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If we take away Sage Mode and the Kyuubi, Naruto still has S-Rank techniques in Raseshuriken and Taju Kage Bushin. He still has Rasengan, he can still summon boss level summons and two Sages to help him.
Despite what you think, he does have great speed. How else did he snatch Sakura out of Sasuke's hands and fight hand to hand with Deva path? And believe it or not he is one of the better taijutsu users in the manga, remember, much of his fighting style is based on hand to hand combat.
He also has a massive chakra supply. He is good with weapons, decently strong. And despite what you may think, he does have more than the bait and switch. He's good with mis-direction, at creating diversions, and out thinking his opponents.
Now, is he still an idiot? Of course he is. his lack of basic intelligence would likely get him killed rather easily in a big fight. But that doesn't take away from the fact that his base strength is similar to a Jounin of Asuma's caliber IMO.
how are they not different they each do different things, and sasuje has dragon fire jutsu and shidori nagashi as defensive moves and the phoenix fire which is like homing missles. sasuke has different variants its more than a straight forward in your face, they can be applied to mutiple settings and its how theyre used which makes them differentQuote:
yeah i know but what im saying is the fact that regular nin have touched him and have hurt him means something, they may not have had the same chances as konan but danzos guards figured out obito to the point that they figured they need to attack him when he tries to attack or touch you. now they know obitos abilities and have fox chakra so theyre at an advantage just knowing how it works and having kakashi thereQuote:
Quote:he can use kamui on other nin and they can attack him from the other side so he has no where to run to, then on himself to get them out once the battle is over.Quote:
---------- Post added at 11:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------
i think he was coming out of sage moed when he caught her cause he was rushing over there in it so its not a stretch to say he did some super dive and just came out of it.Quote:
thats what ive been saying his supposed idiocy will get him killed but he came up with the shaow shuriken against zabuza so him constanly using the bait and switch is like saying he hasnt matured strategy wise. hes shown hes smarter than that so why doesnt he try to explore those smarts? and in base strength they may be the same but in overall skill asuma would still probably take naruto in a fight just cause naruto doesnt utilize his full capabilities properlyQuote:
Out of a traumatic experience, you awaken MS. By taking your sibling's MS, you gain the EMS. It's without a doubt the easiest power to get. The reason it's rare is because MS is very rare and for two siblings to both have MS is something near-impossible.
---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------
Last edited by Hakuteiken; January 24, 2013 at 12:01 PM.
My only gripe with anything is this: Naruto isn't a genius, and was never labeled a genius. Is he talented? Without a doubt. But his talent doesn't explain many of his hood leap and bounds in terms of learning and mastering abilities, or the fact he created Rasengan varients from nothing. Sage Mode and his ability to use the Kyuubi's chakra seemed rushed for someone who needed years of training (with Kage Bushin) to create FRS. Not to mention with Sage Mode, his master couldn't master it in what must have been 20 years, and yet he mastered it in what seemed like a week. And at that point, Jiraiya was more skilled than Naruto in every way possible.
Sasuke's big gains with MS can at least be chalked up to him being a genius and having a natural affinity with ninjutsu. With Naruto's there is less of an explanation.
---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------
thats what i mean sage mode already made you a beast so why rush kyuubi mode and jiraya trained at sage mode since he was like 14 and couldnt master it so like naruto did kinda get it easy imhoQuote:
and for the abilities yes both are hax but at least sasuke put his life on the line each and everytime so whos to say he doesnt deserve them
---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------
oh and by base strength compared to asuma i meant in terms of power not overall skills. his physical strength maybe everything else not a chance
---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------
oh and in terms of speed sasuke and bee and pretty much matched
its bees fighting style that sasuke cant register who uses 8 swords? XP
Naruto put his life on the line for both Sage Mode and RK Mode, just not in the same way as Sasuke did for his abilities.
In case you forgot, Naruto ran the risk of turning into a Stone Frog while training to be Sage. At one point he even jumped into the giant pool of oil much to Pa's horror which could have easily turned him into stone and killed him.
Training for RK mode required him to do several things that could have killed him/made him lose himself. Firstly, confronting the Kyuubi and unlocking the seal could have meant death for him and everyone around him.
(Now, if you want to argue that it was cheap that his mother and Bee helped him I won't disagree with you. But, on the flip side Sasuke wouldn't be alive if Itachi didn't take it easy on him, thus allowing him to unlock MS, and also allowing for his eyes to be taken for Sasuke to gain EMS. So unless you want to show real bias here, which you already kind of are, you have to play both sides.
Also, Jiraiya did not start training as a Sage at 14, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. In fact, he didn't even meet the Great Sage until sometime into his 20's if not early 30's.
In terms of speed Sasuke and Bee are not pretty much evenly matched. Sasuke was only able to dodge Bee when he was moving in a straight line thanks to Sasuke's Sharigan. However, once Bee changed his fighting style and started spinning Sasuke could no longer predict the attacks and dodge, hence why he got stabbed.
And comparing Naruto and Asuma in terms of overall skills is difficult, but they are certainly the same level of fighter all around in their base levels. Naruto has proven this with his great speed, ability to grab swords with his bare hands, and his overall taijutsu and weapon usage.
I am really impressed by the effort you guys go about putting into analyzing this manga. It makes for a great read
On the topic of Sasukes sharingan being cheap. Why? I understand it would be cheap handing down powers from others or taking them like Madara is doing from Hashirama but Sasukes Sharingan, hell even the MS is abilities he has within him, he was born with them. Why not remove Shikamarus ability to manipulate shadows, or Choujis energy conversion and so on and so forth. I don't see it as cheap at all.
