Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (4/13/15 - 4/19/15).
New Forums: Visit the new forums for Boku no Hero Academia!
Forum News: Cast your votes to determine the best in Fairy Tail Awards.
Unohana owns Kenpachi, Kenpachi learns about his Zanpakuto during the fight
Unohana dies battling Kenpachi to death while holding back
Kenpachi defeats Unohana fair and square, but doesn't kill her
Whoever wins, someone (Kyouraku or other) interferes before someone dies
Other (Mention in discussion)
What you have to realize is Aizen used his intellect and knowledge to weaken Yama and SS. In the end he was a singular force that could be, and was stopped. He was never to our knowledge close to reaching the Soul King. The Vandenreich however seems to know how to get to the Soul King. And unlike Aizen, they have an army comparable to the power of all of SS. They are using sheer force to dominate SS and have just killed the strongest Shinigami that has lived in the past 1000 years. Not to mention, they have an ability to steal Shinigami's most powerful technique.
It's obvious the reason that the Royal Guards are coming into play now is because the Vandenreich not only poses a huge threat to SS and the Soul King, but they are neutralizing all of SS's big guns in the process. Aizen was only ever able to do that with Yama, and then shortly after he was defeated by Ichigo, which didn't leave much time for the Royal Guards to react.
Last edited by Delbi; January 18, 2013 at 10:03 AM.
---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------
So, no captains to fight a transcendent being is much more of an emergency than 12 captains making a stand against an army that rivals their power to me. But never mind, different opinions will always exist.
Finally back to comment on the chapter.
Gotta say, this chapter alone trashed every idea I had about how the shinigami/zampakuto relationship work and quite frankly the whole thing is all the more confusing for it. The idea we had been given of zampakuto is that they were in many ways an intrinsic part of the shinigami in question, that they were a part of his soul. In turn what we see now is that zampakuto do not come from shinigami but rather they start out as separate beings altogether and this very separate beings take on a name and abilities based on what a shinigami is able to imprint on it.
Now, on one side the whole thing explains pretty well why a bankai breaking would be so bad. A zampakuto is not an entirely inherent power to a shinigami, it exists on its own as a separate being from a shinigami. The world ichigo goes to when he meets zangetsu is not within himself, it is within the zampakuto itself and it reflects what is going on within ichigo. Since a zampakuto's power does not originate from a shinigami but rather it is a being on its own then it is conceivable that damage could be done to it that would be of permanent nature. In turn if the zampakuto came from within the shinigami and it was merely a manifestation of the power that comes from him then it wouldn't make that much sense that destroying the physical manifestation of that power would cause permanent damage as destroying the physical manifestation of the power should not have an effect on what is within the shinigami in question.
In turn the situation cannot possibly be so simple as the zampakuto simply being a separate being from a shinigami, at least if we consider what we have seen with ichigo. Zangetsu and shirosaki have shown a deep relationship with ichigo which IMO is not fully explained by a zampakuto being a separate being from a shinigami. Ichigo's relationship with zangetsu has not simply been about ichigo using special abilities, there have been a few more things which are kinda off. Overall zangetsu/shirosaki have had a deal of control over ichigo's reiatsu and overall power which seems a bit extreme if they are to begin with foreign to ichigo. Just look at the fight with zaraki, ichigo getting a better relationship with zangetsu allowed him to use a greater deal of his power. Then we have the fight against aizen in which ichigo getting past some issues allowed him to transcend shinigami and hollow powers. Of course then there is the now exceptionally weird part of ichigo himself absorbing shirosaki. Back when ichigo fought shirosaki to learn to to hollowify what we saw was that ichigo beat shirosaki and absorbed him within his soul. How is that possible? Did shirosaki stop being within zangetsu and moved to ichigo's actual body/soul? Then we had the even weirder part when zangetsu forcefully removed shirosaki from ichigo and fused with him. More so, what exactly is shirosaki for that matter? As far as we know shirosaki is a zampakuto much like zangetsu except that he holds hollow powers. How is he simply able to alternate between hosts? If he is within the zampakuto then why is he able to take over ichigo at points? Perhaps the issue at hand is that shirosaki himself is not quite the one trying to take over ichigo. When ichigo has actually transformed into a hollow the hollow in question does not have a personality, it is a beast of destruction only. Perhaps this alternate beast is what gave birth to shirosaki within zangetsu and not ichigo?
