So I just noticed that some members here overrate Fortuna just because he is a Master. But looking at feats, isn't Sho Kano, like...leagues ahead of him ?
Fortuna was defeated by six disciples. Four of those were already beaten up beyond imagination.
Now, looking at Sho, he in a split second took out three of those six (and the those three were in a perfect shape, compared to how they were against Fortuna).
Now, excluding Hermit, I don't see if the rest of those six were there would change the outcome in any way. And about Hermit, then he himself stated that he isn't strong enough to take on Sho. Which seeing as he believed he can take on Fortuna, says a lot.
That and the fact that Kenichi compared Sho's Ki to that of his Masters, supports my point.
So, what do you guys think of that ?
Tochumaru was with them. 'Nuff said.
^ Thank you two for your unarguable, full of evidence and absolutely logical statements. You have truly settled this discussion with your brilliance.
Tochoumaru would give the fodder treatment to the elder, junazad and mikumo together
Anyways, I would argue that kano sho was just about as far away from master class that it is not even funny. And its not that he was weak, its just that the gap for a disciple to get to master class is so wide that the difference between a disciple class fighter and kano sho would be minuscule.
Anyways, there are a few things to consider here. First of all, kano sho fought 3 guys out of whom he did not care if he killed them or not. Fortuna wanted the kids very much alive and was fighting a greater number of them. I mean, kano sho took out freya, thor and takeda one at a time while fortuna had to take out those 3 plus seigfried (who at the time was obviously much stronger than those 3 combined), kisara and tanimoto (who at the time would have already been comparable to just about any yomi). Then perhaps the single most important difference would be nijima. Nijima was the one who saw and guided the path to victory through his instructions. Without nijima making the groups strategy I don't think numbers would have made a huge difference against a master class.
Fortuna also went for the kill when he fought them. As he told them whether to become his children or die. So there is no excuse for him about holding back. In fact, it was Sho who held back so that he doesn't kill them.
Seigfreid is stronger than Freya, Thor and Takeda ? Come one, get serious. And even if he was (which is not true) he was also insanely beaten up. Kisara was far below any Yomi, she never was at that level. Even Nijima knew it was completely hopeless to have her fighting Sho. As I said, there is no way Kisara or Seig would have made any difference at all. We are talking about a guy who one shot three of Kisara's and Seig's equals in a split second. Hermit was the only one who would have made a bit of a match, but even he acknowledges Sho as a superior martial artist.
And once again you forget that four of those six were extremely injured, two of them were completely out cold and shouldn't be out of the hospital, two others were in no better condition. All four of them couldn't keep fighting in the tournament. Having been defeated by those worn out guys shows how pathetic he is.
Everything in the manga shows Sho to be stronger than him, people are just being delusional about the Master class being stronger than Disciple. One more thing, Gonzui Kumatori was also a master class, but Miu was 100% confident she could crush him and all his disciples. Doesn't that crush your argument about " the gap for a disciple to get to master class is so wide" ?
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 29, 2013 at 11:45 AM.
Ma sougetsu is a bit of an ass for the most part, telling his disciple to fight a master class does not imply he actually thought he could win. He likely just wanted his disciple to get the experience however we don't actually know if he had plans beyond that or even if he calculated whether natsu would fight fortuna with his friends (it wouldn't have been that hard to deduce he wouldn't fight fortuna alone if fortuna was the last master there and he was after the other kids and obviously it would have been harmless to fight the ryozampaku guys).
Why wouldn't seigfried be that strong? He easily took care of his enemy during the DoD and made it clear he could have taken out all of the other members of the team (except that he was exhausted for not having slept for 3 days or so). To boot takeda was not all that strong back then, he was barely into his special training. Even when we saw him fight it was clear he was not at the yomi level. Thor is by far the least exceptional of the shinpaku guys (except for ukita) and freya has never shown anything particularly exceptional in battle or that suggests she can fight a yomi (even though she has an actual super master class master). Freya can't handle a cripple with her tehcniques and thor didn't last 2 seconds against lugh.
