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read the lines, he said he was scared but anyone would be scared. it was his job as kage to take the mission and he wasnt gonna let hims team do it which is why he died saving them. if he was truly scared hiruzen wouldve died that day.Quote:
you are cause you making it seem like they didnt have a choice when they had a clear one. they were moved in case of further attack but they were given special privlege as the police force. do the senju have a special position in konoha? nope. but the uchicha got one without earning it. it was a measure of good faith, in oreder to restore their image. madara was their former leader and he just attacked the hokage, inc case of further attack whhy leave them in a place where they can get close to you? he moved them away but gave them a task THEY COULD EXCEL AT. by having the sharigan they would make excellent police.Quote:
they already had influence and didnt need to plan a coup. they shouldve had talks with the kage and shown their dedication to the village to shed the image of madara and show that they are truly nothing like him. that is the true peaceful and general solution. they had 50+ years to do so but were too ignorant and paranoid to try a new approach other than killing.
being scared of potential followers and another attack would mean he was scared of a coup lol im pretty sure thats the pure definitionQuote:
they were right to think that but still madara was their former leader and regardless if he defects or not hes gonna have potential followers. they shouldve realized that and had talks with the kage about their location and busted their ass as good police to show their loyalty. that wouldve rid them of any suspicions. they had no other option than that to clean the blemish madara left on their name but they planned a coup instead. and why wait 50+ years why not do it then?Quote:
they did nothing. they got blamed but still got a shiny position as the police as a sign of good faith. they couldve taken their position proved their worth and gone back into the village but again they are too arrogant and stupid to see the big picture outside their own clan. madara just put the entire village at risk and your just gonna let that negative image hang over you and your clan? lol. they couldve worked hard as the police that wouldve got the elders off their backs and the people of konoha loving them.
tobirama wasnt a dick head he was a just kage doing whatever he thought necessary. they were a potential threat to the village so why leave them in a position where they can attack. he gave them power and influence as the police which they failed to use to its full potential.Quote:
and they did want a kage? you dont overthrow a village unless you want the number one spot. why go through a coup and a potential civil war over gaining political positions that can be gained by vote? they shouldve worked on people relations and winning over the people instead of planning a coup and the fact that they waitde 50+ years in a time of peace when the warm hearted 3rd was kage proves they were power hungry. he loved everyone so why would they want to overthrow him?
k at the beginning of the manga itachi stated that you had to kill your bestfriend, then it turned out the death of a strong bond of a lover or family will activate it. but heres the thing if itachi didnt know about seeing a friend die when he was so knowledgeable of uchiha history, how many other do you think didnt?Quote:
this page proves that their had to be various ms and ems users. if izanami and izanagi are both ms techs and izanagi was used to subdue the arrogant ones by more experienced uchiha that means that there had to be more than just a few users and seeing as they like to act first, think later im more inclined to think they killed their friends plus with madara as their leader with that much power a lot of uchiha would look up to him and try to gain the same level of strength
he didnt nuture shit. they planned the coup in a time of peace 50+ years later. if they worked on forgetting the blood shed and on people relations not just power they probably wouldve seen the big picture like itachi and shisui. if they had waited and trusted the people they probably wouldve gotten their ''power'' back even though they now had more power as the police and the senju had no special privilege at all. hashirama was voted kage due to his character, madra wouldve probably been second if he wasnt soo arrogant to the wants and needs of others. the uchiha had many chances to prove their loyalty and gain political stature in konoha they just didnt use their assets like itachi and shisui properly.Quote:
the uchiha were moved cause their former leader just attacked the village. they failed to see he tarnished their image and they were still given a huge influence over konoha as the police. they had options and unlike the people of color in the 50's they choose power over peace. mlk lead people and told them not to shed blood whoile their were being attacked by police, dogs and kkk members all across us while not shedding blood. they had no power and keep pushing forward without anger. the uchiha are the police and have major influence on everyone, even the governent. are you saying the people of color in the 50's had as much power and influence as the police? my late relatives must be doing cartwheels in their gravesQuote:
they didnt have to be as ruthless they were in a time of peace which is why they didnt need to steal each others eyes and it explains why there was less sharigan users than they had in the past. their planning of a coup does mean they were power hungry. if they planned it during tobiramas reign it would make sense, but they waited 50+ years when hiruzen was kage and none of the survivors of the old days were alive. they failed to let go off their past, tobirama still made them police after madara attacked so dont make him out to be the ultimate douche when they had choices.Quote:
k im done with this argument so im gonna leave it at this. at the end of the day the uchiha had 3 options to pick fromQuote:
1) work their asses off as the new police to rid suspicions of any madara followers. by doing so they would gain people relations and the favor of the council and it wouldve restored their image
2) sit back and accept their new position and over time let their innocence be shown through lack of action towards konoha
3) try to regain power by force
everything in life comes down to either yes or no, you either do or you dont and in this case the uchiha had 3 clear options and choose the one most brutal and ignorant. they had options and the fact that 50+ years past and they were in the same position means they failed to see those options clearly and picked the most irresponsible one.
