He made it a point to recgonzie that they killed their own emotions. He neglects to add that they also ousted Madara and chose Hashirama as their leader.
He says "quite a few held Madara's sentiments". If that was the case, then all the rest of them did not. Not to mention, the few who did share those sentiments would have either been dead or wouldn't have lead the Coup that happened 60+ years later.
Hashirama is confirming that despair awakens power in their eyes and that is absolutely true. However, nothing suggested that Uchihas lost control and just hated everything and everybody. The majority of Uchihas willing to call a truce and coexist with the Senjus however, proves otherwise. They would never have even considered this idea, if they always fell into hatred as Tobirama suggested. The only one that did was Madara at that time, and the Uchihas forsook him. How can you use the exception to represent the majority, when the majority acted exactly opposite.
Last edited by chilibun; February 08, 2013 at 12:44 PM.
after this recent chapter i cant wait untill Naruto meets Tobriama and gets to convert him to Narutoism
Might I add that Kishimoto himself called the Hokages "the ones who knew everything"?
He would be quite a moron if he makes all of them spout bullshit. So unless proven otherwise I'll believe Tobirama and Hashirama's words
I have seen it happen countless times, Tobirama didn't base his judgment only on Madara.
And again, all he did was kept them watched, the political power thing was Obito's comment, and I don't think Uchihas would accept, for example, not being allowed to vote for 30+ years ( since that is basically the only political power we know in the Narutoverse, they wanted more, after the Police thing? Their fault ).
Same thing with all other clans seeing Uchihas not being allowed their same privileges and keeping quiet about it
Madara was the only one he knew that took things to an extreme. Every last Uchiha ousted him and stayed with Konoha. Not one, aside from him, became a rebel in Tobirama's life time. And yet he feared them o so much.
He didn't just watch them, he knowingly chased them to the outskirts of the village, thereby making it favorable for them to follow in Madara's footsteps, the thing he feared most.
And I don't see why they wouldn't want political power, Senju or Senju trained and taught ninja aside from Minato had always been the leaders of the village. It's ironic, that the Uchiha, the other founding members, were never given a chance to lead, is it not?
He had an entire chapter when all his dialogue was made of "Gwooooo" "Groooooo" "Gwaaaaaaa".
To be emotionally broken is one thing, to become insane is another. Expecially considering what we know, Uchihas periodically killing their best friends/brothers to try to gain MS, stealing Sharingans to continually use Izanagi etc.
Also reread the page you linked, and look at what Oro said:
unknowingly. He unknowingly fanned those flames.
Tobirama screwed up, but imo it never was to wipe out Uchihas or something like that, he gave them the privilege of having the Police force ( which wasn't something bad, considering the speech Itachi gave to Sasuke ) but kept watching them, expecting them to lose it.
Also ironic how someone taught by Senju like Hiruzen praising Itachi, saying he had a Hokage mentality at 7.Quote:
I'm 100% sure that, with the death of Yondaime, Hiruzen would've picked Itachi for the spot. Uchihas simply chose to rebel, and we still have to know where they were during the Kyuubi attack.
Let's wait for all the facts before jumping the gun
Of course, as SonofUchiha mentioned, this is probably more of a complete and total bias from Tobirama's part than anything else. If Uchihas really did run mental with their genetic tendencies all the time, then they would have been far far harder to handle especially in the face of the perceived persecution that Tobirama dealt to them.
The fact that it took decades of repression for them to totally snap seems to imply that they aren't completely driven by the instinct to hate after they've lost everything.
Cmon, every author does that. Characters speak for authors without the author having the need to put up narration boxes for exposition.Quote:
Last edited by StarkPoseidon; February 08, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
If he hated the Uchiha so much, why then didn't he use Madara as an excuse to kill them all? Or another scapegoat like Itachi was?
Hell why did he entrust his safety also to an Uchiha?
Its pretty difficult to find a narrator in a manga
He said why. He did it to spite his brother on a complete and total whim. He didn't do it because he loved Naruto, or cared about him, or because he was suddenly struck by some vein of compassion or clarity. Sauske merely decided he could be an extra-big prick towards his brother by ignoring Itachi's taunt that Sauske would have to kill his best friend in order to get eyes that would match his own.Quote:
Disagree. Say - for example - there is a person who is born a gifted athlete. He comes from a line of gifted athletes, and the genetic liklihood is that this kid will also end up having a propensity for strong athletic performance. With training and focus, it is virtually a guarantee that the child will become not just a 'good' athlete, but a great one.Quote:
But tragedy strikes! There is a mixup at the hospital and the kid grows up among a bunch of non-athletes. He is never given a chance to reach his potential because the family raising him has no idea this hidden potential exists. But then he goes to school. The coach sees that this kid has the same face, nose, and features as the line of gifted athletes, and suspects that this kid would be great if he got the chance. The coach also sees the kid just naturally has ability. So he trains him and everyone is amazed at what the kid can do.
Is nurture involved? To only a minor extent. The only reason the coach can really do anything with this hypothetical kid is because he STARTED OFF with greater gifts, abilities, and talent than other people have. The coach recognized it, and gave him the 'push' to get started - but everything else is the kid and his natural abilities that lets him excel where others would hit that plateau that makes the rest of us "normal" as opposed to "great" at something.
Likewise, Obito may have served as the catalyst to START Sauske down his loony-toon kook path for morons. But Sauske couldn't get far down that path unless he had the genetic nature to do so.
Last edited by Invader; February 08, 2013 at 01:38 PM.
Fact is, his basis for their problems were unfounded as he only used his experience with them in battle. He ignored out they ousted Madara and swore loyalty to his brother while killing their feelings.
He unknowingly caused a shit storm, but knowingly did everything that led to it. So I don't by his ignorance for a second.
As for the Uchiha rebelling. If Hiruzen wanted to he could have spared Itachi, Sasuke and any other loyal Uchiha and had ANBU kill all the rest. But he didn't he had Itachi kill everyone, take the blame, and only left Sasuke.
---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------
And Senju didn't monopolize the government? Two Senju's were Hokage, and since neither seemed to have any kin ready for the job, they made their student the next Hokage, who in turn made his student's student Hokage. All of them have ties to the Senju clan, none aside from Minato having taught an Uchiha, have ties to the Uchiha clan.