Unohana owns Kenpachi, Kenpachi learns about his Zanpakuto during the fight
Unohana dies battling Kenpachi to death while holding back
Kenpachi defeats Unohana fair and square, but doesn't kill her
Whoever wins, someone (Kyouraku or other) interferes before someone dies
Other (Mention in discussion)
Well here is the thing though...Nimaiya created the Zanpakuto as it is currently known. However thats not to say that there weren't "regular" swords that were being used by Shinigami who channeled their own reiatsu through the blades of their swords and fought in battles like that. Kind of like what Zaraki does when he fights. This guy gave SS the Asauchi, it was never stated that he created the entire concept of a sword/blade all together and that there was nothing like that in SS before he came along. My guess is that the strongest and best Shinigami were always naturally able to inject their spirit and reiatsu into regular swords and through that method a rare few and powerful, completely from scratch, created what became known as Zanpakuto way back in the beginning of the Shinigami's time.
By the looks of it Nimaiya, by creating the Asauchi, gave the opportunity for all Shinigami to be able to have some type of a Zanpakuto to be used even by those who cannot achieve Shikai or Bankai. That way they could still perform their duties as Shinigami. If something like that isn't the case then this guy would essentially be the father of all Shinigami since it is the duty of the Shinigami to keep balance and the way they do that is by using a Zanpakuto to perform Konso and Hollow Purification. This would make him slightly younger then the Soul King and probably one of the first, if not the first, Shinigami to ever exist. I don't know about all of that. I think he just gave all Shinigami, rather then just those rare few, the ability to do their job via the Asauchi thus greater balance of souls could be achieved as the human population grew over time.
we know that yamaji and sasakibe learning bankai, yamaji teaching shunsui ukitake etc ...was atleast before yamaji became CC of g13 i.e. 1000 years back atleast... timelines are messed up in bleach but the general idea is that all shunsui,ukitake,sasakibe,yamaji and unohana are the only ones from over 1000 year back (except for few of royal guards)... shunsui and ukitake were yamaji's students in his academy where he taught 1000 years back
again it is never mentioned that shunsui was a kid 1000 years back... he used to be kid when he studied in yamaji academy (which was atleast 1000 years back) and from there he became g13 captain under yamaji... after yamaji became CC of g13 he possibily couldnt have been teaching at his academy too...so any student of yamaji academy is atleast more than 1000 years old...we can just conclude that both the flashbacks (shunsui and sasakibe one) are more than 1000 year back... and most probably when yamaji became CC then sasakibe joined as his vice-captain and shunsi,ukitake and unohana as captains...i.e., excatly 1000 years back...
quincies were not defeated 1000 years ago... their main annhilation took some 200 years back...1000 year ago incident is related to Bach only...
byakuya never says that sasakibe achieved bankai before shunsui was born...its sasakibe achieved bankai before shunsui and ukitake did...
Last edited by dex; January 20, 2013 at 07:21 PM.
Sasakibe hadn't used his bankai in 2000 years according to Driscoll. The flashback, therefore, would have to be 2000 years ago, since Sasakibe never used his bankai since then.
Here, Yama doesn't have the scar left by Sasakibe's bankai. It's likely Sasakibe and Shunsui are relatively the same age. Sasakibe is probably older.
Furthermore, Sasakibe at least had his bankai before Gotei 13 was formed. So he's at least 1000 years old.
Yamamoto....he was probably pushing 3000.
So.....Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, and Sasakibe are all relatively the same age. Sasakibe and Unohana are probably the oldest out of those four.
Last edited by Exodi; January 20, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
Captain-Commander has kept his position as the way it is for about a millennium. The first generation of bloodthirsty captains should also be part of that time, since they were referred to as a generation of Gotei 13. After the Academy's foundation and the following graduations, Kyouraku and Ukitake became captains. Judging by that, they are most likely younger than 1000 years old. At the very least, that number is an upper limit.
But we also know that Sasakibe mastered the Bankai 2000 years ago. To be fair, Sasakibe always looked more like an elderly man compared to those two.
As my conclusion, I theorize that this isn't an inconsistent timeline info, but rather, a different interpretation of Byakuya's words exist. I'm assuming what he meant there when he said he mastered the Bankai before those two wasn't about age, but rather the time that has passed for the effort to achieve that.
that is what i believe...shunsui and ukitake are around same age as sasakibe coz shunsui flashback yamaji does not have a scar of sasakibe banaki... it could be like 100-200 year difference between sasakibe and shunsui... but shunsui and ukitake are definitely much older than 1000 years atleast or 2000 years is what is believe now...
---------- Post added at 06:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 AM ----------
And the more accurate translations do say sasakibe learned bankai long before shunsui and ukitake were born.
It wasn't said shunsui was a kid however context suggests that timeline. For one thing, yamamoto already had the scar chojiro have him. Since chojiro mastered bankai long before kyoraku and shunsui were born it leaves a gap for quite a large margin. Then we have the actual conversation between yamamoto and kyoraku. More so, yamamoto also seems rather aged in comparison to when we saw the chojirou flashback.
The conversation would seem to reference yamamoto being the asshole juhabach mentioned when genryusai died. In this regard it makes perfect sense that conversation is going on after the quincy were defeated 1000 years ago. Shunsui is not necessarily exactly 1000 years old however that is at least the maximum age he can have at the moment.
