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I think Genthru, Phinx would probably fall into the trap of the Bomber. Phinx isn't the smartest of the Troupe so I think it is possible.
If we pit Phinx nen against Bomber's standard attacks not the time bomb I think Genthru still comes out on top.
His Little Flower is too powerful against Phinx relatively simple hatsu. I suspect that Genthru is on about the same level in terms of speed.
In terms of normal human strength Phinx wins there but nen ability wise he cant even do anything against Genthru
Haha I see. But none of the troupe members have ever had a REAL battle exept for Feitan and Uvo, they usually just crush grunt characters. I'd like to see the Troupe have trouple fighting against an opponent. Heck I'd love to see Hisoka have a serious match. But the hiatus is killing me. So many things running through my head.
Before Genthru finishes explaining his ability, Phinks has already broken his neck.
See even if it was that fast. Wouldn't his Nen come after him after being killed?
Gensuru's explosion move is a classic 'move that only works on people weaker than you', because he's doing X damage while preventing X damage to himself (or he blows up his own hand up with the same move). This means he expands 2X APs to do X points of damage, and thus again an equal level opponent this attack will never work unless he happened to be able to grab say someone's face, but if you could do that you can just stab/punch someone in the face too and that'll definitely do a ton of damage too.
Gensuru's other move is pretty much irrelevent because after the condition is triggered you can just shout "I caught the bomber!" on the same time he says "Bomber" and it'll cancel out indefinitely, and even if this doesn't work for whatever reason it's hard to see the two not having any physical contact for an hour unless they actually fought in Greed Island (in that case Gensuru can use one of the cards to just get away and wait for Phinx to get blown up).
On the other hand Phinx's special move is likely useless because spinning his arm in circles is a rather big give away and in fact this is one of the few opportunities Gensuru would have to grab somewhere vital with his ability. Phinx is #2 in arm strength in Spiders so I'll give him an edge in hand to hand. This is going to be a fight where whoever uses their special ability first is likely to lose because their specials are basically useless against each other.
---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------
It's hard to say. Gon was able to withstand little flower because of his manipulation of nen. On the other hand, Phinx (along with other members of the troupe) is probably more experienced using nen, and may be able to stand the blow of Genthuru's little flower. Plus, even without using nen, if he had the chance to, he could probably snap Genthuru's neck.
Then again, Phinx is pretty headstrong, albeit a powerhouse. I could see him making a small mistake and thus giving Genthuru the upperhand. But, he's not an idiot to the point where he couldn't figure out Genthuru's abilities after a few observations.
Overall, in most situations, I will have give this one to Phinx. But, it wouldn't be an impossible win for Genthuru if he had a sound, well-thought out strategy.
Phantron is correct: "Little Flower" is a technique whose design is fundamentally flawed, as he needs to be able to resist it himself. Which means that if he fights against a reinforcement user of equal nen, the Reinforcement user needs 40% less nen to counter it than Genthru does. As Genthru is powerful enough to be able to counter two little flowers at once (one in each hand), a "30%" defence is enough to utterly resist "Little Flower" (if you are reinforcement), which leaves 70% for attack, a game over.
Of course, that is "If Phinks is a reinforcement user of the same level Genthru is", and Phinks is actually quite a bit more powerful than that.
It doesn't even take into account his Hatsu too (i would be amused if Phinks dies because he uses his Hatsu and gets hit while vulnerable).
With the way Phinx's abilty works there is literally no reason for him to use his ability if he is ahead in the straight up melee game. Since he is presumably Reinforcement while Gensuru is definitely NOT Reinforcement there's no conceiveable reason he should lose in a fist fight. Given the Spiders are all aware of the concept of using your special moves unnecessary = bad idea, you'd pretty much just expect Phinx to punch Gensuru to death without ever using any other ability because there's no reason for him to risk it.
It's kind of interesting that almost all the Spider's ability are the 'beat up the weak' type and would be practically useless against stronger opponents. If Phinx, a Reinforcement user, needs extra power to defeat someone, it implies his opponent likely outclasses him physically by a significant margin, and since speed and power comes hand in hand in HXH that guy is also probably faster than him. So in the time it takes him to spin his arm, his faster + stronger opponent can simply punch him out of his charging motion, if not kill him outright (Phinx has to be more vulnerable than usual while charging up his move). Though I guess it does make sense given Spiders are all strong individually plus they also work in numbers, so there's not much reason for them to devise moves on defeating people stronger than they are.
