't think that those ABs are generally stronger than the ghosts since the ghosts are very skilled, but in terms of power and strenght in their attacks (necessary qualities to fight Cassy), they are on a completely different level than the ghosts (Claire's QS and Helen's drill are the only exception)........and i don't see why the hell should be strange for them to be surprised to see those attacks since they are not only powerful but also quite "strange".
Even i , as a reader,was quite surprised by some of those attacks even if obviously we have seen stronger monsters than those ABs.
Also, to make a stupid example, if Isley could be surprised by Helen i don't see why the ghosts can't be surprised by these ABs,lol.
Last edited by MalakTawus; December 30, 2012 at 05:35 AM.
so let's start with Octavia (a N.2) who has a body that resembles a horse(which means speed) and ribbon hands which makes it her offensive powers yet it seems that her ribbons although are long ranged weapons, they seem to deal not that much damage as they barely dealt damage to Cassandra.
The rest are a super powerful AB much life Dauf in power and got 4 arms, QS AB that seems to be able to cut and attack in multiple directions, Gluttony who is able to by using her sharp teeth to cut and eat her enemy(but remember that by using the half-awakened form she was able to stop and hit Priscilla-Destoryer's projections but here only way able to wrap it around one of Cassandra's heads and getting in into her "Mouth" which means that Cassandra's heads are quite tough), One that was able to fly but none known about her, one that resembles a beast and finally one with powerful projectiles just like Roxanne's but yet weaker. If you add to those Clare, Miria, Helen and Deneve (Not to mention Cynthia, Yoma and Tabitha) you have quite a strong army who can take care even of Isley.
Agatha a N.2 fell for only the warriors and here we have 6 ABs who are all single digits (minimum N.6 and below) and one of them is Octavia a former N.2! So yeah I suppose even Isely will be in a tough spot with at best will have 55% chance of survival which in Cassandra's case they are nothing(simply 100% chance of survival!!!) So indeed the difference is huge!
So even if Isley does what you pointed at, there is no telling that some are not that fast or even have a trick to counter his move, plus if they attacked him first he would be in a terrible position. And apparently he isn't that fast regenerator, as he takes time regenerate (he is capable but requires time) so if someone like Clare managed to cut an arm and the rest kept attacking, he wouldn't have the time to regenerate that arm and so like this till he dies.
Where is this mentioned in the manga (Being faster than any AO part)? It looked to me that Luciella didn't evade not that it was faster than her!Quote:
Plus it's not about having a weak defense of anything, because if you have great offensive powers and were able to demonstrate them wisely in battle without taking damage, then you are victorious no matter what else!
---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------
Hysteria is the fastest warrior and Miria due to her technique was able to match her Elegance so I guess even Rigardo will fall to this "fastest" technique! Even if you remember when Clare half-awakened, her technique in terms of speed were close to Hysteria's awakened speed and it was way above Rigardo's, so if I want to put Hysteria's Elegance technique comparing it to Riagrdo's speed and Clare's/Hysteria's awakened speed, IMO I say it falls between them making it superior to Rigardo's speed and so is Miria's speed.Quote:
Problem with what you say is that Claire was A LOT faster than Miria even when she use the phantom beyond the limit and that technique is USELESS against Rigardo since she can't control it at all and the best she can do is bump against Rigardo and damage him and herself at the same time.....problem with this fighting method is that Rigardo has a body far more strong than Miria, so basically it's a stupid way to fight against him.Quote:
Just to make things clear regarding everybody's respective agilities...
1) Miria's Old Phantom = Rigardo's speed
2) Hysteria's speed > Miria's speed
3) Miria's Old Phantom = Hysteria's Elegance
4) by transitivity, Hysteria's Elegance = Rigardo's speed
5) Clare's HA speed > Rigardo's speed
6) Clare's HA speed > Hysteria's Elegance
Last edited by Fermat; December 30, 2012 at 07:50 AM.
A projectile (i.e. something that is very aerodynamic) can be accelerated much easier than a strange bulk that is Hysteria's body (which is not aerodynamic). Mostly because it's much lighter (so even giving it a fraction of energy that would be needed to accelerate Isley's whole body it will still be much faster). Not to mention that energy isn't wasted on friction on the ground and other things (practically only air resistance and a small amount on a bowstring). That was actually Yagi's reasoning when he used Anastasia's hair to grant Miria impossible speed.
One could wonder though why in that case Isley lost to AEs. Well, Yagi stopped being consistent and logical a long time ago.
I feel people are underestimating Isley here. While we do know these ABs were single digits, we actually do not know how they ranked. But I doubt they were all no. 2s or 3s.
Either way, Octavia aside, they should be below Rigaldo. She seems fast, but I'm not yet convinced she is faster than him. Speed was his strength.
And he also stated that, despite all his bulk, Isley was faster than him (by a fair margin, I'd imagine). Plus, according to Chronos, he was really strong.
