Here are some thought I have been having concerning the badassness of older angry Kyuubi.
I recall people complaining because Kyuubi has become smooth and seems less powerful than when he raged against orochimaru, or Nagato's path. Then, I went back to consider Dark Naruto. If you guys recall the story, Kyuubi told Naruto that he did not sense his old self when Naruto got rid of his dark side. Then, I start to think that the reason Kyuubi was so powerful back then was because of dark Naruto. Unlike the dreaming Naruto, Dark Naruto can use Naruto's power in the same way Sasuke can use his power. Thus, when Kyuubi get a hold on that darkness on Naruto, Kyuubi become even more powerful than usual. I might sound unclear, but chapter 616 gave me some kind of confirmation.
In chapter 616, there is something new that I am surprised people are either overlooking or just don't want to discuss because it is related to Naruto. In my opinion, Kyuubi only gathered chakra, but his chakra has not changed. However, in 616, it appears that Kyuubi's chakra has become more powerful to the point that Sasuke and his friends who are not sensory ninja can feel the resonance at even farther places than before. Why?
Well, the answer is given in 616. The first answer is given by Kyuubi himself below.
Here, Kyuubi stated that Naruto is converting his chakra. This mean that the chakra Naruto is distributing is not Kurama's raw chakra, but a brand knew chakra that Naruto himself synthesize from his own chakra and Kurama's chakra. When I read it, my first impression was that this chakra synthesis is the same has the way Naruto make SM chakra, but as Naruto himself said, he is understanding how Kurama chakra work. The fact that the new chakra is Naruto's chakra altered by converting Kurama's chakra was stated by the cloud Ninja.
According to that cloud Ninja, who is a sensory ninja, the chakra is not Kurama's chakra. Rather, he continue to say it is Naruto's chakra. Remember that this guy is the same who commented on Sasuke's MS power. This fact also is enforce by the resonance going up to Sasuke and co.
From this observation, I think the badassery of the rampaging old Kyuubi was due to the fact that dark Naruto was the one leading the dance against Orochimaru or Nagato. Thus, in some circumstances, I think if Naruto were to unleash the power without holding back, no one except Juubi would be able to stand a chance against him.
Another observation I want to make is that from the new chakra synthesis process, it appears clearly that Naruto can now mix SM and KM. So in my opinion, a new chakra made of natural energy, Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto's physical and spiritual energy will be introduced. This will be the mode with crossed eyes.
Finally, my I want to emphasize that my intent in this thread is to show that the true badassness of Naruto in KM started in 616. In this chapter, rather than using the usual raw chakra from Kyuubi, Naruto has mixed this chakra with his own chakra, and that is why Orochimaru gave the look below to Sasuke:
I can try to make Orochimaru's sentence complete. "This chakra belong to Naruto. ... it seems to be annoying Sasuke than anything.". This statement also is the same as the cloud ninja's. Naruto's new mode is another level, and I think this is possible because Naruto himself has a heavy special load of chakra.
As a special notice, I would like to say that this chakra is stronger than current Juubi's chakra. This is proven by Hinata projecting Juubi's tail with an air palm move.
This thread is just an observation, and any comment is welcomed.
Last edited by so6pww; January 16, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
Originally Posted by so6pww
Just a point I wanted to make. You claim that Naruto's current chakra is more powerful than the Juubi's, because Hinata used an attack powered by Naruto's chakra and was strong enough to defend against a chakra hand, correct? In that case...
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/614/3 ...Neji and Hiashi's combined force is superior to Naruto's. My point is that it is literally impossible to guage the chakra amount of one's character from such a trivial act. For one:
Niether Neji or Hiashi used their full amount of chakra.
Niether did Hinata
Niether did the Juubi (especially considering it's still waiting to go through another 1 or two transformations
Madara and Obito both are still indifferent at his show of chakra
---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 AM ----------
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/614/12 Forgot he did it by himself here too.
Im not sure if Naruto+Kuramas chakra is more powerful than the Juubis yet but I think he made the claim based on the fact that when Hinata pushed back the hand it had a such a recoil affect that it pushed the hand into the mountain in the background, something that neji nor hiashi did
The power in her Kushou is also complimented by both Hiashi and Madara so it does rank that feat farely high
If you notice on the second scan I posted, the Juubi chakra hand is scraping along the ground, swatting away fodder ninja. Then Hiashi uses his Kuusho which knocks the hand way up into the sky. It's not the same as what Hinata did, but it's fairly close, didn't require Kurama's chakra, and created a huge explosion.
Another thing that becomes obvious when it comes to comparing Kurama and Naruto's altered chakra to the Juubi is that the Juubi's power was immeasurable. Sasuke felt Naruto's chakra and was annoyed. When Naruto felt the Juubi's power, it felt like there was nothing else in existance BUT his chakra. Like there was no beginning or end to it. I feel that's a greater show of power than Sasuke's minor annoyance. But that's just me.
how kurama and naruto chakra is going to be stronger than the juubi, the juubi contained the power of 7 bijuus and the gold and silver brothers of Kumogakure's( kinkaku and ginkaku) and a little of chakra of the hachibi even this pages say everything..