Another thing which also gets significantly weirder is the fact that at some point ichigo's and aizen's zampakuto were seemingly fusing with them at the height of their power. What is the meaning of that? Aizen talked about the original shape of the zampakuto however that kinda makes little sense with the zampakuto being man made creatures independent of shinigami. The fusion with the zampakuto becomes something entirely different now that we know what a zampakuto truly is. It is the actual fusion of independent beings. Of course, it is entirely possible that a zampakuto by consistently bonding with a shinigami becomes far more than a being foreign to a shinigami and perhaps an actual literal part of the shinigami in question in which case the fusion is not as a whole entirely weird. It could simply be an end result of zampakuto and shinigami. Of course, I wouldn't expect the fusion of the two to result in the transcendental beings we saw. Rather I would think that the fusion is a possibility in regards to the relationship of shinigami and zampakuto and it is a step previous to being transcendental.
Another important issue here is just how disturbingly similar a zampakuto and fullbring are. Overall it seems that zampakuto are in many ways more advanced versions of fullbring. The difference would be that rather than feeding a nonsentient soul of sorts with memories, you feed a very real being with the very essence of your souls (which might include memories). Perhaps the whole thing goes the other way around though, perhaps fullbring are simply crude versions of zampakuto rather than a prototype of sorts.
In turn, another concept introduced here would perhaps be the actual death of a zampakuto. If a zampakuto is independent and foreign to a shinigami then obliterating a zampakuto would indeed result in its actual death at large. Can a shinigami get another asauchi if his zampakuto is destroyed to that extent? Perhaps getting a zampakuto is a one time deal and there is simply no way to get another one in the worst case scenario.
Taking a look back it also seems that bankai stealing got a decent bit less weird with the current development. I think the whole thing makes a tad more sense with how zampakuto were revealed to work now than with how we used to think they did. Before they were stealing an intrinsic part of a shinigami's soul. Now they are mutilating a being separate from a shinigami. I wonder if there is a relationship between a bankai being broken causing so much permanent damage and it being able to be stolen at large. Perhaps the issue lies in shikai requiring simple communication with a zampakuto and bankai requiring the asauchi to manifest in the real world. The shikai is a simple change in the shape of a zampakuto, bankai manifests the actual spirit through the physical weapon. That would kinda explain why bankai being broken and stolen is so significant. A shikai is not the actual spirit, it is a manifestation of a bit of its power which remains in the physical sword. A bankai on the other hand is the actual spirit thus while yielding a huge amount of power also puts at risk the actual zampakuto spirit and perhaps leaves it vulnerable to being stolen whole. Shikai would remain as it is something simply imprinted on the physical aspect of the zampakuto which is easily repairable.
As far as kenpachi's training, this is definitely not what I had in mind. Shunsui definitely took a weird bet here if he is right. More so, if he is right about one of them dying then by all intents and purposes he sent unohana there to die. Lets look at the several possible scenarios which by my count are 3:
1.- Unohana kills kenpachi. In this scenario the gotei 13 won nothing. As far as we know there is nothing quite hampering unohana from using her full strength. In this scenario unohana did not get stronger and SS lost a captain level shinigami for no reason. This is by all intents and purposes the actual worst case scenario here.
2.- Kenpachi kills unohana. In this scenario we have kenpachi pushing his power beyond his own limits. He would be fighting with no style at large against someone to whom his "two hands" thing is literally garbage. Kenpachi winning here means that he improves his sword and gets more control over his reiatsu. SS loses unohana however if kenpachi's potential is big enough they can end up with a fighter more than capable of taking the place of the kenpachi we know AND current unohana as a fighter.
3.- Neither kills the other. In this scenario, which is by shunsui's estimates the most improbable, if not impossible, one then SS gains everything. Kenpachi refines his swordsmanship and perhaps reiatsu and they keep unohana as a fighter. Perhaps this scenario happening will be something which shunsui can influence though. In the end there are several abilities in SS which would make this happen. Overall it is extremely dangerous for someone to be anywhere near there at all however if there were abilities which could hamper them at the last moment without the user getting involved in the fight it would increase the odds of this scenario. Say, shinji. If he were to remain hidden and use his zampakuto at the last possible moment then a fatal blow could be avoided for either unohana or kenpachi. Aizen's ability would be even better. I wonder if such a thing was accounted for.