How are these ABs going to avoid him? The amount of yoki alone he has should dwarf anything they have to offer. Just use arrows to begin with. As Goral mentioned, projectiles (especially those coming from an AO) will be faster than a moving body. Look at how Roxanne's spikes could go faster than Hysteria. Then move in with sword and shield. And kicks. Those ABs are not gonna last.
A fair point that was raised earlier, Cassandra immediately busted out the Dust Eater when Roxanne attacked. That would suggest that the latter was indeed strong, but it's still odd.
Hysteria is still a sore point. No regeneration, no physical strength. Only speed. One hit on practically anywhere on her body and she's done for. Hell, even Rosemary might be able to beat her.
in the extra where he fights prissy isely himself says "there have been some who could catch or avoid my arrows...but never crush them all" so i think that says there have been awakened beings who were faster then iselys arrows
but speed wise i would say hysteria have the faster speed but she lacks iselys offensive ability so isely is by far stronger then hysteria and would beat her in a fight unless she ran away
.......also Fermat, to be precise we're not really sure if Miria was really as fast as Rigardo, remember that he was just playing around......
Another precisation: i don't remember who, but someone said that Octavia should have more speed than Isley......with all due respect i REALLY doubt that this is the case since Isley is supposed to be faster than Rigardo despite his huge body.........
This ABs team may seem great, but imo even now that they fight together, their strenght is nothing big compared to abyssals, infact i wouldn't be surprised that if Cassy decides to get serious she would have no problem at all (if it was that "easy" to defeat abyssals i doubt that the other top ABs never tried to do a temporary alliance to get rid of them.........no, it's not that easy imo, at best they can stall Cassy for a while hoping that she won't go full power).
I wrote my consideration about Isley before reading your post, so of course i agree with what you said on this point (actualy i have even less doubts than you that Isley is faster than Octavia, if not Octavia would basically be able to defeat abyssals on her own,lol).
About Histy, imo you are greatly understimating her.
Sure she can't regenerete fast, sure she doesn't have great strenght (compared to the other abyssals, i mean, since her supersonic thrust is quite impressive imo), but all that doesn't matter if you can't even touch her.
Her real weak point has nothing to do with her body imo, since with her speed and power she is uber scary, her real and only problem (that btw lead to her death) is the fact that she is an idiot with an huge pride that blind her judgment.
If Histy fought in a smart way, there was no way that she could have been defeated, infact imo she would be even stronger than Roxy (and Rosemary too).
Cassy remains probably the strongest thanx to her overall abilities........and byw i also read some post with someone understimating Cassy way too much:
-dodge like crazy (so it's also very fast)
-has an huge body that can endure a lot of damage and obviously at the same time even her attacks have a lot of strenght (her huge body would be a weak point normally, but not for monsters like her or Isley since they can move their huge body very well)
-when she is "herself" she fights like a true n.1
This 4 things combined alone make Cassy a very fearsome abyssal.
There is nothing strange at all in Isley losing against AEs, it's just that you sometimes don't even care to understand things anymore and immediately jump on the "inconsistency wagon".Quote:
I admit that sometimes there really are some inconsistency-problems, but sure as hell not as much as you (and others) make it seem, for example in this case:
Have you forgotten that Isley was tired???? And not just "a bit tired", he was very very VERY tired. Come on! He even had a bit of trouble against Helen when normally he would have destroyed her in 0,000001 seconds (not to mention that at that point, the AEs fighting against him were REALLY strong, not like the babies that Miria faced).
As much as someone can run (or fly) faster, it still remains a lot more problematic than accellerating a projectile (or even moving a single arm, just to extend the comparison).
---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------
Ehm, been able to catch his arrows doesn't mean that they were faster than his arrows.........it just means that they were able to move their arms (or whatever part of their body) faster than the time the arrows takes to reach their target: HUGE difference.Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------
Generaly i would agree (and if i had to make an hypotetical bet, i surely would bet on Isley), but on the other hand "speed" is a bit tricky imo.Quote:
For example Miria is able to defeat opponents much stronger than her thanx to her speed, so as much as i also belive that Isley is stronger overall, if Hisy's attacks are strong enough to damage Isleys body (and her thrust attack may be able to do it), than the final result of their fight wouldn't be so certain imo.
Last edited by MalakTawus; December 30, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
No I haven't forgotten and I'm amazed you're not seeing why I find it illogical, especially when you're agreeing with the rest of what I said. When AE finally defeated him it was their n-th encounter after many months of playing a game of cat and mouse. But what I'm questioning is why couldn't he kill them using his homing arrows the first time? Or second? Or even 4th (where he would surely notice that he needs to aim for their head or they will regenerate)? Seriously? Him being exhausted after n-th encounter is irrelevant to what I've said.
Anyway, I've mentioned about Isley being dumbed down by Yagi many times already (both here and on AS). The way I see it, it turned out he was too stupid to use his arrows and he was waiting to be killed because Yagi wanted it so. After all he was doing the same thing for months slowly exhausting himself and he couldn't learn from his mistakes (like choosing an open space where he can be attacked from all sides instead of luring them to a cave or dungeon/castle or digging a trap-hole or den himself).
