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Of coruse that in front he was ordering Tobi the joker as that was the point.Quote:
As for where Tobi ordered him... To many chapters to go trough. Tobi ordered him to go get Kyuubi and ordered Kisame to get the 8 tails. At that point there was no longer a point to hide. Then Pein is showed stating (don't even remember to who) that Pein is ordered to get Kyuubi or something like that.
Hell Tobi is even showed talking with Zetsu about the losses Aka had to take to get where they where now. He was planing it all. Even Itachi was under his command.
Do you have any idea at what point Minato learned how to do that(st lvl 2)? Was it when Obito was around? You see this does not work...Quote:
First off he DID NOT GIVE A SHIT. He can change hands like you change hats. Second he had GLOVES ON and it did not work. Those damn bugs just about instantly got trough his gloves and into his skin. You actualy expect Tobi to stop, remove his cloack and somehow get to land a blow on that guy with his cloack or whatever on his hand? Please.. Way more easy and sure to hit that guy as fast as possible after he created that opening (stoping and removing his cloack is lol as he losing the opening) and if it get's trough the cloves then trow away your hand, who cares you have an entire storage of them.Quote:
Right... Thing is Madara himself almost got sealed because he was playing around. You see arogance does not mean you are a retard... 2 completly diferent things...Quote:
When he goes intangible he exists in both planes, well actualy more in the other then this 1 as he is moving his body there and here is left behind a 'false image". If he can interact with this dimension when he is not even here then he can with the other just as well considering he is actualy THERE when he is intangible.Quote:
So you think that Karin can use jutsus in that dimension but for people with Kamui that dimension is what? Stoping them somehow? No logic here. If Karin can then they can just as well. Kamui is just a door there.
Then Naruto used Rasengan, Kamui itself is a jutsu and in the end he aparently used genjutsu on Danzo's bodyguards when they where locked in there.
And that is why the posibility exists. Because it makes no sense aside for plot no jutsu to not use them. If he has all the jutsus Nagato had i am going to facepalm like there is no tomorow.Quote:
I need no proof that he can't do it, you need proof that he can. How about this. Bring me manga evidence that Naruto can't use Danzo's futons. Show me where it is stated that he can't do that.Quote:
Now i know many people belive Nagato was a moron but how about this... Maybe just maybe in his life he was able to develop those techs himself... Yeah i know imposible for people to do that if they are not Madara right? Why would Madara be able to and not Nagato also?
You have no evidence that MADARA HIMSELF knew them. If you do present them. Is it a posibility? Sure it is... Is it fact? No it is not. Madara had those eyes for a limited time, he got them when he was close to death as a old man, then he gave them away... He was in his blasted cave and he did not even get to see more action to try said eyes out... The posibility that Nagato himself in 30 years (or whatever) to be able to develop them is damn strong... Hell Nagato could have showed Tobi how the resurection works and not the other way around.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; January 11, 2013 at 02:46 AM.
---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------
Madara knowing the Rinne Tensei is a bit of a counter-argument to not knowing anything about the Rinnegan.
However, that has got nothing to do with Nagato learning the techniques. He still summoned the Mazou on his own and used the dragon to kill Hanzou's subordinates.
There's not too many chapters to go through. You only have one chapter where Tobi ordered Nagato, and that's when he told Nagato to get the Kyuubi. There has been no other instance of Tobi controlling Akatsuki while Nagato was alive, or before he invaded Konoha.
Um, it's him using Hiraishin, which is what he used around Tobi, but with a moving kunai, apparently. It's the same shit.Quote:
Torune kept his gloves on for a reason, apparently. And yes I do, considering he had so many good opportunities to do so. Hell, he could have grabbed Torune's foot and warped him away. Doesn't look like his feet give away bugs, or his sandals protect the grass.Quote:
Constantly being arrogant means you are stupid when you keep being put in your place. As with Nagato, his eyes are the only reason Tobi's still alive.Quote:
Has he used any jutsu when he's gone intangible, whether full or partial?Quote:
Then explain why Tobi and Kakashi never used any jutsu, whiel Naruto and Karin have. But, all I said was mere speculation, not fact.
