He's not shitting on her in any way. I don't agree with xXan that she's horrible and bad as hell, but the essence of what he's saying is completely true.
If Kabuto can kite her all day long until she's worn out then thats her fault. She wasn't good enough to hit him and thus got tired, that was part of the whole fight. Saying Kabuto didn't dare to fight her until she was tired is nonsense, he was waiting for the right moment to switch from defense into offense. Just because he didn't try to hit her at first and concentrated on analyzing and dodging does not make this any less of a fight.
And yes, Kabuto was the one at disadvantage. Tsunade wanted to kill them, while Kabuto's goal was to take her alive, which means she can go full force at them like a locomotive while Kabuto has to hold back all of his lethal moves which could otherwise end the fight on the first opportunity.
Tsunade's fear of blood didn't even play a role until much later in that fight.
How about placing a four elements seal on her juggs to completely mess up her ability to mold chakra? Sorry but Orochimaru with his freak body and barfing technique is way more resilent then Tsunade. Madara took her out by ripping her body in half... when that same thing happened to Orochimaru he just smirked it off with a cocky grin. Orochimaru without handicaps (i.e failing body or useless arms) would probably win even against J-Man.Quote:
Last edited by LnDRash; January 09, 2013 at 12:35 PM.
^Stop lurking and return active, damn you
What Oro lacks is fire-power, ironically what Kabuto had in spades.
Though its unquestionable that he's superior to Tsunade, you can see it just by the fact that he lasted as long as he did fighting against 2 Sannins at the same time, and matching 4-tailed Naruto like he did
According to the wiki this is from the first databook:Quote:
But even if we assume you're right and it only works on other seals, it woulld still stand to reason that it would mess up Tsunade's Byakugō, since its based on her Yin-Seal. And well... Tsunade without her regeneration doesn't have much left in her favor :/Originally Posted by Five Elements Seal
---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------
And since my view is different than yours, so i don't think 2 more pages will mean anything.
So let's stop here. Of course in that fight Tsunade sucked, must admit. But she is not that bad.
Let's turn back to the topic, about Hashirama and Tsunade medical skills.
Last edited by n0air9x9; January 10, 2013 at 01:08 AM.
Let's be serious. When it comes to healing stuff she is the best in the manga when it comes to taijutsu and melee fighting she is horible compared to just about anybody in top tier. Kabuto himself states he is not that good at taijutsu and look what he did to Tsunade...
There he himself states how he is not that good... Tsunade is more like a tank... but when it comes down to skill... Who in this manga that is a melee fighter (top tier) is not better then her? I mean even Konohamaru probably showed better feats in dodging Pein and landing hits (perhaps its an exageration here :P).
Seriously fighting someone who is "not that good" at taijutsu and not landing 1 blow to the point you are exhausted (and this guy was also holding back)....
Tsunade is good at tanking and delivering damage when its a big target and she can actualy can hit it. Then she is good at healing... Face it Kishi hates women in his manga. Out of all the Kages Tsunade/Mei are probably the worse.
Seriously out of all the people in this manga i don't remember anybody else who can't land a blow on his target to the point he drops (not really but close) from exhaustion... I mean WTH? She must be really bad expecialy considering Kabuto by his own words is not that good in that area and he is also holding back. Perhaps shit is an exageration but seriously... She is bad.
Last edited by xXan; January 10, 2013 at 03:06 AM.
Kabuto stating he's not good at Taijutsu doesn't necessarily mean he sucks at dodging though, on the contrary, he was always shown to move with almost clinical precision.
I also wouldn't take that "I'm no good at Taijutsu" statement too literally. Databook says he has a Taijutsu Skill of 3.5, which means Kishimoto thinks of Kabutos melee combat abilities as roughly equal to Sasukes. To me it looks more like he was downplaying his abilities at that point or that he meant in comparison to melee monsters like the eye-brows, Hyugas or Tsunade. Kind of like if DBZ Cells would say he's weak just because he didn't reach his perfect stage yet, or the time when Hidan said he's the slowest in Akatsuki and then fought Shikamaru+Asuma and later even Kakashi.
