^ Let's not start insulting people, you can disagree while being polite.
I really don't want to start deleting comments
-by Kyuubi ( once a part of that very being )
And both times it was Juubi in its incomplete form.
However, logic does not apply here. Juubi is the result of a scientific synthesis, and even if you put little pieces together to make a synthesis, the resulting product can be stronger than the combine strength of the pieces. The atomic bomb is an example, and the hydrogen bomb as well. Thus, what count here is the properties and amount of the Juubi's chakra.
Now, you understand that through natural energy can strengthen something, on its own, it is not harmful. You need to use it to create something else that is harmful. In that sense, Juubi used the tailed beast bomb techniques to create a beam with his vast amount of chakra. Until now, Juubi has been strong in terms of the amount of energy he has, not in terms of the strength of the enrgy (caustic, or something else). We have no idea of special effect of his chakra. Kyuubi even commented to say that Naruto couldn't sense because it was the same as their surrounding.
Now, support my argument with what Kishi gave us, and from prior intel. People like Nagato, Kushina, and Naruto can take on a tailed beast such as Kyuubi if you give them the proper Jutsu. The reason is that their chakra is strong and they have plenty of it if not the same amount as Kurama himself. Kushina's chakra was so strong that she could pin down Kyuubi with her chakra chain after giving birth to Naruto and having the Kyuubi extracted from her. The barrier she created, and the fact that she immobilize Kyuubi is the evidence that she is stronger than the beast. It is clear that if she were healthy, she would have solo the Kyuubi with no difficulty in closed range combat because her Jutsu work from her mind, and Kurama cannot even see her coming.
Now, unlike many people, I believe that Naruto being her son will have her power at some point in time, and that Naruto already have her chakra priperties as well. Combining the power of a person who is stronger than the beast and the beast power should be greater than the Juubi in my opinion. Besides, Naruto is compare to Rikudo not because he has Kyuubi, but Kyuubi saw his own power. If Rikudo was stronger than Juubi, then Naruto alone can be stronger than an incomplete Juubi. Naruto's only problem is that he is not aware of his own power because of Kurama.
===== some analogy ===
Rasengan was powerful, but Rasengan + wind element was devastating.
Similarly, Kyuubi chakra is powerful, but Kyuubi chakra +Naruto's genetic will be more devastating. This so obvious that I don't understand the reason people are complainin. This is the reason being Jinchuriki of Juubi has become an issue for Madara and Obito.
Concerning relative comparison of Juubi and Kyuubi, the Juubi vs Kyuubi+Naruto, read above.
Anyone who thinks Kyuubi and Naruto could beat the Juubi is deluded. Considering how incomplete Juubi, both apparently in stage and not having 100% chakra it used to, you can't think the Kyuubi and Naruto would stand any chance. Even Kyuubi and Hachibi mode got owned or nearly owned by the first stage Juubi. Juubi has also caused more damage, being able to shoot bijuudama over very long range with huge explosion. The only reason why the Alliance is still alive is because Madara doesn't want Tobi to get caught up in the bijuudama blast or aftereffects.
Juubi at full power would utterly stomp all seven jinchuuriki with full mastery over their bijuu, all kage, and every single army combined. Only Rikudou Sennin has any chance of winning. Anyway, it's what I think.
But for sealing, you don't need to stop them. You don't need to be stronger, just strong enough to survive until you finish the seal and to be able to seal completely (e.g. how 3rd was unable to seal Oro with DG seal fully, because he was old and too weak).
Now, I agree that you can stop someone if you are weaker than them using some sort of technique. For example, if you can trick them using mind control or genjutsu, you can stop them. Tobi made Kyuubi think he is binded and in a magma to control him. Ino is controlling Obito to access to stop Juubi. This are control using sneaky tricks.
You can also use some other process such as a tool that cancel the strength of the opponent. For example, the gedo Mazou chain can suppress the strength of a Biju. For example, if a human who is weaker than another human is able to blind them or cut some specific nerve of the stronger on, he might be able to stop them despite being weaker.
Thus, I understand you perfectly, but as far as strength contest goes, a weak person cannot stop a stronger person.
How is your assumption any less baseless? Naruto can't create chakra stronger than the Juubi's, considering its chakra is natural energy. Naruto will have the problem of turning into a toad if he absorbs too much chakra, there's no way that fact changes.
We don't know how Rikudou stopped the Juubi, and we saw that Tobi was having some difficulty controlling second stage Juubi. Even Madara told Tobi to use Mokuton to keep control of the Juubi, and that it'll get harder.
The Kyuubi being stronger than the four tailed beasts that unleashed its bijuudama together doesn't make it stronger than the Juubi, which has six bijuu and tremendous amount of natural energy. If Naruto could beat the Juubi, or either Uchiha, he'd have done it long ago.
Concerning turning into toad, it is the result of pumping too much nature energy with respect to your own energy. Notice that when Naruto start drawing the energy, he doesn't turn into toads as long as the amount of natural energy is less than is own energy. Thus if he want his sm to be strong, he need to balance the two quantity. However, with a lot of chakra made from Kyuubi's chakra, it appears that he can pump huge amount of natural energy without having overcharge beyond his own chakra level.