Tobi saw Naruto and knew Kakashi was in his dimension, but he made no motion to dodge or attack or anything, he just stood there and let himself be hit.Quote:
I gave you proof. You refuse to admit it as a proof. The burden of proof falls on you now, or at least it's your turn to give me actual proof he can't do it.Quote:
Apples to oranges. Naruto has not shown knowledge of any of Danzou's fuuton jutsu. Tobi and Madara have shown knowledge and ability to use at least one Rinnegan jutsu.
What techs? Chakra absorption? Madara used it. Rinne Tensei? It's hinted Tobi can use it, and Madara knew about it. Human Realm's ability? Hinted that Tobi can use it. Six Paths? Tobi used it.
I never said Madara created any jutsu. Even if he did, it doesn't mean Nagato or Tobi can't it.
Chakra absorption. Rinne Tensei no jutsu. That's at least two he knows of. When did he give his eyes away? Immediately after turning it into Rinnegan? A month after? Five years after? Decade after? He doesn't need to see action, he can just use Rinnegan. He was able to summon Gedo Mazou.Quote:
Maybe so, but why would he? How would Madara know about the Rinne Tensei? In Madara's words, he never met Nagato after giving him the eyes as a little kid. If Madara didn't know about it, I could give you that one, but he does. Nagato may have taught Tobi some Rinnegan jutsu, but Rinne Tensei and chakra absorption aren't it. And since Madara knew about both, and Tobi knows about Rinne TEnsei, chances are he taught Tobi or told Tobi about Rinne Tensei.
Nagato was able to master every element's specific ninjutsu at the age of 10, so, he had all the time in the word to go on and work on the Rinnegan jutsu.
Once again though, considering Madara knew of two Rinnegan jutsu, used one, and Tobi knew about three or four Rinnegan jutsu, I find it hard to believe that Nagato was the only one who came up with all that or that Madara and Tobi can't use Rinnegan jutsu.
I don't have any idea how he knew of it. If a dying Madara is able to know of Rinne Tensei at an instant, he could also have.
This is an entirely different topic. We have no reason to believe Obito isn't able to use the Rinnegan jutsu right now.
Wasn't it said that Nagato had the power to control the Juubi because of his heritage?
I think a lot of Rinnegan's jutsu was written on a tablet somewhere, like Rinne Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. Madara, Nagato, and Tobi definitely didn't create Chibaku Tensei. Madara or Nagato may have perfected it, but we know or can assume it was Rikudou SEnnin who did. And considering Rinnegan allows one to use any jutsu, there's no reason to believe why Tobi can't use the Rinnegan jutsu we've seen so far.
We do have reasons to believe that he chooses not to, no matter how stupid the reasons are.
The thing is Tobi's compliment on Kakashi's intellect about guessing why he doesn't use the Rinnegan jutsu could be sarcastic or not. I think this confuses a lot people on the topic. Other than that, if he's able to control the Mazou and the Six Paths, it must be the same with other jutsu, unless something is specified to make us believe in the other way.
I don't think it's untrue though, however sarcastic or derisive it may be. Seriously, how can you say Tobi knows six paths but say he doesn't know other jutsu that he didn't use? Rinnegan should allow him to use any jutsu, and since he's used a very complex Rinnegan jutsu, I'm sure he can use others.
You could say plot is the reaosn why he's not using the Rinnegan, or that he's saving chakra for later. If he used Rinnegan, he'd probably have beaten the trio already just by absorbing chakra.
Seriously read here:Quote:
Tobi direcly states he is not going to accept failure. Tobi directed everything and manipulated Nagato in doing whatever as long as the end result was the weapon. Yeah we don't have more then that but its enough. If Tobi was not ordering Nagato about how could he state he is not going to accept failure after sending Pein to get Kurama? Tobi was the mind behind Nagato. Obiviously Nagato could take decision himself but when it got down to it "Madara" had the last say.