There are lot of factors to acquiring EMS, it's not easy. Sasuke was nearly blind, and he still had to fight his brother and win, even though Itachi was going easy. Madara was blind, and he could have been nearly blind or had trouble on the battlefield as well due to poor eyesight. In both cases though, Sasuke and Madara didn't have or didn't seem to have problems taking their brother's eyes.
What imo makes the Sharingan cheap is that it is way too much overpowered, it can do anything, and worse, the biggest power ups don't come from trainning but from emotional trauma. Even the normal Sharingan is only awaken in a traumatic/dramatic situation. It happened with Sasuke, and also with Obito, who trained his ass of and couldn't awake it, only when he was in a deadly situation did he get it.
Following the same logic, right now Kyuubi is also becoming cheap, because it's turning into a do-it-all power.
Kunai is external power, and so are summonings. I have no idea why people keep insisting Kyuubi is Naruto's own power, and then proceed to accuse Sasuke of gettin free powerups or saying that his power isn't his own.
The Kyuubi s far cheaper than Sharingan. The powerup kicks in whenever Naruto feels threatened or mad. The Kyuubi allowed Naruto to beat Haku and Neji. Even when Sasuke woke his Sharingan, he still lost to Haku and wouldn't have beaten Neji if Neji shut off his chakra path. Anyone who says the Sharingan is cheap or more haxxed than the Kyuubi isn't clearly reading the manga with open eyes.
Kyuubi, like a summoning or sword are considered weapons, like the Sharingan is, remember Zetsu's comment on Sasuke's use of the Sharingan/CS against Itachi's Tsukuyomi?
And right now both of them became cheap. The sharingan was badass enough with the abilities shown during part one from Kakashi, Sasuke and mainly Itachi. Kyuubi was also alright, it was always a monster sure, but it was basically a huge boots of chakra, healing power and later the Biju Dama. Now besides all that, it can sense even emotions, transfer chakra enter the subconscious of sealed Bijuu etc etc
Kyuubi does not need to be mastered. Up until Jiraiya told him, Naruto didn't even know Kyuubi was helping him out. And even durin the training, all Naruto had to do was tell the Kyuubi to give him chakra, and it did since it didn't want to die as well. Naruto does not need to work for his power at all. I won't deny that he did work to master the Kyuubi chakra that he stole though, and that he had to work for it. But when the Kyuubi was lending chakra, all Naruto needed to do was continue fighting.
MS didn't save Sasuke from Danzou's seal. From what I read, his body/chakra got stronger from hatred and broke Danzou's seal, Susano'o had nothing to do with it. Even when Sasuke attained complete Susano'o, he couldn't keep it up for very long due to blindness.
Sharingan is different from Kyuubi. Sharingan still requires user's own skills and abilities otherwise it's just as useless. Kyuubi doesn't require that, it boosts user's own skills and abilities.
But yeah, both of them became cheap.
Again a Bijuu's power as to be mastered as much as the Sharingan or MS. Jiraya spent a whole month trainning Naruto so that he could access Kyuubi's chakra a little. Then he spent most of the time-skip trying to make Naruto control the Kyuubi. Bee had to master the Hachibi. And actually it's so difficult to control a Bijuu that only a very few number of shinobi can do it.
The MS has the risk of blindness? Sure. If a Bijuu takes over it's Jinchuuriki they're pretty much done for, because in the process of resealing them the jin normally dies. What happened to Bee's uncle?
Where does the Kyuubi need to be mastered? After knowing about the Kyuubi all Naruto had to do was demand chakra from it. He didn't need to master Kyuubi at all, just like how Sasuke wouldn't necessarily need to master Sharingan. And despite all that, Sharingan doesn't save you though. Every time Naruto got Kyuubi's chakra, he was saved, every single time. Every time Sasuke got new powerup or after getting Sharingan, he was still in trouble and would have either lost or lost.
No it didn't, considering Sasuke got three tomoes while they were talking. Plus, Sasuke didn't get any kind of injury that Sharingan healed. Naruto got a hole popped in him, and all he needed was Kyuubi's chakra for it to heal. That's way worse, considering Sharingan doesn't heal any injury.
Sharingan didn't help Obito get out of the rockslide unscathed. If he had Kyuubi's chakra, he could have used it as a shield, and it would have blasted the rocks out of the way. And let's not forget that they still had to awaken it. Bijuu do not need to be awakened, they offer protection one way or another. Just ask Gaara - even his blind spot was protected so well that it required intense speed to get past it. How can you compare that kind of power to Sharingan?
How did Sasuke pull a complete Susano'o out of his ass? Why say he did it, but not Itachi or Madara? Even with complete Susano'o, Sasuke still had problems.
No, a bijuu's power does not need to be mastered. Again, I refer you to part I, where Naruto was able to use Kyuubi's chakra unconsciously and when Gaara was protected automatically by sand even without knowing it. However, mastering its power does take the jinchuuriki's power further, as seen during the war, compared to Part I.
But has the Kyuubi ever taken over Naruto completely? CLosest it's come to doin that, Minato saved Naruto. Before that, he had Jiraiya, Yamato, and Kakashi help him. Even Gaara was only at risk when he slept. And so far, we've only seen that happen to Bee's predecessors.