One thing, Sasuke is not that good at Taijutsu but didnt he take on even Raikage? Kabuto has something to make up on his own.
I don't say she was no thinking. It's just the emotion got better of her.Quote:
Tsunade vs Kabuto: one mad, one have no emotion, just need to hold back and take her alive. -> the mind set of kabuto is better than Tsunade.
Sasuke and Raikage: both hate and pissed
Naruto and Nagato: both hatred.
the fear of blood: yes, i agree with you on that.
the sharingan use of predicting move on kakashi is something i haven't seen yet. Of course it has, but will that make him fast enough to dodge?Quote:
kakashi kamui something, i agree. But that's like the last technique he may ever want to use, so he won';t use it any chance that soon. So before that, we will see they fight first.
No, i already stated this. From the link you provided, Tsunade raw strength was already enough to crushing stones in a single hand with nothing but pure muscle power. and from the link of jiraiya i provided, she is already stronger than JMan on this side, the nature strength....Quote:
and i stated this, the lifting blade is chakra enhanced. The ground thing is my mistake.
IF he knows that the brain is the target to hit. So why don't Tsunade hit him in the brain. I mean, seriously, you think like Jiraiya can just hit it that easy. Why don't you let her hit Jiraiya.Quote:
Put a genjutu, yup, that will work. I agree with you on this. But then what?
And i already said this, Jiraiya wins Tsunade.
No, he didn't. Manda fight for him, not him. Tsunade vs Orochimaru in one scene, he wrap her neck and she punch him. That's it.Quote:
The Kurama chakra, you pushed it down, and then push yourself back before the heat take effect. Orochimaru let that Snake slike on the kyuubi chakra hand.
She can't pierce through that, I totally agree. But she can do more damage than Orochimaru could.
that will be the same problem to Orochimaru when his body reached its limit. Its not like he just do that over and over and over. So with byakugo, it will heal her.Quote:
this is totally my bad. Sr for such word.Quote:
Last edited by n0air9x9; January 10, 2013 at 06:19 AM.
Also a 3.5 in taijutsu? Gues what are the stats of Tenten in databook 2, that would be 3,5.... Databooks are just bad. Kabuto would eat Tenten alive in a taijutsu fight.
Again a guy who states himself is not that good in that area, who is HOLDING BACK and she can't land 1 bloody hit on him to the point she almost goes down from exhaustion.
Name 1 more caracter in the entire manga that is this blind.
Sasuke is not a monster in taijutsu but he is not bad... He copy- pasted Lee ability in part 1, he was moving identicly like Lee.... Also he has a SHARINGAN... That thing allows him to dodge like crazy.Quote:
Not even 1 indication or insinuation about this in the entire fight. You are just trying to find excuses.Quote:
Tsunade was at best angry. Nothing that would impair her fighting skills. You are free to find any indication from any of the combatands to support this. 1 single line. Something like Tsunade is fighting bad because she is so angry or whatever else, even a lot more subtile.Quote:
Sasuke was not mad or anything at Raikage. Raikage was going nuts on the other hand. Raikage was just in his way and completly irrelevant to him (from his vangeance POV).
Naruto was pissed as hell and Nagato was calm as hell. Yes he hated the world but in his fight with Naruto he even stoped and had a chat with him to explain his situation... This is not a man full of hate that whants you dead would do. He did not even whant Naruto dead as he needed him alive.
Sasuke vs Danzo. Sasuke so full of hate and whanting him dead its not even funny... Did that effected his fighting ability? No. Not even a little. He used his head, he formed tactics, he was finding out how Izanagi works and so on.