Aparently its not the same shit... Minato event stated level 2 as it is the next level... Aparently not even Tobi could gues this is posible... It is very east for Minato to have developed this AFTER Obito was around... Its probably more dificult to teleport to a moving object then to something that is at rest (nothing can really be at rest as we are traveling trough space but you get the point).Quote:
Em how do you know those where not SPECIAL gloves? Tobi was also probably guesing he would not be infected:Quote:
Note he used both hands but only 1 was infected. Note he had gloves on... Probably belived that would protect him but they did not. Also protect the grass? Bugs go after chakra not grass or ground. They go after crep they can feed on. Perhaps he even had bugs crawling on his lower body after he removed his upper costume... Things is they would be invizible to us but not to Madara's sharingan.
So did you know if that guy had bugs on his lower costume? Nop. Also gloves on Tobi and still infected... He whent with it as he did not give a shit.
Thing is he won all the fights(aside for Minato but even there he got Minato dead)... You are going with insane prep and information on a caracter and the enemy landing hits to make him look like a moron... This is absurd to say the least... Konan made preparations for Tobi after having close to full info on him... You point is absurd. Yes he got hit... Who did not in a fight with a Kage level individual? I mean she was ready to BLOW HERSELF UP... He on thet other hand was force to not use letal force as he wanted her ALIVE. He had to capture her... Seriously... She knew Madara would try to suck her in as he needed her alive... Then she just blew herself up... Nothing to make Tobi look like a moron here man.Quote:
Also what keeps him alive is irrelevant. For Madara, Naruto, Raikage and ANY other ninja i can find you the same thing. Raiton shield, EYE, KURAMA etc, etc, etc.
He whent completly trough an object when using PEIN (JUTSU) and chakra chains. He was grabed by a biju's hand and he walked trough it. So he used 2 jutsus at the same time.Quote:
Why ask me for plot holes? Let me ask you this. Why has Kakashi used his fist and not a kunai to hit Tobi and remove his guts? Fact is jutsus can be used when in there. Tobi put a genjutsu on those 2 bodyguards as we know.Quote:
He was not expecting it. Only his lower torso was inside... I am sure he can't see trough his belly man. He needs his HEAD and EYES to be in there so he can see the attack... If its just his torso... He obviously does not have eyes there.Quote:
Where did you linked Tobi using his Rinnegan jutsu that you claim? Where did you linked him stating he can do ST, chakra shield and a few other jutsus? Please show me.Quote:
What you have been doing is NOT providing evidence... Its you opinion. Evidence is direct links from the manga where it is claimed or showed as possible. The fact that he can do SOME of them is NOT EVIDENCE THAT HE CAN DO THEM ALL. Can you understand that? I belive it was very simple.
But not all so keep trying. Just because you have the tools does not mean you can do it. What you keep posting is NOT evidence.Quote:
Madara knows chakra shield, no evidence that Tobi knows it. If you belive Madara showed it to Tobi you are going to need to show me where. Is it posible? Sure as hell... Does it have a good % to be true? Sure as hell... Is it fact and evidence? Sure as hell not. Rinne Tensei? Yeah granted you have panels for that. Not going to say its not true. Human Realm's ability? When was it hinted? I really don't remember.Quote:
He used the Six Paths diferently. He could not chanel his own jutsus trough them like Nagato could... If he could then you would see them go intangible, doing ST and so on. He was taxed to his max by just controling them. But yeah granted he can use Pein jutsu to some degree.
Now how about ST, BT, CT? Any indication that he can use them?
Nagato developing his own jutsus that Madara did not had the time or ability is perfecly posible. That is what i keep telling you about. We don't know WHAT Madara knows and what and IF he showed ANYTHING to Tobi. I am 99% he did show Tobi how to do the resurection one as it was part of his plan to get back, also Mazo control.Quote:
How is this relevant? i am not claiming Madara can't do the jutsus he showed but just because he can do some of them is not evidence that he can do them all.Quote:
Yes we don't know when he passed them but considering Nagato age and Madara's old age when he did... Thing is i am pointing with this that its perfecly posible for Madara to now have time to develop some of the jutsus Nagato did. You again don't have evidence, you have posibility.