everyone in life has choices and if you try to justify yours by the actions of another than you are blind and ignorant. colored peopled in america were enslaved for hundreads of years and still choose peace and not to harm others even though they were being beaten and killed marching for equality. dont compare the uchiha to the colored people any more or real life situations cause its insulting, the fact that your comparing a universal struggle of peace to a few pissed off uchiha is ridiculous
what makes the uchiha above peace? what justifies thier actions, tobiramas? pfft thats ignorant and childish and its why the uchiha got killed off. they arent above the law and dont deserve to do whatever and attack the village just because they were wronged. countless villages had been destroyed and clans wiped out, the world is a bad place but they felt like they were getting pick on,boo hoo, they need get the fuck over it it im sure they wiped out a few clans in their prime as one of the strongest warrior clans so why dont they try a new way of approaching things. they arent above talking and peace so dont place them in the leagues of gods who have no faults and can do as they please cause theyre a little hurt. i know tobirama was wrong but he still honored them as the police, what they did was unnecessary and not needed in a time of peace 50 years later when all is supposed to be forgotten
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 11, 2013 at 01:43 PM.
I think it'll help if we get a timeline of the events that lead to the situation.
Considering we still have to hear a fair bit of it, let's consider what's below temporary ( I tried to use Viz's official scanlation whenever possible, not being american I don't have access to it, so those are images I found on the net ) :
- Senju purpose a truce, Uchihas accept. The Konoha village is born.
- Hashirama is elected Hokage, Madara is against it. Uchihas turn their back at him, so he challenges Hashirama at VOTE.
- Madara "dies", and Hashirama is free to rule as a Hokage. He dies, and Tobirama takes his place.
- Knowing quite a few Uchihas followed Madara's ideals, he keeps Uchihas under watch, using the Police to both show Uchihas that Konoha trustes them and to better keep watch on the clan.
This enrages the Uchihas.
- Kyuubi attack happens, The leader of the future (?) coup is missing, and it seems every other Uchiha is missing too.
Konoha blames the Uchihas, and Uchihas are kept under heavy watch.
- Uchihas plan a coup to overthrow Konoha.
Apparently only those too young to know were kept in the dark. Itachi and Shisui are the only Uchihas to act against the coup.
Shisui tried to stop the coup and failed, gives his remaining eye to Itachi and suicides.
Danzou forces Itachi's hand, and Itachi agrees to kill all Uchihas.
He seeks Tobi, and massacres the Uchihas bar Sasuke.
@Schabrak If you ever bothered yourself at looking a few pages back, I have made a lot of lengthy posts on the issue. As for this post, then I am allowed to think whichever way I desire; this is also an opinion.
Last edited by shahdan; February 11, 2013 at 01:50 PM.
Now, the questions that need an answer:
1) How did the Senju come to offer the truce? Was it Hashirama pushing it on his own as the leader? Was Tobirama shown against it? Unlikely that we will get an answer. For all we know, Tobirama and Hashirama had a disagreement about some matters surrounding the Uchiha, but to which extent, we don't know.
2) As I asked before, how did Tobirama come to conclusion that there were Madara supporters? Did they voice a protest to his leadership? Was it all a paranoia on Tobirama's side? Did they show anything to be suspected?
3) The Uchiha massacre didn't happen right after the Kyuubi attack. What sort of an investigation was led to pursue the faint evidence that the Kyuubi can only be controlled by an Uchiha this well?