The basic abilities are shared by all sharingan users. The more tomoe you have the better. Sasuke whent from a punching bag to Naruto in part 1 when he had 2 tomoe to dodging ALL ATTACKS from him when he got 3 tomoe... That is just 1 tomoe of diference going from punching bag to dodging everything... You can imagine what no sharingan and sharingan can do. Yes a sharingan gives you insane ability to dodge attacks because you know what the enemy is going to do before he does it.Quote:
Diference is he knows Tsunade, he knows she can't defend herself. Kakashi would have no need to hold back to see what Tsunade can do considering he knows her.Quote:
Come one, crushing in her hand is diferent then doing damage to People like Pein. She defenedly needs her chakra attack do do anything to him... Kabuto himself was hit with no chakra attack and he was just fine. The ability that kills you in 1 single hit are her special chakra hits.Quote:
Also there is no way she is stronger then a SM user with her natural strengh. She needed chakra empowerment to jump with the sword. Naruto could SLAM THE KYUUBI like a PUPPET with his BARE HANDS... Seriously man... Naruto true a huge summon into the sky and other insane crep. I am not sure she is on Naruto's level of stg (a SM user) even with her chakra power... I most defenetly don't see Tsunade grabing Kurama with her bare hands and smashing it about...
Just look at Naruto here:
You actualy belive anybody would belive she can do that with her normal stg? That is not a sword, that is not even Gamabunta or Orochimaru's huge snake... THAT IS KYUUBI, the most powerfull biju (aside for the Juubi)....
That is the level of stg SM grants a user ...
How would JMan hit her head? Simple he is way, and i mean WAY faster then her in SM.Quote:
Pein was made clear that was keeping up because of his shared vision as JMan was poping behind him over and over...
Also when you have a ultimate Susano the size of this:
You would need to be as blind as bat to miss with it... The databook stated that this jutsu can hollow out MOUNTAINS, of course exageration there but still its an indication of how powerfull that Rasengan is.
Also what after puting her in genjutsu? Simple, smash her brain. Teleport back with her to Frog Mountain and trow some oil on her and turn her into the statue and other crep.
Manda is a ninja tool. That falls under his power and his abilities. You cant deny that Orochimaru with NO HANDS and NO JUTSUS could take on the other 2 sannin (even if Jman had problems himself).Quote:
As for Kurama... Its not heat. Its more like poison. Once it effects you it spreads. A simple swipe of the tail on Sakura was ENOUGH to put her down and have Kabuto heal her up.
Do more damage to Naruto then Oro? She can't even get close to Naruto... She would get slice in half like Oro if she get's close man...1 bijudama and she is dust.
His body got to the limit but not because of Naruto's attacks. He body was failing on him. He needed to change bodies. Kurama's damage did yo him had nothing to do with it. Orochimaru was acutaly upseat that his body expired...Quote:
I would love to see her Byakugo heal her from missing half her torso...
Well no problem. No idea who started it or how we got here but for me its irrelevant. We are debating this. This topic is about Tsunade so its not even THAT off topic. It is somewhat but still...Quote:
The sharingan is explained here:
look at that speed.
Here it is stated:
Last edited by xXan; January 10, 2013 at 09:23 AM.
I know databooks are flawed, but it gives us an indication on how Kishimoto views his own characters. Failing to display those character traits during actual manga panels is another story.
Anyway, Kabuto saying he's no good at taijutsu and then besting a top tier taijutsu user aka. Tsunade (at least thats what she's supposed to be since Kishi gave her a 5 in strength and taijutsu and treats her as powerful enough to be considered Hokage) looks to me more like a case of a guy who's having high expectations of himself. Maybe he just said that not because his taijutsu sucks, but only because his taijutsu "sucks" in comparison to his other skills.
Just for example: I'm a hobby runner and at my best I can keep on running for 3 hours straight before I reach uncomfortable levels of fatigue and strain. Some years ago I got sick and had to pause for almost a year, and once I got back into running I could only do one hour. Would you say someone who can keep on running a hour without much effort sucks at running? Probably not, but in my own opinion I sucked at that time and I kept on saying so. In fact, even now that I'm back at my best for over two years I still keep on saying I suck because I know of other guys in even better shape
Its all relative.
Well if he is as good as Tenten that slap me silly as i don't care lol.
Also for your comparison... Yeah he meant he is not that good in taijutsu. You can turn it around like that but its serious nitpiking there.
Seriously this is about her not hitting that guy like at ALL. If he was Raikage with his speed.. Ok but Kabuto? That is the point. Its how bad she is in corelation to this guy. Kabuto was not bad at taijutsu, he is good enough BUT how bad is she for not hitting him?