Last edited by EMS; January 18, 2013 at 10:53 AM.
To avoid unecessary discussion, notice that Sasuke and his friend couldn't feel Juubi's chakra though they were closer. Now, they can feel Naruto's chakra and you certainly saw Suigetsu's reaction, and Jugo's face. Moreover, consider Kushina vs full Kyuubi. I believe that Kyuubi has more chakra than Kushina, but Kushina can suppress Kyuubi with her chakra because her chakra is stronger than Kyuubi's.
Last edited by so6pww; January 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM.
Hiashi managed to pushed the hand in the air, but he used two hands to do his kuushou, and the hand recovered and shot off some splinters right after
Hinata used one hand and not just pushed it, but she sent the hand crashing against a mountain
I dont think the feats are close, but i guess its a matter of opinion i guess
Except I literally showed you that that's a fallacy. Attacks were effective on the Juubi, proven by the very links I provided. They weren't as destructive as the one's after they were powered up by Naruto, that's for sure. But this in no way shows that Naruto and Kurama's altered chakra is stronger than the Juubi's. It's also important to remember that the Juubi deflected a Bijuudama with it's actual finger, not one of it's ethereal chakra hands.Originally Posted by so6pww
Ofcourse. That doesn't mean that Naruto's chakra grants him a strength superior to the Juubi though. I repeat: the Juubi's chakra arms were already being defended against by Kuusho attacks from unenhanced ninja. It's common sense that any greater amplification of their own chakra would allow the Kuusho to perform stronger attacks. If Hinata had learned Sage Mode and performed the same attack, the same thing would happen. If she had a Curse Seal activated, the same thing would happen, but to a lesser degree.Quote:
Just, don't pass off "potency" as "strength". Potency simply means the chakra is dense and has a greater effect on those using it. In the Narutoverse, quantity can overwhelm quality.Quote:
Every Version 2 transformation used by a Jinchuuriki gains access to black skin because the chakra is so dense that it burns their flesh, while continuously recharging it. Even though Naruto's Version 2 was far more powerful than the others, it's directly based on how much chakra he had to work with. It was directly proportionate to the chakra in his posession.Quote:
"Juubi has plenty chakra but it doesn't hurt anyone."Quote:
Someone tell that to Neji. And Shikaku. And Ao. And Inoichi. And Bee. And a couple dozen fodder ninja that just died.
People can't feel the Juubi's chakra because it's based on natural energy, not because it lacks potency. It's a never-ending pool of immeasurable energy, but it's energy that no one on the battlefield can feel other than Naruto because he's the only Sage.
Though I'll point out you completely ignored what Kurama said in that page. He didn't say chakra, he said STRENGTH. That the Juubi's STRENGTH was on such a large scale that it was intangible. You're the one mincing his words to change it to "chakra", lest your argument be nullified right out of the gate.
Let's not get into semantics. I never said the Juubi's chakra is stronger than Naruto's, I said that the Juubi is superior thanks to his immeasurable amount of chakra. In this fight quantity>>>>quality. Think about it:Quote:
If Naruto in Bijuu Mode put every bit of his altered chakra into a Bijuudama and fired it at Juubi, while the Juubi put every bit of it's natural energy into a Bijuudama and fired it at Naruto and Kurama, the Bijuudama would devour Naruto's, atomize him, blow up the entire alliance, blow up the ground they're standing on, blow up the mountains BEHIND them, and potentially continue barreling along the ground until it fizzles out in the ocean somewhere miles away. The reason is because no matter how powerful Naruto's chakra is, it has a limit.
As of right now, even at only it's second transformation, the Juubi has a never-ending reservoire of energy.
I say this for the last time: Sasuke is not a Sage. Sasuke can not sense the Juubi's chakra even if he was standing next to it. This is the only reason he hasn't remarked about it's power. Naruto, with all his altered chakra, did little more than annoy Sasuke with it's feeling.Quote:
I'm gonna go ahead and bow out of this conversation right here because it's already going downhill. The upcoming chapters will reveal the reality of Naruto's current condition.
Last edited by ninjabot; January 18, 2013 at 06:18 PM.
anyway , this is nonsense ...
in begening of part 2 , QB compare Sasuke chakra ( without EMS ) with Madara and said that their chakra is was stronger and sinster than them .... but it has nothing with their power ....
and even Qb state that his chakra and all of bijju together are not comparable to Jubbi , so it has nothing .......
On topic, Juubi's chakra is both way larger and stronger than Naruto and Kyuubi's, by the mere fact that Juubi's Bijuudama, in its first stage, completely annihilated multiple Bijuudamas from Kyuubi and Hachibi, without being affected by them.