Nothing in the manga points towards fortuna being inferior to a disciple. Fortuna might have been at the lowest master class level however everyone there pointed out fortuna was the real deal in regards to being a full fledged master and his ki even was compared to other actual masters. It is only by organizing and combining the strength of all their attacks. Fortuna also did say he would have them or kill them however nothing he ever did actually suggested he tried to kill them which is evidenced by the fact that he landed plenty of attacks which didn't kill them. Each and every disciple there was fodder at best to fortuna at the individual level, it is only because working as a team took them to a greater height that they managed to win. That said, sho would have gotten his ass handed to him in a similar scenario (and odds are the shinpaku guys did not quite team up with the same organization as they did against fortuna when fighting sho).
Sho Kano < Miu maybe Kenichi too < Penguin < Tanaka < Fortuna.
Now if Sho is weaker than all of those expert class fighters I listed above, then how in the world could he be stronger let alone strong as Fortuna (master class fighter)? It's just isn't likely or possible at all.
If you disagree then by all means prove to me that Kano is stronger than Miu, Penguin, and Tanaka. After that maybe I'll entertain the idea that Sho is master class
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; January 29, 2013 at 11:42 PM.
Well, the manga presented sho as equal to miu and well stronger than kenichi. Kenichi just happened to pull an akira on him.
Not technically the circumstances of Kencihi's fight were different from Akira's.
Well, Kenichi might have not been stronger than Kano Sho at the moment they fought, but now Kenichi seems considerably stronger than he was at that time. It's the main point of the manga - to show how everyone progresses over time. So now I would say that even current Takeda would put a good fight against Kano of DoD and Takeda is like leagues away from being a Master Class.
Why would he be ? Because he took care of the Capoeira team ? Is that supposed to be an impressive ? That team was full of weaklings so it's not that big of a deal. He was indeed stronger than them individually, but saying he is stronger than Takeda, Freya and Thor combined is ridicules. Are you not underestimating Odin ? Being cripple hardly made him weak and she also didn't have her staff, so basically she didn't have her martial art. Nevertheless, Odin as crippled man, managed to easily defeat two powerful disciples who gave even Kenichi a hard time. And how many seconds did Sieg last against Lugh ? 5 seconds ? And you keep forgetting he was injured and tired like everyone else. I don't see how having him and Kisara helping the other three would do anything to Sho.Quote:
Nothing also points that Sho is inferior to him. Especially after being said to possess the same body as a master class. I never said he wasn't a full fledged master, but is that supposed to put him above Sho ? Gonzui was also a full fledged master but he is clearly weaker than Miu, a disciple. His attacks couldn't kill them because they aren't strong enough to do so. Sho's attacks did three times as much damage and ten times as fast and he was holding back. Each and every disciple was a fodder to Sho as well. Sho was stated to have both the body and Ki of a master. And there is no question about his skills. Fortuna on the other hand didn't show the strength, speed, skill or even the Ki befitting a master class. Not even his presence was as intimidating as Sho's or other masters.Quote:
---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------
You're not even bothering to remember his name are you.
Anyways, Sho Kano is for starters, stronger than both Miu and Kenichi. Second, who said that Tanaka or Pengulu are weaker than Fortuna ? Are you not just assuming that ?
He's obviously stronger than Miu as he outmatched her. Of course he's weaker than Tanaka or Pengulu, but, prove to me that those two are inferior to Fortuna. Then I will consider your point. Just coming in and saying, this > that > this, is not enough to prove anything.Quote:
^Well I was talking about present day Kenichi is stronger Kano, but back during the tournament arc Kano would be obviously be a lot stronger than Kenichi. I don't believe Kano was stronger than Miu during that arc though that's strongly debatable. He never outmatched her. Yes, he defended himself against all her attacks, but there isn't much else that can be said about that fight. The only thing can be concluded from their brief fight is that Kano had the speed to keep up her with movements during that particular time period. That's all. That does not mean he was the superior fighter.
Actually coming in and saying > this > that does prove a lot. Somethings go without saying ya know. Tanaka and Penguin have been both classified as EXPERT CLASS fighters meaning they're obviously weaker than Fortuna who is a MASTER CLASS fighter. I shouldn't have to explain myself as these are MANGA FACTS that should be known by everyone who reads HSDK at the present moment. I'm not assuming anything my friend. These are truthful unarguable facts. Expert class fighters are not stronger than master class fighters. Period. So...................you seriously need to rethink your idea about Sho being stronger than Fortuna or read the manga again.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 02, 2013 at 11:39 AM.