Because he is not a moron. He most defenetly was able to unlock some of the jutsus himself. Now how many of them and how good is specualtion. That is what i tell you. I don't know but you also don't know. At this point is asumtion, personal opinion to the point its proven in the manga.Quote:
You see i am not stating he CAN'T use them. I am stating WE DON'T KNOW if he can use them. Its speculation at this point.
You also need to take into account that Madara could have showed Tobi only what was needed so Tobi does not become to powerfull himself. What you think Madara trusted Tobi 100%? Heh from the looks of things Tobi did not even have the intent of bringing him back... He summoned the 10 tails even before knowing Madara was around.. He wanted to bring this new reality himself... Madara is NO moron... He probably knew of this posibility.
What you have is could have, probably, perhaps. No clear indication of anything. A gues is not evidence, even an educated one.
Last edited by xXan; January 14, 2013 at 04:03 AM.
Giving it different name doesn't make it any different. It's just freakin' Hiraishin to a moving seal. He doesn't need to develop this after Tobi was around, it's obvious he should be able to teleport to a seal, moving or not.Quote:
Likely is, but Tobi still underestimated Minato and was arrogant, like usual.
Tobi apparently got hit because according to himself, he wanted to see what Konan would do. Rather than stop her immediately or get out of there, he chose to stand there and observe. There's a difference.Quote:
They show more than what they have. Tobi showed nothin but Kamui, while Naruto has shown skills that didn't need the Kyuubi. Same with Madara and Raikage.
Not in the other dimension.Quote:
Which can be completely different from actual jutsu. But, we don't know if Tobi can't use other Rinnegan jutsu considering he didn't dodge even when he could have.Quote:
After he was attacked, he still did nothing.Quote:
Opinion based on what we've seen. We've seen Tobi use Six Paths, we see him knowing about Rinne Tensei, and we see him saying he could have used Human Path's power. Madara also was able to use chakra absorption. I have no idea why you keep saying Tobi can't use the Rinnegan jutsu when he's used at least one and knows about two.Quote:
You don't have evidence he can't do it either. You say he'd have to know it... Madara or Nagato could have told him or taught him. How else would Tobi know about the three jutsu we've seen him use or mention, then? How can he use one of the most complex Rinnegan jutsu but not other ones?
You're also providing opinion when you say he can't use the jutsu. There's no evidence he can't.
So if Tobi has a kunai and hasn't used it before, does that mean he can't throw it? If someone uses Byakugan for the first time, does that mean they can't see almost 360 degrees until later?Quote:
When Kabuto brought Yamato back to Tobi. He said he could use Human Realm's ability but didn't want to kill Yamato. Nagato could afford to let the paths use his own jutsu, but the jinchuuriki were Edo Tensei whose bijuu weren't under Tobi's control, it took his chakra to control them.Quote:
Why not? If Nagato can use Rinnegan despite it being Madara's eyes, Tobi should be able to do the same. Hell, we could even assume Tobi taught Nagato how to use the Rinnegan after Madara taught him. You can't prove otherwise, considering we know Madara taught Tobi jutsu, and Tobi and Nagato knew each other before Yahiko's death.
Who says he couldn't channel his own jutsu? Why would Tobi care about letting the EDO TENSEI JINCHUURIKI be intangible or use Shinra Tensei, especially when he himself has admitted that he couldn't waste chakra when the enemies knew the counter to the jutsu?