Phinx has had a proper fight during the Ant arc and judging by that fight he would not stand a chance against Genthru.
The thing many of you forget to consider is that in terms of strength and speed Genthru would be on equal footing with Phinx.
On top of that Genthru is a genius strategist and could very easily outsmart Phinx. I could imagine Phinx not even getting a single move on Genthru if he planned things well enough.
For example consider this, Genthru has the speed of Phinx, he could quite easily use Little Flower on Phinx head and destroy him within an instant.
This is the man who murdered an entire group of guys instantly with his time bomb maneuver. He is capable of more than we could ever understand.
Genthru is quite simply a genius. The only reason he lost to Gon is the fact that he underestimated him due to the fact he is a child.
He never considered Gon a threat and that was his undoing.
On the other hand against Phinx a grown man with nen capabilities Genthru will see him as a threat so he will obviously not underestimate him in the same way as he did to Gon. Also it's worth mentioning that Genthru could easily take half of the Troupe members, possibly even Chrollo.
As you yourself said, there is no reason for Phinks to use his Hatsu here, as simply using Ken = I Win for him.
Genthru's ability is designed around Bullying, not a serious fight. His whole schtick is not head-on fight, but Bullying of weaker oponents.
Let's assume, here, that PHinks and Genthru have equal physical and Nen Stats:
Genthru is Materliazation, so if he has a level 10 reinforcement ability and a 2000 apparent Aura (not talking reserves), then he needs around 1000 aura to be 'immune' to little flower (as he can be immune to it in two different places at once), and that's assuming "Little Flower" itself doesn't take any aura.
Phinks is reinforcement, so this means that 1200 of his aura in reinforcement is equal to 2000 of Genthru (if both are level 10 reinforcement). This means that as long as he keeps 30% defense (and Ken is a defence of 50% for the whole body) he is immune to little flower. Even if Genthru grabs his head and does a hundred little flower, it will do nothing.
OTOH, Phinks punching Genthru = K.O
And That's if they are equals. Phinks is almost certainly Genthru's superior.
I'm going to ask for proof on this. Is there any indication on Genthru's raw speed or strength?Quote:
What we know about Phinx is that he's #2, behind Uvo, for arm wrestling. He was able to dodge Killua's rock throws and follow his speed in the room he captured him in. He's definitely not the quickest one of the bunch, but he's not a slowpoke. He's also a member of one of the strongest groups in the series.
Plus, he's experienced in nen as well. He likely knows kou and everything else. He uses kou to stop little flower, throws Genthru off guard, and punches him in the face knocking him out. That'd be my prediction for the fight anyway.
How so? He'd stand a chance against some, one-on-one (like, the very weakest ones), but it wouldn't be an easy fight by any means. Chrollo's only downfall would be if he wanted his ability, and therefore didn't fight him full force.Quote:
Last edited by kindredxiuxiu; December 27, 2012 at 09:14 PM.
Here's where the school itself plays a huge part. Phinx is presumably Reinforcement due to his position on arm wrestling chart (if not that means he's even more powerful than he appears to beat every other member of Spiders who are 1-away from Reinforcement). I believe Gensuru is Materialization from the official sourcebook, and it is obvious that he cannot be Reinforcement base type. So, Phinx will always have an edge in hand-to-hand combat.
Now we have to look at the Hatsus. Phinx's Hatsu is actually pretty useless, but not AS useless as Gensuru's in this particular matchup. The typical equation for doing damage looks like this:
Attacker: 100 (physical base) + 100 (maximum aura modifier) = 200 offense, 100 AP used
Defender: 100 (physical base) + 100 (maximum aura modifier) = 200 defense, 100 AP used
In the case of Little Flower it looks like this:
Attacker: 100 (physical base) + 50 (explosion damage done by Little Flower) + 50 (to guard your own hand from being blown up) = 150 offense, 100 AP used
Defender: 100 (physical base) + 100 (maximum aura modifier) = 200 defense, 100 AP used
Little Flower has literally no chance to penetrate the defense of an equivalent level user. In fact the defender would simply use 50 AP for defense and then immediately retaliate with the 50 AP he didn't need to use on defense.