4) How did the Elders come to the conclusion that negotiations weren't an option after that point? Considering Hiruzen remained all silent to this argument means there was one side of truth to it.
5) Last but not least, what does Hashirama have to say about these incidents? Did he foresee anything that could hint it in his lifetime?
Frankly speaking, we probably cannot say anything about those story holes at this point, or at least, not something beyond speculation.
In the light of recent events, after Hashirama the senju obviously backed Tobirama fully and given the circumstances, I can see that after decades of segregation this coup was bound to happen, as Senju clan did virtually nothing to discard their hate and prejudice. Whilst the other side endeavoured through out the history to patch up the bonds after Konoha was formed. This guy basically exercised his prejudices quite effectively. All you talk about are uchiha short-comings, when Madara's personality and prejudice pales in comparison to this man's blatantly lopsided logic.
---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------
my logic isnt lopsided, im pointing out the flaws or the uchiha cause everyone has been bashing tobirama like moving the uchiha wasnt the sensible thing to do, i dont condone his actions but they were for the good of the village and not just out of his own petty problems with them. if you read my earlier posts you'd of seen that and as kage tobirama doesnt have to win their trust seeing as he has the trust of the village. they can either roll with the laws or get the fuck outta konoha if they dont like it. their leader just attacked the village and you think no one would be suspicious of them? thats ridiculous, all eyes would be on them in case of further attack. they got the title of police to prove their worth and loyalty and they failed to seize the opportunity, if tobirama wasnt completely biased and a harsh ruler as most of you are claiming to be than they wouldve NEVER gained the position of the police. he saw their worth and thought it could go to good us and used it as a test of faith which the uchiha were blind to and failed miserably.
both sides are wrong but the uchihas actions as a result of tobiramas are riduclous, especially 50+ years later when no one even remembers the fight and only like 4 senju have been shown :l and i love how you chopped up my argument to make it look like i was completely in favor of tobirama, at least upload my whole post cause honestly my last paragraph in that post made this response irrelevant, im just repeating myself at this point
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 11, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 AM ----------
A government official doesn't need to win the trust of the people he's ruling over? This is...I don't even.
P.s: Why should I quote all of your post when I only wanted to post counters for these points?
Last edited by shahdan; February 11, 2013 at 03:37 PM.
The Uchiha clan was never feared by the rest of Konoha when it was first founded. No, they were respected for their power, and if they were in fact feared, they were feared just as much as the Senju clan.
Madara was feared, yes. But guess what, The Uchiha ousted him and Hashirama "killed him". So saying Tobirama did this because other people feared the Uchiha is just wrong.
Also, if the Uchiha hated anyone, it would be the Senju or people that hurt their clan. What reason would Konoha ninja have for hurting the Uchiha that would make the Uchiha hurt them? The Uchiha have and would protect their comrades, Uchiha or not. Thus, the only people who should have been fearful of the Uchiha was anyone that was an enemy of Konoha.
---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------
The Hokage is a War Lord. He is appointed by a Feudal Lord and sworn in with the approval of the Jounins who only represent a small portion of the populace. Everyone could have very little trust for him, but if he passes those two tests then boom he's Hokage. Just look at Danzou he was Hoakge (granted he cheated) but was Hokage with little to no trust from anyone other than his direct subordinates.
Last edited by Delbi; February 11, 2013 at 06:53 PM.
^ I know what you are saying, but keep in mind the factor of 'two clans forming a village' who previously were mercenary groups used as common thugs by several nations. Here wining the trust of the other clan after the formation of Konoha was vital, as both clans mistrusted one another, and trust was a vital factor here. If a Hokage after the truce did nothing to quell their fears, he has spat in the face of 'truce' logic. Wasn't that the whole idea behind truce?
---------- Post added at 01:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 AM ----------
Is that all you wanted to say? No offense, but I hardly agree with you on your opinions. And guess what? That is just another opinion.