Also, based on what we have seen it is obvious that there have been several quincy wars. Mayuri specifically made a point of saying that the current war is the result of yamamoto not killing juhabach 1000 years ago. The arc is called the 1000 year blood war. Juhabach makes references to things which happened 1000 years ago. In that regard the quincy that were defeated 1000 years ago are as far as we know an entirely different branch of quincy. Maybe the ishida branch quincy are some sort of renmant from the ones defeated 1000 years ago or they split however as a whole we have little reason to believe the ishida branch quincy and vandenreich were one and the same.
I think next chapter will switch to Aizen and how he escapes. He probably knew he'd be beaten by Ichigo and made plans to break free just in case. I think his true goal was to acquire power to beat the Quincies since they're powerful as hell, being able to kill Yamamoto. He'll probably team up with Ichigo and take on the Quincies, along with Kenpachi and Byakuya. But for next chapter, I think we'll either see Aizen breaking out or some kind of indication that he'll break out or is planning to break out.
Aizen is awesome like that.
If there was no direct connection, would it had made sense for Kirge to mention Vollständig being developed from letzten Stil, with Sogen Ishida keeping the old form. Yet it's weird that Bach seemingly only appeared in the the fight 1000 years ago, not the one 200 year back. Maybe they had contact until the annihilation, but remained in the Vandenreich until prepared for revenge.
Okay, so we have have seen 2 things in this chapter; Ichigo and Renji fighting the Asauchi, and Zaraki fighting Unohana in a fight to the death!...
One thing I found interesting that Nimaiya said is "yeah, not quite, but we'll just say that for now" when Ichigo asked if the Asauchi they were fighting were manifestations of the Zanpakutou; in other words, they're not manifestations. My theory is that the Spiritual Beings within the inner world are actually projections of the physical beings they're fighting now; when a Shinigami communicates with their "inner" being, they're actually communicating telepathically to one of the beings shown here.
As for Zaraki and Unohana's death match, I think it's going to be interrupted by Aizen, as he's supposed to be residing in the same place that they're fighting now.
I don't believe those two were around before the foundation of the Gotei 13. If they were around back then, they would be like 1000 when they joined the academy, which isn't something probable as it seems.
In the most likely case, Kyouraku and Ukitake weren't captains in the first generation. Gotei 13 was established with that gang led by Captain-Commander and the academy graduates, beginning with Kyouraku and Ukitake were the first to replace them later on.
---------- Post added at 05:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 AM ----------
Breaking out isn't an option, but SS might be forced to unleash the evil to defeat the big evil at some point.
Dont forget the sasakibe flashback shows how the capt commander is a teacher of martial arts at that moment. In a dojo. Also the capt commander in the view of the first Gotei he looks about the same. So its very well possible this is all from 2000 years + ago.
Isn't that Sasakibe's scar on Yama's forehead in the middle panel? So Sasakibe is older than Shunsui by at least some time. Plus, the implication is that the flashback with young Shunsui took place well after Yama last used his Bankai and the last known time that happened was during his last clash with Juha Bach 1000 year ago.
Then again, Yamamoto said Shunsui and Ukitake were the first graduates of the Shinigami Academy to become Captains, and given how old the Academy is (actually I forget - how old is it?) that would make them fairly old, too.
---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------
Next, based mostly on the look of the character, I would assume Sasakibe to be the second oldest. Followed by Unohana, not only because she was a founding member, but even before we found that out I knew this, because of how Shunsui and Ukitake talked to her, as if she was an elder or at least someone above them (in age).
Next would of course be Shunsui and Ukitake, with Shunsui being a bit older. Maybe Kenpachi is relatively close in age to these people as well, we know he has to be older than 1000 years because he found Unohana before, and it seems she was relatively different after the war, unless of course they fought after the war and it took a while before she became Retsu.
I am still a bit confused about this timeline though. The "Divisions" now known as the Gotei 13 were thugs, and it seems they were this until the war were they found justice in defeating the Quincy. But it seems that more than a 1000 years ago, with Shunsui, and more than 2000 years ago with Sasakibe, Yama was a teacher. There was of course the Soul Society (or in some form of a SS) before the war, but if Yama had a band of thugs, why was he a teacher as well.
Maybe I missed something and someone can fill me in.
I question strikes me when I think of Unohana. Do you guys and gals think she has always had this murderous tendincy, even as Retsu? Or Did she actually change and the return of the Quincy and everything that came with that, changed that?
I'm under the impression that she actually found this justice and changed, but the return of the Quincy made her revert. But I know another who believes that she was just hiding her true self all this time.
Oh and one more addition to this post. People probably already spoke on this, but anyone else wonder if the way to get a Zanpakuto was through its creator, then how did Ichigo get one? Yes he got stabbed, but he didn't keep Rukia's. Also, the creator doesn't look that old, unless there is a time difference where he lives, compared to Yama, how did the Shinigami before him get one?
Of course the idea of someone creating a Zanpakuto changes how we all think of them, maybe you have this power but a Zanpakuto is just a way of using it.
I'm under the impression that these Asauchi are mimicked after a people or family that is born with them, like Ichigo.
When Oetsu mentioned that the Asauchi were angry because of how Renji and Ichigo treated their own Zanpakuto, all I could think of, when he was naming off how they are treating their Zanpakuto as "partners, tools, pets, etc" that you are supposed to treat them as if they are you, because that is how they are formed.
Anyways, I know that was a lot, feel free to break it into even more pieces! I'll stick around for a while.