Sasuke and Neji I would understand, at least they were good for something and actually had the talent to feel "superior"
And it is that very talent that caused Neji to lose and Sasuke to leave the village.
Well, from my perspective Naruto seems really smart because he's succeeded with a training the doesn't seem to work. If it's a big ol' placebo. Naruto must be one brilliant guy.
If I'm right about this being a crap, it's actually Kakashi that this makes look like a bit of dumbass.
It's based on the notion of randomly getting a certain result in shorter period of time. But building up a skill is not a matter of probability it's a something where every failure grants knowledge and based on that knowledge you gain the ability to do something better and better, until you can do it well.
It's not like he's guessing the key to a combination lock. Though even that would bring obvious problems, namely how many of his clones would try the same numbers. Since all the clones are him, they would share the same tendencies would they not?
And in matter's of experimentation I'd agree with you. He could divide the labor and therefore decrease the amount of time it would take to do something. But if it's something skill based than I don't see how the labor could actually be divided in the way you suggest.
The conventional method of learning a skill based task is try something and refine what you do each time. And through repetitions of this refine what works best each time you do it. Naruto's clones supposedly speed this up by benefiting from each others experience but, due to the fact that they are separate entities until the jutsu is released, they can't actually do that; unless the process was for him to make 1000 clones, do the training once, then release the jutsu. And even then it wouldn't be exactly the same thing.
Lets say Naruto makes 3 clones to do 5 repetitions of wind element training before they are released. Returning the experience to Naruto.
The training was performed a total of 15 times, but since it was divided between 3 separate equally experienced clones. They would have all started and ended with the same amount of experience with the training(5 repetitions).
So the only gain would be that he would end up with the best result of all of his clones, correct?
He could arguably end up with the best possible results for him in that given time, because the clone that did the best would be the clone whose experience he would presumably use but even then. since all of the clones are copies of himself the experience is bound to be fairly similar.
Then on top of that there is concept of "noise" from the clones that did badly. It stands to reason that if some clones were doing particularly good other clones would be doing particularly bad. So he should theoretically be taking the bad with the good should he not?
Last edited by Jammin; February 04, 2013 at 04:10 PM.
For example one clone may put the left hand over the right, while another puts the right hand over the left, another rubs his hands together, and another leave 2 inches between both hands.. You could have 100 clones do 100 different pemutations and figure out which ones work, instead of having 1 person do all 100. There is inherent efficiency built into the clone technique that the original Naruto can't compete with. That's what allows Naruto to surpass Kakashi because the can do this technique while Kakashi can't.
Now naruto could be lucky and got it on his 1st attenpt unaided, but since this tecfhnique is A-ranked, and few can do it, the odds are that he would fail on his first attempt. So the primary driver is repetiition rather than skill to reserach the new technique.
They say research is 90% failure and 10% success and as a scientist I can attest to this comment.
@Jammin: Yes and no.
Look, I think i already showed in that example that probobly every Naruto would begin with combinations 1 and 2, maybe even then they'll all go with 3 but then it gets interesting. As they are seperated now, every Naruto might come up with a different idea how to solve the problem.
Taking this over to chakra control lets say this:
Naruto #1: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Puts more chakra into it
Naruto #2: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Tries to sharpen the chakra
Naruto #3: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Takes a different approach sharpening the chakra
So even if the clones probobly do produce similar results after beginning, their training will differ more and more time goes by as every clone for himself might find a way to do it just a little better.
In the end after this little example Training our Naruto probobly knows how hard he has to sharpen the chakra to cut the leaf, how much chakra he needs to put into it and what is probobly the best way of sharpening the chakra.
So i think on certain levels it can be splitted.
That should also explain why i think that your example, or lets see the deduction is not entirely right.
You suggest Naruto is doing research with his clones but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's was learning skills with them. Wind element manipulation, most skills such as that a teacher can tell you what to do, as Asuma did for Naruto. Learning how to do it consistently, quickly, and smoothly is something else entirely. That's where I don't see how Kagebunshin can be of nearly as much help as the manga claims.
For example, as a habit I spin a pen between four fingers of one hand (like in the bond movie Goldeneye). I could tell anybody how to do it but actually getting good at it is a matter simple practice. How much faster to you think a hundred shadow clones of yourself would allow you to master that?
This still leaves the question "How much would that benefit be?"
Would it equate multiplying the experience gained by the number of clones? I find that very hard to believe, and that is what the gain was implicitly stated to be.
Last edited by Jammin; February 04, 2013 at 07:04 PM.
if clones can progress ahead of the original; then it is pretty apparent that they can think differently than the original. it's better if you realize it.
Exactly my point, but it defienetly is effective, probobly more and more effective the more often you share the knowledge and therefore improve your training results. But even without doing this very frequently, the trainng should be considerably effective as this training is like a web, the more and more it gets bigger the more paths are offered.
He's trying different things with the clones though. Each clone can put in different power or mold chakra differently or make their chakra different. If the task is difficult and takes a long time, havin about 1000 clones can cut this time in half as they'd each be looking for ways to get their objective. If one clone finally cuts the leaf, then after he dispels, the original Naruto will learn that method as well, while 999 other clones STILL can't cut their leaf or don't know how.Quote:
The original Naruto can give the order to come up with different ways to cut the leaf, which the clones try. They would probably know to try all different ways. One Naruto can focus on putting forth more chakra, another can focus on molding chakra to the exact shape, another can combine both and see if that works.
Not that fast because there's no different way to spinning a pen, is there? Even if there is, there's no incorrect way for the spinner.Quote:
I think it would be of great benefit because Naruto can learn hundreds of different ways to do something. Although one ultimately works, he can gain better experience of what to do and what not to do, and try things different for different jutsu. The knowledge he gains would give him benefit here.Quote:
There's little chance to learn a new justu the first time you try it. But if you do a thousand "first tries", that chance increases a lot. That's why.
THAT doesn't make sense to people? And I'm guessing that releasing a powerful chemical inside an Uchiha's brain results in producing more powerful eyes makes MUCH MORE SENSE.
Not everything is supposed to make sense. . .
It's a manga for Christ sake. It's suppose to be cool and awesome.
I mean you have guys shooting fire out of their mouths and shit.
If you read the Road to Ninja special, it's got scenes of Naruto playing cards with his own Kage Bunshin doppelgangers and they all behave differently because they are dealt different hands. They even get into an argument.
The fact is that his clones are all attempting different methods to master the technique. Even if the permutations are only minor, the results will be different.