In my opinion, neither Madara, nor Obito is the same as Naruto. They might have experience and a nice CV, but Naruto is way stronger than them when it comes to the will and body feet. You might say that Madara has Hashimara body, but can you prove that Hashimara body is stronger than Naruto's. Why did Hashimara go through the pain of bringing Mito Uzumaki for Kyuubi?
This is completely wrong. If I got in a fight with someone who's twice as strong as I am and I fought him directly then I'd lose. But I can gouge his eyes out before he grabs me, and then beat him to death. That requires no weapons and no extra strength. This is not Dragonball Z. The strongest doesn't always win, because there are far too many ways to defeat someone in this manga that doesn't rely on pure strength.Originally Posted by so6pww
And Kushina wasn't stronger than Kurama. She used a jutsu specifically designed to subdue bijuu. That's why it worked against him. Sealing jutsu don't seal things away/bind them by being superior in power. They work based on taking advantage of other weaknesses. Example? Shiki Fujin seals the victim's soul away. It has nothing to do with their body, thus, their physical strength is pointless. The Totsuka no Tsurugi ignores physical strength aswell thanks to being in an ethereal form.
Oh and you kept saying how naruto was only measuring the amount of the jyuubis chakra not the strength when it says in the scan that they were measuring his strength... Idk if you are ignoring evidence or what but I will post them again and break it down for ya
"Sensing our friend over there isn't even possible." - Sasuke won't be able to sense it
"... It's lifeforce is of the planet itself." - its power is planetary, it's power is no where close to just the bijuu he fought before, this is a completely different level
"It's strength is of the charts it's not even tangible, that's how powerful it is. " - that there proves that they were measuring its strength not
And no 616 does not prove anything, there's nothing in the chapter that had said naruto and kuramas chakra is more powerful than the jyuubis
Not sure if the new Naruto chakra is stronger than the Jyuubi's. However it is fair to say it has been enhanced by Naruto. I am of the opinion that it is not Naruto mixing it with his chakra but it has to do with Naruto's body being used as a "converter" or Naruto using his body as a "converter for the Kyuubi's chakra.
Honestly we dont know for sure the state of narutos chakra as of right now, but chapter 616 doesnt prove that claim. Maybe future chapters they will mention narutos chakra being more powerful, who knows honestly. We do know that he was given something by the other tailed beasts and all, but as of now its not a fact. Chaper 616 showed these things...
1. Narutos power has grown, evidence from Sasuke and Oro feeling his chakra at that great of a distance (Jyuubis chakra cant be sensed keep that in mind)
2. Naruto can now better control Kuramas chakra, it was complimeted by Hinata
3. Also he has learned how to "power up" characters by passing out his and Kuramas chakra
There is nothing in the chapter saying he is more powerful than the jyuubi now
Again: Sensing is a ninja ability, but every human can feel Naruto's new chakra in the air. It is so powerful that the air is also affected in Konoha. This effect never happen with Juubi whose presence does not change the surrounding atmosphere. Only sage tech can sense Juubi's chakra while everyone can feel the chakra Naruto created. Anyway, I am not expecting someone among you opponents to understand me anymore because you don't even see the difference between sensing by sensory ninja and feeling by human sense. Even Hinata said it, Orochimaru, Suigetsu, all the ninja, etc.
res·o·nate [rez-uh-neyt] Show IPA verb, res·o·nat·ed, res·o·nat·ing.
verb (used without object)
Besides, I am not saying that Naruto's power is greater than Juubi's. Rather, I am saying Naruto's new chakra is stronger than Kyuubi's in the sense that it effect in the whole environment is more pronounce than Juubi's to the point that without being a sensory ninja, any human can feel in far away. In order to compare the power of each side, you need to wait for the different fashion of using the chakra, the quantity of the chakra, and what can be done with the chakra.Quote:
The reason you are complaining is that you understand my statement as Naruto is now more powerful than Juubi, which is a wrong interpretation. After all the example I gave, you still continue to repeat the same thing. Though I believe Naruto will be more powerful than Juubi at the end, I don't think he is already more powerful. Converting Kyuubi's chakra was the first step Naruto took towards becoming stronger than Juubi. The next step is in my opinion perfecting the Sage Mode and/or using the power of the other tailed beasts.
Note: Naruto sensed the Juubi's chakra. It was not question of the chakra being dreadful or evil. Rather, it was the chakra being immeasurable. The juubi's power was measured in terms of the amount of chakra he has that is infinite. As matter of fact, Juubi can be around someone and not cause any damage as long as he does not move or make a Jutsu. Try to understand my point before you start a rebuttal.
Last edited by so6pww; January 22, 2013 at 12:28 PM.
Wrong. You've been saying this the entire damn thread, and now you're trying to backpeddle.Originally Posted by so6pww
You typed that. You blatantly said that if Naruto fought the Juubi right now he would defeat it. And before you try to say "I said he could win, not that he was more powerful", remember in this last post you JUST SAID that you can't defeat someone unless you're stronger than them.Originally Posted by so6pww
Thus, even though it's horrible logic, you GENUINELY believe that Naruto has surpassed the Juubi.Originally Posted by so6pww