Don't know where that was said, but it can't be a random statement. Also, even long after his death Sho Kano was still acknowledged and said to be far above Kenichi.Quote:
Do I have to teach you what facts are ? Can you bring me one page saying Tanaka is weaker than Fortuna ? Can you bring one page saying that a master will always be stronger than an expert or a disciple ? Can you bring me one page saying that Fortuna is stronger than Sho ?Quote:
You think that by going around spouting nonsense and calling it facts, you will make me feel that I'm wrong ? There is no single manga fact indicating who is stronger, so refrain from talking like that. Especially seeing as Tanaka was also referred as a "Master among the group". Expert class can hardly be called an official class. As it was never stated to be a martial art rank or class like master class and disciple class. It was only referred twice both times being called a period or a state. All the other times it's either grouped with a master or disciple class. Even Pengulu was never stated officially to be an Expert, he was grouped with the disciples while Tanaka was grouped with the masters. Please, don't take random rumors and make them manga facts. You clearly are the one who needs to check the manga again, because you have zero idea about what you're saying.
Last edited by KingOfNight; February 03, 2013 at 11:44 AM.
Yeah, so what he got acknowledged?
That's a misinterpretation on your part. Koukin never insinuated that Sho was stronger than the current Kenichi in front of him. He simply stated to Kenichi that even if your opponent was stronger, faster, etc than you (obviously at that particular time period) you made up for all your shortcomings by the strength of your heart. That's all he meant.
No, I know the real facts.
Of course not. The pages you referring to don't exist. However, if you simply use a little logic in your reasoning then you'll see that I'm correct in what I'm about to allege. Prepare yourself.
Regardless of how many times the expert class has been referred to throughout the manga, that still does not change the fact that it is indeed a class. It is a category between the disciple and master classes. Notice how the Elder states the NEXT waiting period. He's insinuating there are a few waiting periods before breaching the master class. The disciple class is the waiting period before entering the expert class, and the expert class is the waiting period before entering the master class. This nonsense about the expert class not being an official class is simply inaccurate and untrue. In the very same page he states Tanaka is a expert. A master AMONG THAT GROUP meaning he is still an expert, but a very high expert at that close to reaching master class. The Elder never said an official master class fighter nor did he insinuate that. Another misinterpretation on your part.
Now bear with me I don't want you to get lost or confused. If the expert class is the waiting period before becoming a master; Then how would it be possible for an expert class fighter to be stronger than a master class fighter? Think about that long and hard.
Continuing. Here it is stated by Fortuna himself that he is a master class fighter and seconds later confirmed by Niijima. Also, here's another confirmation that Fortuna is master class by Tanimoto. Now unless you plan to be ignorant there is no way in hell that you can argue that Fortuna is not master class. It's purely a ridiculous argument.
Now, here it is declared by Jenezad that Pengulu is a fighter just below master class and that he's stronger than Miu. I have no other choice, but to assume that Pengulu is indeed a expert class fighter based upon Jenezad's statements. Sho was beaten by Kenichi alone. Pengulu was able to manhandle both Kenichi and Miu (very much stronger fighters than they were in the tournament arc) at the same damn time. How in the world would Sho be stronger than Pengulu? Makes no sense.
I just showed you multiple links/proof that Tanaka and Pengulu are both expert class fighters. Expert class fighters who are both still in the waiting period to become a master something of which Fortuna has already done. There is no possible way Sho is stronger than Fortuna nor is he stronger than the expert class fighters I listed above. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever, and I feel sorry that it's seems like you've been misinterpreting the manga for a very long time. I don't speak any nonsense nor am I stating rumors. I KNOW what the hell I'm talking about. I have read the manga, and I just gave you irrefutable proof to back up my claims. You need to read the manga again or find a way to improve your reading comprehension skills because they are lacking at the present moment seeing as you didn't understand my previous post. That is all.
By the way, use the manga not the wiki as your source of information. Anyone can go on those sites and edit information or post whatever ideas they have in their heads. Not all the information on the wiki site is entirely true.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 03, 2013 at 05:41 PM.