Regarding quantity, ninjabot explained it pretty well already
From this, I think you are misunderstanding strength of chakra and quantity of chakra. Next, Naruto did not feel Juubi's chakra because no one could fele it. Naruto went in SM to sense and measure the amount (not the strength). Naruto measure the strength of Juubi in terms of the amount of chakra he has, and you can see from that image that Juubi was only shown to be strong by the fact that his chakra is limitless.
In the case of Naruto's chakra in 616, it has nothing to do with quantity. Rather, it is the power in the chakra whether it is small quantity or large quantity. Sasuke and everyone felt Naruto's chakra because the power in the chakra alone could cause the air to vibrate. Here there is no sensing, but the feeling in the air. If Juubi's chakra was as powerful as Naruto's or more powerful, then Sasuke and others should have feel even worse that they felt in 616.
Given Naruto's new chakra being made from Kyuubi's chakra which is also plenty, you need to expect a new sage mode that will take advantage of this nearly limitless chakra. That say, the only think Naruto has to do is to let Kyuubi mold his chakra continually, then Naruto convert it and mix it with Natural energy. Given that the new chakra is plenty, Naruto can absorb natural energy with risk of becoming a toad. This will result in a power that will defeat the Juubi.
[ Again, Kishi gave a fact in the chapter 616, and you guys are trying to deny it. When that fact will come into play, you will continue to deny it. My point is that for Juubi to be beaten by Rikkudo, it mean Juubi is not the top power in the world. There is someone who is more powerful and can control him, and until now it has been Rikkudo, and Naruto seems to be that way as well.]
Last edited by so6pww; January 19, 2013 at 03:36 PM.
You state that naruto and kuramas chakra is stonger than the jyuubis but you don't have enough evidence to make that claim. Also naruto was measuring the strength of the jyuubi in SM
Yes I also believe naruto and kuramas chakra have gotten stronger too, but there is no indication that he is more powerful than the Jyuubi. Kurama stated that it's power isn't even tangible and it's magnitude is far greater than anything else. You also state that Sasuke and the others should be able to sense the jyuubis chakra when You can't even sense it without being in sage mode...
Next, without trying to show any form of superiority (some people think so), I would like you to go back and read the chapter where Naruto measure Juubi chakra. It started with everyone thinking Juubi has disappeared because they couldn't sense him. Then Kyuubi said that Juubi's chakra was the same as natural energy, and thus it has the same properties as their surrounding, which explained the fact that normal sensor couldn't distinguish it from the environment. At this point, it is important to note that Juubi's chakra is not harmful or dreadful in it raw form.
After this remark, Naruto went in Sage mode to sense the Jyuubi, and measure it Chakra. Then, it was question of Juubi's power rather than the strength of Jyuubi's chakra. Actually, if you check the image in the previous posts, you will notice that it is question of the vastness of the Juubi's chakra (quantity) rather than the strength or power of the chakra. In my previous post, I took the example of Acid and Water. You need a huge amount of water to drown someone, but a drop of acid can suffice to destroy their eyes and make them blind, then kill them with a knife. This is how I can see the strength of Naruto's chakra relatively to Juubi's chakra.
The only way i belive Naruto and Kurama have stronger chakra then that of the Juubi is when Naruto adds senjutsu chakra to the mix... Imean Juubi is formed by the 1 trough 7 tails + something from 8 and 9 and then adds nature energy... I don't know where the chakra from the biju whent as people can't sense it but it has to be somewhere... That chakra existed before just as well as Rikudo Senin had SOMETHING to split into smaller forms... Yeah Juubi has biju like chakra + NE... There is no way Naruto has more powerful chakra then that of the Juubi...
Aside from all the points ninjabot has already made, lets just use common sense here.
The Kyuubi is a part of the whole that the Juubi is. How can only a portion of the sum of something be stronger than it? The answer is it can't.
Also understand that just because the Great Sage sealed the Juubi does not make him stronger than it. The whole idea of sealing things in battle in the Narutoverse such as ninja and Biju is that you seal it because you can't destroy it necessarily. The Juubi was the most powerful being in existence, the Sage had to break it into pieces because he couldn't defeat it after he sealed it. The Biju themselves are immortal beings made up entirely of chakra. You can't kill them, even if by chance you are stronger than them.
And claiming that the Juubi is not the top power in the world goes to show that you are missing facts here. If the Kyuubi was more powerful why go though all the trouble of getting all the other Biju and starting a war? It's literally hurling bombs hundreds of miles away and destroying cities. Nearly every ninja in existence has assembled to try and fight the damn thing and they haven't so much as scratched it yet. And guess what, it's not done transforming, so it's only going to get stronger.
Last edited by Delbi; January 21, 2013 at 11:12 AM.