Anyone would be fearful if a former leader attacked the village. maybe not of the leaders but of the potential threat. look what happened after 9/11, that hate for muslims exploded after one attack when clearly it was only one small faction that attacked and had warped the views of an entire nation of people. the same thing applies to madara and konoha, he attacked the village when peace was already frail, anyone would be scared of a potential battle of coup that could ensue. you make it seem like he was the worst when he wasnt. tobiramas actions werent just but to put the nation at ease he had to do what he did just to stop the threat of an immidiate attack and to make the uchiha not look completely bad he made them into the force that regulates and inforces justice in konoha. that is a fuckin huge title and responsibilty alone. i dont supprt tobirama actions but the uchiha had choices that they clearly ignored
dont you have to be elected to get in the government? you may not have to win them over while your in office but to get to that position the people need to trust you, doesnt matter how much power or potential you have if you cant connect with the people than your worthless. its this exact reason why madara wasnt elected kage and why hiruzen picked minato over oro. konoha isnt some iron fist government, the people seem pretty involved with whats going on outside of the shaddy ass root but they are the equivalent to the cia or fbi so were not supposed to know what theyre doing
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 11, 2013 at 04:35 PM.
You can believe whatever you want to about those unknowns or leeway for his actions, however not everyone would agree.
The Uchiha have a psychic problem that everyone were able to see. They had an irrational behavior that comes along with their power. Tobirama tried to channel this behavior by it he couldn't and they continued to kill each other. Itachi also noted that the Uchiha killed one another to gain power leading to the invention of Izanami. All these clue show that the Uchiha were the first danger for themselves. Hence Tobirama being concerned with the consequences of this irrational behavior on the future of the village. Specifically when this already existing behavior is coupled with the emergence of new Madara's follower growing among them. As Hokage and one that must be fair, he knew that he couldn't just throw them away and dishonor them. This lead to creating the military police and giving them control over it. At the same time, the Hokage needed to ensure the safety of the entire village by keeping them under control. This gave birth to giving them a place to live together.
No matter whatever interpretation each fan want to give, we must keep these aspect in mind. Itachi killed them, but sacrificed himself to restore the Honor of the clan - at least that is what he wanted. I 100% positive that his solution was irrational - I mean coming from an Uchiha whether he had choice or not.
Note: I feel really hilarious that all the people who are arguing against Tobirama fail to consider the whole picture. This is like if the Uchiha's lawyers have become themselves Uchiha.
My original questions still stand; did the senju clan ever try to shed their hatred, when the Uchiha clan clearly had? Did they try to win their trust, when Uchihas did just that by ousting the leader who didn't value truce? The term 'truce' here which became the sole reason for creation of Konoha is of utmost importance, as without 'trusting each-other' there wouldn't have been a Konoha in the first place.
Tobirama didn't uphold any of the reasons behind the 'truce' or the factors that led to Konoha's creation. If he had, he would not have cornered another group he was supposed the share the nation with.
Last edited by shahdan; February 11, 2013 at 04:41 PM.
1.no i didnt, youre mistaken. the cia and fbi dont influence the people they work in the shadows. whens the last time a cia agent came up to you and said ''hey this, this and this is what were doing in the shadows!'' urgh stop putting words in my mouth and twisting my views. they are elected on the basis of trust, each kage has to be approved by a council so your saying that the elders and the feudal lords of konoha are all wrong when they elect a kage?
2. there was someone strong enough to take the kage seat and that was tobirama, the fact that he got voted in means he was capable of doing the job.
3. the senju clearly shed their hatred, we've only seen one senju hating on the uchiha, which is tobirama but we've seen countless arrogant uchiha. its like he said once an uchiha goes to far down their path its hard for them to change. look at madara and obito, they think their views are right when the whole world is fighting them off saying no.
4. tobirama didnt have any reason to uphold the truce why should he? Why should he have to stop and give the uchiha a special treat just because they get picked on, no oher clan has gotten privelege like uchiha and they did nothing to deserve it. they had no reason to plan a coup and attack konoha as a whole, why didnt they just attack the senju?
youre letting your own opinions influence the matter. the senju havent been shown to be a hateful or evil clan but the way you speak of them makes it seem like they are the same as the uchiha when they are polar opposites. we've seen one arrogant senju but we've many arrogant uchiha and theyre known for their cockiness so dont sugar coat them and make them into puppies when theyre clearly a spiteful clan who cant escape their own pride and arrogance. what makes them above peace talks? nothing. they couldve taken a difernt road but didnt. their actions led to their demise not tobiramas. Tobirama was an obstable for them to overcomehe wasnt somr impervious wall of douchery otherwise they wouldnt have become the police
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 11, 2013 at 05:02 PM.