What jutsu did Nagato develop, though? We have no idea what the truth is. I'm just going with Tobi being able to use all jutsu unless proven otherwise, considering it's the Rinnegan and doesn't look like it needs any specific ability or genes to use the full power.Quote:
You don't have evidence either, it can go both ways here.Quote:
You could argue Madara used Bansho Tenin to pull in that huge rock or meteor or whatever it is. So far though, Tobi and Madara know at least four jutsu Nagato used - Rinne Tensei, Six Paths, chakra absorption, and Human Realm. Why wouldn't they know about other jutsu?
oh, I won't disagree with that.Quote:
You said at first that Nagato was the leader and no indication that Tobi was giving orders from the shadows... Now you changed to this... Yes Nagato could make trivial decisions but when it got down to it TOBI ordered what to do and how. Tobi WAS the leader from the shadows. Nagato was the FRONT.Quote:
Tobi was the real leader. Nagato was a puppet like presidents are today(and yes they are puppets don't get me started on it, they have some power obviously but in the end they puppets)...
Huh? So FRS its just freaking Rasengan... Seriously this quote is NONSENSE. For Minato its the next level in Hirashin and you are stating its just Hirashin... Seriously...Quote:
Hirashin level 1 - teleporting to objects at rest.
Hirashin level 2 - teleporting at objets that are moving...
Yes its not the same thing and YES it could be developed AFTER Obito left the village considering HE DID NOT KNOW THAT IS POSSIBLE FFS...
Its not the same thing to teleport to an object that is FIXED and its not moving and completly diferent thing to teleport to something that is MOVING taking into accoutn movment. angles and a hole lot of factors. 3 people had a hard time teleporting Mei to a fix objet taking acount diferent factors. Its not that easy as you think. 3 people where needed to do what Minato was doing by himself.
That was NOT during the part when he was covered in paper... That was before of it. He gave Konan the first go at it... Then Tobi just tryied to warp her away and she... Well you know what she wanted to do...Quote:
Also observing what the enemy can do FIRST and then act its not dumb... Its actualy the other way around... Him provoking her and w8 for his opertunity (as he needed her alive) to strike is not stupid...
Again NOT RELEVANT... Its HIS POWER, deal with it.Quote:
No, but he could in this one. In this 1 he is not even PHYSICAL he is intangible... On the other side he is COMPLETLY tangible as he EXISTS THERE... In essence he showed you he is able to use jutsus FROM 1 DIMENSION TO THE OTHER...Quote:
Dodge when? Naruto when he got hit with the Rasengan? That is like dodging Raikage travel at 3x his speed... That is if no plot no jutsu forcing Naruto to decrease his level of speed just so we can have a fight...Quote:
Do what? HE WAS HIT ALREADY. What did you whant him to do? Reverse time? He removed his "parts" from the other dimension so Kakashi does not have what to hit and then Kakashi returned.Quote:
Come on man its geting boring trying to argue with you that this man is NOT a moron for Gods sake... I know you don't like his caracter but seriously... Try to give him SOME credit...
Interesting that after so many posts you still did not get the fact that i was not stating facts and i was just telling you its a POSIBILITY that can do them but its NOT FACT. You finaly got to "asumtion". That is the POINT.Quote:
Tools did not refer to physical objects... If you can trow a rock you can trow a kunai... YOU ARE BORN able to do this crep... Jutsus on the other hand are learned and needs practice...Quote:
As for the Byakugan we do not know if it grants 360 from the start or if its something like the sharingan(sharingan having tomoe and B something else) but asumint it grants from the start then yes you get 360 as it is a pasive ability. Take Sasuke... He had prediction trick, Amaterasu but the rest he needed to develop... Susano and later he did not even know about Izanagi/Izanami.
Your examples don't exacly apply here.
When Kabuto brought Yamato back to Tobi. He said he could use Human Realm's ability but didn't want to kill Yamato.
Are you refering to Kabuto staing about NAGATO doing that? Anyway if Madara stated he can use Human Realm then yes he can (really don't remember the event). Did Kabuto state about Nagato or did Tobi stated about himself?