As far as unohana being the first 11th squad captain, well, that is really weird for me. Just how long ago did the first gotei 13 existed? Seeing the chapter I get the impression that the original gotei 13 were in fact the ones who fought the quincy 1000 years ago. Still, we saw genryusai founding the academy 2000 years ago and sasakibe mastering bankai also 2000 years ago. I really wish kubo would give us some more details regarding the timeline here. If I had to guess I would think the manga implies the gotei 13 in its current form has existed for just about 1000 years in fact. SS and genryusai obviously long precede that however that implies that before 1000 years ago SS's army had a different structure altogether. Perhaps the reason shunsui and ukitake were the first graduates to become captains is that 1000 years the gotei 13 as they exist now did not in fact exist. As the quincy threat loomed genryusai was forced to recruit ordinary thugs and make them into captains with a purpose. With that timeline aging makes some measure of sense in bleachverse and the royals being ancient makes sense too.
the thing is if Unohana is the first kenpachi and a badass killing machine why she didn't do shit when aizen almost destroy the world and i know that ichigo was the only one that didn't see aizen zanpakuto but she could had done more unless all this time kubo kept unohana for this moment train zaraki and go wild but please kubo don't let unohana get kill by zaraki and let her go wild against quincies and kill those son of bitches..
The same reason Ukitake or Koryaku or Genryuusei couldn't, Aizen had used techniques, tricks and his zankapatou to disable their senses. Even a master swordsman can't do much against that hax ability apparently. Ichigo hasn't and he also used like the most basic sword skills to take him down in DFT mode anyway.
His and her skills might have been on a similar level before he started using the Hogyoku.
Last edited by Schabrak; January 18, 2013 at 12:36 PM.
Now, Yama is dead, SS is half gone, and Ichigo doesn't even have a Zanpakuto. Things are much much worse now.
And you keep going back to Aizen being a "transcendent being" and yet he kept getting his ass kicked in the end by Ichigo who hasn't even reached his full potential yet. Aizen's power wasn't his own, and even with all the power he acquired, The Royal Guards didn't see him as as big of a threat as the Vandenreich, they even say this themselves so their is no disputing it at this point. Aside from not having enough time to respond, Aizen was trying to create the Key, and couldn't do it, so the Royal Guards didn't do anything, since they have no obligation to defend SS so long as the King was safe.
The Vandenreich however, aside from trying to kill the King, are doing shit messing up the whole balance of everything according to the Shinigami. So whereas Aizen was looking to replace the King, the Vandenreich are looking to destroy him and everything else. They aren't looking for power, they are out for revenge and thus are much more dangerous.
Well, Unohana's transformation to bloodthirsty legend is becoming cemented. I'm happy to see Unohana get the recognition she deserves, but it is jarring to see her personality change completely so suddenly. I'm curious about her wound, and what pushed her to become the healer that she has been known as for such a long time. I don't see Shunsui's prediction coming to pass. If Unohana slays Kenpachi the exercise is pointless, and I consider Kenpachi's victory over Unohana rather unlikely. Excited to see how this plays out.
That's why the situation, to me, isn't as dire.
I agree, though, that took quite a bit of hype from Aizen.
Oh, but for one to be a threat, maybe there are some secrets Bach knows of, unlike Aizen, which makes him more of a threat to the king, even without being a transcendent.
Let me predict the fight between the two Kenpachis.
1) Both will do some wild swinging, maybe some minor damage to clothes. Both parties laughing all the time.
2) Then Kenpachi goes serious and learns to release his blade, getting an advantage.
3) Unohana responds in kind. It's even again.
4) Kenpachi learns the bankai, starts beating the crap out of Unohana.
5) Unohana releases HER bankai. Things gets even again.
6) Kyoraku interfers, both spend some time in sick-bay.
The order in which the duo powers up could be reversed. Each point represents a chapter, with some lunatic laughter and mental breakdowns for every chapter.
Well, as far as unohana releasing her sword goes we have to consider the possibility of her zampakuto actually not having offensive abilities whether in shikai or bankai. We have seen her shikai before and it hardly seems to be the sort to have offensive abilities. It even had healing abilities to boot. More so, minazuki actually means purify the flesh which further suggests non offensive abilities overall. Bankai is usually a large version of shikai so a bigger healer is not necessarily going to help. Perhaps a big part of the reason unohana learned advanced swordsmanship is that she had no offensive abilities to begin with with her zampakuto. Now, it is entirely possible her sword has alternate forms much like she seems to have alternate personalities however the scenario of her not having offensive capabilities with her sword is very real.
1.. unohana is unscathed as zakari takes several wounds...
2.. zakari is confused.... doesnt get why his skills are inferior..
3... unohana is sublime in her skill and lectures while slashing zakari until he drops his blade.
4..unohana heals him... then they resume fighting.
5 unohana breaks zakaris shikai, and stabs zakari in the chest... he falls like ichigo did,...
6.. kenpachi learns something and possibly has an ichigo moment where he is near death an finally hears or sees his zanpaktou
zakari gets his new zanpaktou (cool new shape, no longer howling in pain with serrated edges) and wounds unohana deeply...
7... unohana sits there wounded as zakari walks off ... no fun to fight weaklings... lol