Now of course, if you used Little Flower on someone's face that might do enough damage to win the fight even fully defended, but that scenario is absurd. If Gensuru attempted punch Phinx, would Phinx say, "I'm going to concentrate all my aura on my face to guard his fist!"? No, of course he's either going to dodge it or block it with his hand, and Little Flower requires a relatively large amount of aura concentrated in the hands, so of course Phinx will also shield his hand with whatever amount he thinks is appropriate. Given you have to spend twice the AP on every attack (you need an equal amount to protect yourself from its effect), it's almost inconceiveable Phinx on the defending end would misjudge the AP he sees by a factor of 2. That is, if he sees 100 AP worth of aura, he'd have to defend with less than 50 AP to even take damage because that 100 has to be split 50/50 to protect Gensuru himself, and that'd be a gross miscalculation at the level of expertise we're talking about.
Further we know everything related to physical offense/defense favors Reinforcement, so Phinx might only need to spend 40 AP to defend against Gensuru's 100 AP split into 50/50. Certainly he would never need to spend more than 50 AP to defend against that attack as his school is inherently better at physical offense/defense than any other school.
Incidentally Gensuru would have a better chance against Kuroro than Phinx even though Kuroro is almost certainly stronger than Phinx, because Kuroro is Specialization which means he comes out behind in these straight up physical offense/defense exchanges. We can assume both the book and whatever ability he picked from the book must use a constant portion of his total aura reserves to maintain, so Gensuru might be able to simply blow up Kuroro's hand if it requires more than 50% of Kuroro's AP to maintain whatever ability he is using plus the book, and since Gensuru is definitely not Specialization either, it means he has an edge over Kuroro in a direct exchange.
In fact, you can pretty much say that if you keep at least 50% of your AP for defense at all times, there's literally no way you'll take any damage from Gensuru assuming you have equal physical attributes. Kuroro is one of the few characters that might not be able to do this, since as long as the cost for maintaining the book plus whatever technique exceeds 50% of his aura output, then he cannot use 50% to defend himself by defintion. Of course he can also cancel the book, but looking at the fight against Zeno, it sure doesn't look like hand-to-hand is his area of expertise, nor would it make sense given what school he is.
---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
It's similar in Feitan's case, where he was fighting someone who he cannot hurt with Ko. This implies a staggering physical difference (and consequently speed), but apparently Zanza gave him enough time to prepare his move while every Spider was shouting "RUN AWAY BIG MOVE INCOMING". Yes the Ants happen to have a lot of 'high strength low speed' combos but presumably he didn't learn these moves to fight against such an unusual combination of attributes. We'd expect if a human took a Ko head on without taking damage, that guy must be way better physically such that it shouldn't even be a question whether your opponent is faster than you.
Shizuku's move is useless against a stronger opponent by herself because given how far away she is from physical combat schools, she could not possibly inflict a bleeding wound no matter what against any reasonable opponent. I simply see no way Shizuku could inflict a bleeding wound on say Phinx, or Hisoka, or any of the primary combatant members of the Spider when she lacks the strength to beat Gon who barely learned aura. Yes we can then talk about investing in legendary weapons to bypass her physical weakness but then you get the conclusion that poisoned knife > all techs. That said it is one of the best technqiues in HXH when working together with other characters.
I don't think you can say Phinx will be able to guard Little Flower with his head. It'd be like saying a Specialization user uses Ko on his fist and a Reinforcement user uses Ko on his face and we have the face beating the fist just because Reinforcement is better at physical attack/defense. Of course nobody in his right mind would guard an attack with his face or head when he can use his hand instead, and I see no reason why Phinx would leave himself with an opening that allows Gensuru to grab his head.
GENTHRU guard little flower with his gyo alone, a gyo that is less than 50% of his own power. When he does this, it guards against little flower to such an extent that it doesn't even damage his gloves.
Are you saying that somehow, gloves with weaker reinforcement applied to them are stronger than Phinx's head with better reinforcement?
Edit: Actually, i am incorrect, i don't know why i thought Genthru had gloves. It doesn't change that both his hands and his jacket cuffs are intact though.
Here is the thing: Phinx's technique, as well as Fei-tan's or Shalnark's, or ONLY USABLE if the enemy is stronger than you are. Fei-tan for obvious reasons, but Phinx and Shalnark's too: Phinx has no reason whatsoever to increase his KO further if he is already stronger than the enemy, and same for Shalnark and his own tech.Quote:
After all, there is no reason Phinx can't move while doing his own tech- it's like saying Gon's tech is useless, when we know that Gon's "flawed" technique actually can be used if you are smart enough (see knuckle fight).