Yes and Nagato had better control on them as he had a ton of rods in them and in himself. His jutsus was diferent somewhat. Tobi has a version of it using just 1 rod and costant close proximity to the realms (what Nagato did not need, he could take some distance from them, Tobi on the other hand is close to them at all times). If he is using the power of his eyes to control them he even might need some line of sight with them at least only small gaps.Quote:
This is not about using the rinnegan... Its about knowing how to perform said jutsus. Sasuke is using ITACHI'S eyes but he had no bloody clue how to do Izanami.Quote:
What and if anybody showed anything to the other parts is asumtion.
Nobody can realy counter it. Use 1 of the realms to crep the entire area with a super ST. Trap both of them inside as mall moon and so on. There is no real counter even for regular ST. it hits like a truck and there is no real way to defend yourself (aside for Naruto). Put a well place ST and you do some nice damage. Just use some tactics. You don't even see a ST coming as its an invizible force.Quote:
He just prefered to let the ET zombies to there thing considering the had good enough jutsus and power themselfs (probably).
I have no idea what he did. Think is you have been posting this (and not only to me but to others) as fact. Fact that Tobi can do the other Rinnegan jutsus when we have no real evidence of it. We have some circumstancial evidence at best but you have nothing to tie it down and prove its true. You need someone stating he can do it or showing it.Quote:
And where did i say i do? Where did i say he can't do it? I always said we don't know if he can. There is no evidence that he can. I never said "look i have evidence that he CAN'T do it". I keep poiting this out to you that is a POSIBILITY.Quote:
I know it looked like BT thing is it needed handseals and Susano. So its posible... But yeah nothing clear.Quote:
Sasuke knows Amaterasu, Susano and aprently MS genjutsu why would he not know about Izanagi. Then finding out about Izanagi why would he now know about Izanami?
I don't if they do or don't. Thing is they never stated or showed TO know.
Well that is the point i keep trying to pass. Tomorow when the new chapter comes out(or at least i hope so) Madara or Tobi could start trowing crep with ST/BT and then its fact...Quote:
Last edited by xXan; January 15, 2013 at 10:25 AM.
Don't know what the discussion is about, but I just wanted to state this is wrong. Nagato was already confirmed as the leader. Tobi was most likely an advisor\collaborator.Quote:
Nagato was the leader in the front. Tobi was the man in the shadows manipulation everything ... Aparently he even CREATED Aka if we go BY HIS WORDS. If that was also a lie is left to be seen. He did lie about giving Nagato the eyes as Madara did that but we don't know about "creating Aka" and if that was also a lie.
Here he states it:
Starting from the begining aparently Tobi manipulated everything.
Nagato was the "leader" but only in front. Only in NAME but Tobi was the man with the plan... Now it depends what you understand by "leader". What is the leader? The puppet in front or the mastermind in the back running the show? For me the later is the leader.
Heh look here to:
Who is pulling the strings? TOBI IS. He ordered Nagato to get Kurama and Kisame to get the 8 tails. Nagato was the front, Tobi is the real leader of Aka. He just left Nagato to look like the leader so he can can unoticed.
Last edited by xXan; January 18, 2013 at 06:16 AM.
Now, look here : He says he can catch the Kyuubi whenever HE wants.
Furthermore, Konan stated he never took orders from Tobi. And here he says OUR goals.
And in the recent chapter, you saw for yourself that he never bossed him around but simply kept asking him everyday to lend him his power. Not to mention Zetsu said "we need to BEFRIEND him" Not "We need to make him serve us".
And there is more, Nagato didn't give a flying eff about about Tobi's plans that you speak of. He had his own plan and Tobi most likely knew that but couldn't do anything about it. He simply influenced Nagato, he was never a superior to him. To further show the he was serving under Pain (or the Akatsuki for that matter), was him obediently wearing the organization uniform, and didn't dare to take it off until Nagato died.
And finally, It was stated by Kishimoto in the Naruto Chronicle Mini Book character relationship chart, that Tobi was simply a collaborator with Nagato NOT a leader of the Akatsuki. This proof alone is enough, as it's a direct statement from the author. But since you don't like this kind of proof I decided to add others.
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 18, 2013 at 07:17 AM.