Last edited by Goral; December 30, 2012 at 11:08 AM. Reason: changing my phrasing a bit
Point 4 is true only if we follow the speculation that yoki can't increase with training (and this is still an obscure point), if not one could contest that since Miria's yoki now is greater than before, so even her boost would be greater now.
.........and even if we follow the "yoki doesn't change" speculation, we still don't know if Miria's legs pre time-skip had already reached their maximum potential, if not it's also possible that she became faster simply training her legs (something like Claire did training her arms).
Also, tbh i'm not so sure that Miria's old phantom is REALLY as fast as Histy, it seems to me that she uses that expression to say that even if their speed was the same (implying: "and it isn't the same"), the real huge difference is the precision of their movements.
Anyway, that was my personal impression.
---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------
With all due respect,you are basically questioning something that Isley himself explained VERY WELL.Quote:
First of all he said clearly that those little bastards escape very fast all in different directions and that even for him it was difficult to kill them all, and second (and most important) is that he said clearly that at the beginning he UNDERSTIMATED them.
Basically, even if it's indeed possible (but still difficult) that at the beginning he would have been able to kill them all, he simply didn't care too much since he never imagined how dangerous their potential really was, especially since taken singolarly they weren't that fearsome.
He basically acted like any abyssal generally acts (they don't care too much about what they consider weak) and when he understood their real danger, the little bastards were already too sneaky to be able to kil them all (and his fate was decided).
So in conclusion, I am the one that is amazed in seeing that you missed to consider something so obvious (and said quite clearly in the manga).
There is absolutely no inconsistency here, there is only a fatal mistake that Isley did understimating the AEs,simple as that (and tbh it was a mistake very easy to do since i doubt anyone would have imagined before Isley's death that the AEs could become THAT dangerous).
.........not to mention that arrows are not even that good to hit target so fast and so small...and that can also bend their body in a ridiculous way........
I remember reading those chapters for the first time a couple years ago and being pretty pissed about Isley not evading the AEs much better. I understand he used the towns and villages to mask his scent with those of all the humans to confuse and slow down the AEs. But Isley was supposed to be highly intelligent, and, I would have thought that during his life long before the AEs, he would have physically found the sea by now, just for curiosity's sake. Why couldn't he have beelined for the sea and jump in, at least just to experiment with the AEs swimming abilities as well as their sense of smell when their target is in the ocean?
Why didn't he just aim better for their heads? Why didn't he go directly to Riful and Duff and throw a bag of his own blood on them, or even a deer, or any passing Yoma, or even Helen or Deneve? It just seems like someone as resourceful as him would have been doing unorthodox tactics to shake them.
Then again, Riful was also suddenly stubborn and not resourceful when she also realized that a huge trap was unfolding on her. And when the AEs starting damaging her, her reaction was really weird and not serious enough, even when Alicia/Beth showed up while the AEs where still around her. All she should have been thinking about was escape and evasion. I suppose maybe she had gotten too used to Duff adding to her firepower but in this case Duff was only physically slowing her down (assuming in her mind she could never leave him behind).
Oh, one more thing. Apparently Cassandra was a defensive type in her warrior life (referencing her regeneration)? That's a rarity for a n1. I can't recall another top warrior who was defensive?
And what if the organization trained the AEs to attack only in open space??? How can you know that they didn't already saw through that possible problem?Quote:
Isley is not an idiot, so if he didn't do it (and we can't know if he tried or not, you are simply complaining about a strategical move that we have no idea if he tested or not....in other words your complain is quite pointless).
......not to mention that even luring them in a closed space could be also quite dangerous for Isley since his body is huge......if they somehow survive the trap (and considering her crazy rigeneration is very probable) it's gameover for Isley.........anyway, like i said before, it's possible that he already tried that approach, it's not that we are told how he fought in all those years......
Anyway the smartest move IMO would have been staying with Prissy since in that case she would have never let Isley or Raki be hurt by those idiotic AFs, even in 100000000 tries they would have always failed miserably (especially since Prissy's ability is a lot more suited to fight sneaky targets like them) ,lol.
---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------
Using blood on others to confuse the target is also not very useful since when the AFs became strong i doubt there would be targets around that could buy him a lot of time, not even Helen or Deneve were strong enough for that role.
---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------
Also, even your consideration about Riful is completely invalid for at least 2 very simple simple reasons:
-if you think that Riful could escape Ali & Beth that easily than you are making a big mistake
-It's a fact that for Riful abandoning Dauf is not even an option since we have seen that even when she was very damaged she never gave up on him. As much as it may seem strange, she probably loves him.
---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------
No seriously, beside Cassy i don't think we have seen a defensive warrior stronger than Deneve. (but are you sure that Cassy is a defensive type?)
Yeah I guess Riful was pretty much DOA in that situation, really no room for escape or evasion if she couldn't entertain the idea of leaving Duff behind. We have to assume that she could only teleport if at full health.
I'm only looking at Cass's regeneration abilities and making a guess at her being defensive. Other ABs can't regen like that if they were offensive in their warrior life (e.g. Isley, Rigaldo)