Tenten is part of Gai's team, it would actually make sense for her to have good taijutsu skills. Kishi just never bothered to develop her so she probably looks way worse then he intended her to be.
As for how bad Tsunade is for not hitting Kabuto: Well yeah, like I said, its her fault for not being good enough to land a hit, but lets not downplay Kabuto to make her look worse then she actually is. Getting a hit on Kakashi isn't easy either (can't think of any situation where someone actually landed a hit on that guy without immobilizing him first) and Kabuto is said to be his equal.
Kabuto may not have Raikage's speed, but he certainly knows how to move effectively and has great reflexes and awareness. If he focuses on dodging alone I can understands its not a simple feat to land a hit.
The problem with Tsunade's fighting style is that a punch is pretty predictable in nature, especially when she has to pull back her arm beforehand. It's easy to see that it's coming and even where it's aim. The fact that Tsunade relies upon her chakra to power those punches and thus is limited to that sole attack, as oppose to someone like Ee or Gai who's strength can be used in various ways, just makes it worst. She really can't disguise or bluff her attack.
I think someone should edit the title.
''Whose medical ninjutsu is better? Tsunade or kabuto'' or ''who's the strongest medical ninja? Kabuto or tsunade?
How come for others, tsunade is a garbage/trash? There's some poster who keep on insisting that tsunade's sucked because of her fight with kabuto. But for kabuto, who was hit by tsunade and disturbed/paralized his nerve, even surprised or amused how awesome tsunade is.
Kabuto : is this the power of a sannin?
Tsunade could kill kabuto at that time if she wants to. But she didn't. The moment kabuto was paralized his nerve, tsunade can punched him to death or stabbed him with a a kunai or a bamboo stick.
Just because she is part of a taijutsu team does not mean she is a good taijutsu user herself. All the ninja's have stgs in diferent areas.Quote:
Take Kurena's team. She is a genjutsu master but even so nobody and i mean nobody in her team even ends up using genjutsu.
Tenten is a long range specialist and a weapon specialist (not taijutsu) Taijutsu? Not that much. Well at least going by anything the manga showed.
I am not doing that anymore then what he himself stated in the manga. He said he is not that good in that areas so i posted that, his own words. This does not mean he is bad in that area, that means he is not that good in that area. He is probably somewhere in the middle area. Then this guy was holding back...Quote:
I am not downplaying him, just statng what happened there.
Yeah i don't see this part. At least in dodging. There is no way Kabuto can keep up in that area considering Kakashi has a sharingan. Kabuto compensates in other areas of course but in dodging... He really can't.
Of course SM Kabuto is ahead even here but i am refering to part 1 Kabuto not super Kabuto.
Simple no, but to land 0 blows and keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again when you see IT DOES NOT WORK and you are just going to drop from exhaustion.... Its something to do with Tsunade's taijutsu skills and in the end TACTICS. How stupid you must be to keep trying the same thing that you can clearly see ITS NOT WORKING, like at ALL... At least summon the bloody worm (forgot its name) or try something else (no idea what lol).Quote:
Again not downplaying Kabuto, he is not bad in the area but he is not good. I am just using what he stated and the obvious that he was holding back. Stating you are not that good in an area does not mean you are bad, just that you are not THAT good. Kabuto actualy showed there to be tactical the way he worked Tsunade to the point she could not fight and disabled her. Only mistake he did is to underestimate her got hit when he belived Tsunade was down.
PS. Obviously he has better feats in part 2 :P(the links you posted).
Going by your mind alone, not the manga. Do you even know WHY he got hit? Because he wanted her alive, did not use letal force AND STOPED after he hit her:Quote:
He stoped fighting. Also she stoped as she needed to heal up, she herself could barely stand man:
Not only that she COULD NOT use her super stg to 1 shoot him as Kabuto removed her ability to do that:
SHE WAS LEFT WITH NORMAL PUNCHES. She was FORCED to stop and heal. You have to understand that he LET HER LIVE;
She first needs to hit him... And aparently she can't do that.... She tryied to the point she was almost out of chakra.Quote: