How does Minato pose any threat to EMS Madara or Hashirama? I have heard a lot of non-sense in this regard from Mintao fans, as to how his FTG Kunai provides some sort of radius so he can always teleport inside Sussano, how he can magically seal sussano...nothing but deluded musings of die-hard fans.
Sarutobi is strong but there is not way that he can take madara , madara beat the hell of a strong muu and a young oonoki and even dan commented that the only one that could defeated madara was the first hokage hashirama..
I mean besides of course as the plot is leading sasuke after a power up or naruto after full transformation of the perfect kyuubi mode or whatever the tails beast gave to naruto and obito betraying madara but it won't success and die trying..
Madara's Susano was not showed to be busted. It got hit, that is it. Next Madara is showed CHILLING:
Not giving a f*** about what is happening.
Seriously there is no way something that could not even KO Kisame (even going trough shark jutsu) is going to anihilate MADARA'S Susano... Seriously they needed a combo from Tsunade, Raikage and Tsuck (3 Kages) to even blast part of it away.
Then of course he can't exacly instantly repair it but its damn fast... Just think how fast he can pop extra hands or whatever. Then let's keep in mind the clones that could stick on Susano's exterior just w8ting for whatever jutsu that is coming its way to be absorbed.
Only way to stop Madara now its trough plot. He is going to kill himself, go human again or the plot is going to make him forget everything he can do so the alliance can take him down... After Obito not making a bloody hole in his mask to shoow those OP Katons i am not going to be suprised about anything.
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 01:52 AM.
1 yes hiruzen is called the god of shinobi but compared to oonoki he looks weak.
2. hashirama gets a new power up every week
3. the senju and uchiha are supposed equals -.-
4. raikiri was kakashis original move but the 3rd raikage has a 10x bettter version
5. edo tensei is supposed to revive the person as they died but for some reason madaras young
6. hashirama cells make you jesus
i could go on forever but what im saying is kishi constatly changes his ideas and disregards old ones so how can you really look back and try to make a claim when it gets shit on disregarded in later chapters?
The story lacks consistency to the point where its hard to have a good debat eon naruto. 1/3 of the people go by the databooks, one goes by what they see and the other third goes by whatever they want to happen. how can you defend something thats been in the databook when the manga shows something different? you cant.
Naruto isnt really a manga we can have a serious debate about anymore due to the constant changes, what i meant was you gotta sit back week by week and just accept things for how they are.
for example: hashirama started off as a nin that could only use wood jutsu, now his cells induce rapid growth, rapid healing, access to wood jutsu and control over bijuu NONE of which was stated anywhere and were just thrown at us as soon as madara showed up so yeah, im saying disregard the databooks and just read it cause putting to much thought into the manga only causes stress cause lets face it... it aint as good
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; December 30, 2012 at 04:28 PM.
He never changed a thing about Sarutobi though. In fact, where ever I look, I find more proofs that he (Kishimoto) had and has no intention of taking back that statement at all but instead, just keep supporting it. Just like Madara (Edo Madara) and possibly Hashirama, Sarutobi was perfect in every concept with the exceptions of physical concepts, which is obviously due to his age. As he was stated to be far FAR more powerful in his prime. So the thing is he was indeed up Hashirama and EMS Madara's level (If not beyond).
Look at Tsukisage, Danzo.... How much did old age effected them? Then how much of an increase can Sarutobi get? Going by what he showed vs Orochimaru even a 2x increase (not possible but meh) and Madara would just use his big food to STOMP him. I don't care for all the hype. I am looking at how Madara in perfect Susano owed the 5 KAGES completly... There is NO way Sarutobi > 5 Kages... Don't care for his hype. Going by what he showed it just not possible.
Just like I said, hiruzen may be weak compared to oro/oonoki from what the manga has shown, but we don't know anything on his entire caliber yet. So we should wait on kishi's revelation about hiruzens power. If kishi said that he's god of shinobi, then he'll going to have godly power. Well, he was trained directly by hashirama and tobirama, so maybe assuming that he has a power comparable to hashirama and madara isn't impossible at all.
And just so you know, Danzou's case is entirely different as he had Hashirama's cell to extend his life span.
Tsukisage? Again VERY old, probably older then Sarutobi and Danzo. He even has back problems.
So if 2 elder people like this 2 are outperforming Sarutobi by a mile... Yeah you should be giving damn. The problem was not with age exacly but with what said age did to him, to his chakra capacity. Considering the lame jutsus he used it can't even be compared to how much chakra the other 2 elder people used.
Also do you know how Orochimaru defeated the Kazekage? Do you know what he used there? If you do please show it to me. Also Curbstomped? Please show me your facts.
I don't think it was only age. It was a combination of his age with his love for Orochimaru and later his adoration for his mentors (the Hokages).
Those 2 Hokage where brain dead. That is in no way a real, good feat for him. The tactics they used, the jutsus they did... All horibly used.... They put him in a darkness genjutsu and all they did is charge at him with bloody KUNAIS. Considering the jutsus we now know Hashirama had he should defeat Sarutobi by himself asuming hed used the IQ of a bloody monkey.
Then to even take them down he used a kill yourself overpowered seal as he could not do it under his own power. That was more like the DG power then him. He summoned that thing there and gave his soul to it so IT can seal those 2. Yeah it was HIS jutsu but still. It was no diferent then selling your soul to the Devil to get something in return.
Then let's asume he was better in real life, more then 2x better its imposible... Do you actualy think he would stand a chanse vs Madara when Madara with his ultimate Susano was completly curbstomping 5, that is 5 Kages? You think in his prime he was better then 5 bloody Kages working togeder? No God damn way. The moment perfect Susanoo popped the Kages where bugs before Madara... Sarutobi would be a bug to him just as well.
Now Hashirama countering THAT Susano + Kurama defenetly puts him ahead of Sarutobi... Hell Sarutobi with an army (the entire village) where doing CREP NOTHING to Kurama. Yes he did not have any special jutsu to take it down(like Hashirama) but to fair so bad vs it and just delay it hoping for Minato to save there buts... Yeah.
There is no way for me to belive Sarutobi is > curent 5 Kages or Sarutobi > Hashirama>Madara (EMS). There is just no way you can get here under any logical deduction.
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 03:09 AM.
Danzo one way or another had his life span extended by Hashirama's cells, even if he sealed it, it's already in his freaking body and already extended his life span. And what did Danzo do that is very super compared to what Sarutobi did ? Lets see :
Danzo got bested by a 16 year old kid going blind.
Sarutobi defeated two former immortal Kages and a guy who is no less than a Kage himself.
Very impressive Danzo, Very impressive.
What about it ? He was still considered weaker than an old Sarutobi.Quote:
Again Danzo is in no way outperforming him, and again he had hashirama's cell which made Izanagi less tiring than a fireball Jutsu. Onoki was not stated to have gotten weaker from age was he ? And again was considered weaker than Sarutobi.Quote:
Here he is making a short work out of him. And even was perfectly fine, going to Konoha to fight another Kage. And the thing here, Tsunade is respected by all Kages and even now she is fighting on equal ground with them (if i say, equal to A, stronger than Mei and Gaara, weaker than Onoki). And she is the weakest of the Sannin by far. Why wouldn't Orochimaru stomp these Kages exactly ? That alone shows how different Sarutobi was from other Kages (with maybe the exception of Onoki).Quote:
Here is the answer to this and everything else :Quote:
Why would I need a logical deduction...when the freaking answer is already there ? It's useless for me to start a discussion that the answer for was already given and obvious.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 31, 2012 at 04:05 AM.
If the plot needed him around ( like, say, Hashirama ), rest assured Hiruzen would've lived up to his hype
Irrelevant. If old age would be a problem with chakra capacity as big as you claim for Sarutobi then it would effect Tsuck and Danzo to. There is no need to be stated. Old age is a general issue with anybody.... Its not like its somethingspecific to Sarutobi.Quote:
Yeah, his hand would survive longer then Danzo's other parts of his body... Do you understand why that hand and DNA WHERE SEALED OFF the rest OF HIS BODY? So the effects of that hand would NOT SPREAD to the rest of his body. The hand has NO effect on the "rest of Danzo" when its sealed. That is the point.Quote:
The hand DOES NOT extend his life span.
Are you refering to Sasuke defeating Danzo when Danzo was missing his main weapon (the sharingan in his head that he was holding of for Madara).Quote:
Then he was not having visual problems at that time... Then Sasuke given Sarutobi's feats would 1 SHOOT HIM with Amaterasu before he can DO SHIT. Get that? Sarutobi get's 1 shoot by Sasuke.. Also a 16 years old? Ha how many people do you think Naruto can solo right now? How about Sasuke? I can insert a long list here. The fact that he is 16 years old is not relevant. He is one of the most powerfull caracters in this damn manga. If not for Kamui saving Kakashi he would 1 shoot Kakashi with 1 arrow... Of course Kakashi would have died from the second arrow or the 3'th but who cares.
Sarutobi defeated to midless puppets that had the tactics of a newborn.
Orochimaru was also deafeated with the same seal you up plot no jutsu. Not a direct fight... He defeated Orochimaru with the DG seal... And even then Orochimaru was just stopped from attacking Konoha BUT Orochimaru was left standing and SARUTOBI DEAD. In the end Orochimaru won the fight but lost the war. He was ALIVE and only missing hands and Sarutobi DEAD on the floor.
Sasuke would have no problem replicating and doing way better then Sarutobi even if he knew the DG seal. Sasuke would tank anything those 3 can trow at him (asuming they use the same crep they used vs Sarutobi) and then seal them easy.
Again stating Danzo is below him because of Sasuke is lol.
Hype, crep no care. Tsukisage would turn him to dust by just reasing his hands. Tsukisage anihilated an army of Madara's with Susanos. Tsukisage can blow up an entire damn island with a single jutsu.Quote:
How beat up was Orochimaru before getting grabed by the DG seal? Not even 1 bit. Also what does that 1 pic show how he was defeated? That was more assasinated then defeated in battle. Did you see any signs on him of combat? He even had his robe on FFS.Quote:
Also why do you show me Anime fillers? Those are not relevant. The manga showed this:
He could have Kabuto with him, Kimimaro and a ton other people... Seriously they where assasinated.
I also found this in the wiki:
A insinuated that the Fourth Kazekage's death may have been the result of a secret plot of Danzō Shimura with the Akatsuki, more exactly Orochimaru who at the time was no longer a member of the organisation.
I don't remember where it was stated and to lazy to dig trough the manga so take it how you whant.
No its no answer. Its HYPE. That is no answer. There is no way Sarutobi is stronger then 5 Kages put togeder.Quote:
Now i would also find it funny if Sarutobi whent from what he showed in part 1 to mountain busting... Hell he was showed in part 2 vs Kurama and the best he could do is buy time and hope for Minato to save them...
Then we all know how hype goes, that is the flavor of the week and what Kishi needs, the relevant stuff is to compare what they can do and not the "name tag".
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 05:12 AM.
He needed the DG seal, because his opponents were immortals in case you didn't notice.Quote:
And his use of Ninjutsu, thus stopping him from being a ninja and eventually leading him to the most disgraceful death (though he's still alive, he's like an ant with no power to defend itself).Quote:
That was Ee simply guessing how The 4th KK got killed, it's not supposed to be believed.Quote:
Or he could've just killed him and leave. Seeing as there is no reason to assume he didn't.
Can you please tell me who the hell said they have tactics of a newborn ? Where was it stated they aren't as powerful as they originally are ? Where was it said that erasing their emotions somehow make them weaker ? Of course it's just you assuming that.Quote:
What are you trying to do here ? You oppose a statement from the author himself with only your opinion ?
The author said he was the strongest among the five Hokages, and you reply to that is "hype".
He was also stated as the most powerful of the 5 Kages, and your reply is "Hype this guy will one shot him".
In part 2, Kishimoto confirmed him as "godly" and worthy of sharing the same title as the SO6P, and your reply is "hype".
Am I to ask who are we readers to question the word of the author ?
Why are you even trying with that ? Every where I go there is direct proof supporting him being the strongest Hokage. Manga, Databooks, Fanbooks, stats, every where there is a fact about him. And your opposing that saying the author is lying ? You are free not to like it but just don't make up weird excuses.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 31, 2012 at 06:28 AM.
So it seems that most people completely discard the possibility of Hiruzen being the strongest Shinobi right? But I'd like to disagree as few people did...
1 - It was stated by the author. If I do create a world things are as I say not as other people want/perceive/understand/interpret it. If Kishimoto says Udon is the strongest shinobi and could kick Madara's ass, then that's it, no arguing, HIS world, HIS rules.
2 - While there are different levels of Edo Tensei there is nothing indicating that Hashirama and Tobirama were pathetic versions of themselves, as far as we know they were fully powered.
3 - Why did we not see Hiruzen's full power? If he was the strongest (and he was), do you really think that any barrier would protect Konoha from a "Madara like" battle? So Hiruzen fought with what he could without harming the village. It does not mean we can't see his power at all, the guy broke mokuton easily and despite people ignoring it he could perform a forbidden sealing while in kage bunshin and successfully applied it on two kage level enemies.
4 - Diamond body. Raikage needs a lightning armor? Hiruzen doesn't.
5 - Hiruzen being Goku. I mean, an analogy, of course. His monkey summon and his staff and of course the Saru thing. "But now we have a Son Goku Bijuu", yes we do, but does it look like Goku at all? I don't see any simmilarities.
6 - Age counts. Oonoki is a (living?) proof of that, in facts and statements. How can you say the opposite? Sometimes I miss the point some people are trying to make. The thing is that as Oonoki is more of a Ninjutsu (Kekkei Tota) user his body is not that important in attacks but still get in the way sometimes while it is a defensive crap and could get him killed by his age and broken back (mountain?)
7 - Madara is overpowered. No, I'm not just throwing away everything I said nor am I using the "overpowered" word as an excuse. Madara got powered all the way, since he was born while Sarutobi had nothing but his own abilities and effort. Let's see Madara's road to power...
I - I have a problem bro. No problem, here, take my eyes
II - I have a problem. Well let's get some bijuu, Rikudou and Uchiha weaponry, why get stronger right?
III - I have a big problem... DEATH. Oh I see, I will just give my randomly got eyes to some dude to ressurect me later.
IV - Plan failed... NOT. Instead of being ressurected as a mortal I'm an infinite chakra infinitly regenerated self controlled zombie.
V - I don't have a problem. Well get this Hashirama DNA anyway, may be useful in the future =D
Well you got the idea. Give any random ninja these things and they are good to go. See what Obito became with Madara cheating? He was a big 100% loser!
So Hiruzen is stronger than Madara or Naruto because he is more like a "Rock Lee of the talented people". He got there "by himself", I mean, without using every single tool, DNA, eye, bijuu, and so on available in the shinobi world.
If I would ressurect someone with Edo Tensei and give them all these power ups it would surely be Hiruzen. I doubt Madara could keep up with a guy that could defeat Hashirama in Taijutsu with that age, a guy who knew a thousand jutsus without Sharingan, a guy like that with Rin'negan and Mokuton would just OWN Madara's sorry ass. But not just Hiruzen, give his "power ups" to any average Shinobi like Darui and you're done. Madara is like a 5 year old child with Ironman's Suit improved by Odin's forge powered by a Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet with all the gems, he is the definition of overpower but almost any other people with the same "accesories" would do better, a LOT better.