Last edited by Tombadgerlock; December 27, 2012 at 11:21 PM.
A person's attack/defense is modified by the underlying physical attribute of whatever part is being used. Your face is not going to be as physically strong as your fist and it's unlikely to guard against anyone else's fist with your face regardless of the aura difference. While you can argue a person's head is actually pretty darn hard, it's also by far the part of your body where you'd take the most damage on any successful blow. When Killua attacked Machi in the dark, she blocked her head with her hands while leaving her heart unguarded. The logic is clearly that she figures she's got a layer of muscle to absorb the damage from a hit on her heart, so she'll take chances there (Killua's obviously trying to rip her heart out) rather than having her head hit by a direct blow. There's a clear implication that the head is indeed the most vulnerable part of the human body in HXH.
I simply can't see a scenario like say Phinx just headbutt Gensuru, and Gensuru grabbed Phinx's head and try to blow him up but Phinx power through that anyway. Reinforcement users have a huge advantage, but not so much as that they can test if their head is harder than the opponent's strongest attack. Of course Phinx isn't crazy so he's not going to try that either, but Gensuru can win if he makes an unfathomable mistake of letting someone grab his head/face, which would be pretty much fatal against anyone to begin with.
For the movement during the charge up attacks, I'm going to call plot immunity here because if you can always just run around at full speed while charging (and Gon obviously can do that) then why on earth does Gon come to a complete stop in a move that is supposed to leave him extremely vulnerable? Why doesn't he just do like when he's fighting owl where he starts up charging from far away and then simply runs up to his opponent with his charged fist to deliver doom once the charging is complete? Whether it's Gon, Phinx, or Ubogin's move, you're pretty much looking at a power output comparable, possibly exceeding Ko. There's no such thing as a free lunch in HXH. Ko is a very dangerous move to use in HXH. A whiffed Ko can easily lead to instant death. I know these moves are basically meant to be 'totally safe version of Ko' and I think that's an inherent contradiction in HXH. You can't generate Ko level of power without taking Ko level of risk. It's only a matter of plot convenience that we don't see users get hit out of their Ko-equivalent moves and die instantly because that wouldn't make a very interesting fight.
At any rate the uselessness of such moves is more because the user is Reinforcement. If someone requires more power output, they're obviously incredibly strong physically and certainly outclass whatever Reinforcement-based character we're talking about here. Even if you assume you can get away with Ko-level power without Ko-level risk, you'd have to assume that you're at least more vulnerable than normal while spinning your arm in circles or doing a little ritual for Jajaken. You're fighting someone with superior physical ability than you, so if they hit you with their superior physical attack while you're doing your charging motion, then that should be sufficeint to at least knock you out of the charging motion. Dodging is ineffective because in HXH, against human opponent, higher physical strength usually implies higher speed, and again I don't see people dodging well while spinning arms in a circle or doing a mini ritual either. I mean I get that if you're cornered you don't really got a choice but these moves are only really effective if you got a friend who can buy you some time while you go through whatever your charging criteria is.
---------- Post added December 28, 2012 at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was December 27, 2012 at 11:59 PM ----------
Using some numbers to illustrate, let's assume Gensuru and Phinx have equal physical abilities at the baseline.
Gensuru's fist would do 100 (base) + 60 (Materialization mod) = 160 damage
Now how much damage does Little Flower do on this scale? It's not going to be more than 160 (because that'd require extra power coming out of thin air after factoring he has to pay double for any damage done), but it's not going to be less than 100 (his fist without aura) or there's literally no reason to use this move. Little Flower's damage output would have to fall somewhere between 100-160 on this scale, and presumably the explosion property of Little Flower makes it preferable to doing just straight up 160 damage with a normal punch. Both can be easily defended with say, a hand using at most 160 defense, but I don't see 'face + 100% aura' defending against that. If you got a fight between two equally powerful characters, where one is allowed to use aura on his face against a guy who can use his fist but not aura, I'm going to bet the guy who can use the fist over the guy who can use his face. Of course nobody actually fights like this, but having stronger physical attack/defense overall doesn't mean you don't have to guard your vulnerable parts.