Interesting view of Tobirama, so that means we're back to "It's all Danzous fault." Guess this guy's the one who did the most damage to the village.
Ironicly he was also one who loved the village tlil his brutal death.
But coming back to Tobirama. I think that a genius like him and a genius like Hiruzen, both Hokage and probobly blessed with smart advisors (excluding Danzou) should've realized the problems coming up with Uchiha.
I also cannot understand why espiecially Hiruzen let Danzou do his shit and not noticing that/doing something about it. Thats pretty pathetic if you ask me. Thats probobly also a thing we can ask Minato, why he didn't do anything about Danzou - but probobly hes the one who did the less to this situation as he wasn't Hokage THAT long...
There are multiple options, all of which better than simply pointing their homicidal tendencies in the opposite direction.Originally Posted by so6pww
1: Fuuinjutsu. We've seen that chakra can be suppressed with sealing techniques. A seal on the Uchiha's body that suppresses the chakra that alters their brains whenever they begin going mad would keep them in control of their powers. This way, any time they need a power boost they simply have their "handler" remove the seal long enough for them to do so.
The seal would only be placed on those who are truly willing to seek help, which would be the best way to weed out the "bad" Uchiha from the "good" Uchiha. They don't get any weaker because the seal can be released to activate MS, and seal it again when their hatred goes out of control. And I don't think any of them would've been offended by the option because as Tobirama said "they sealed off their emotions". They did so to avoid losing control. That means they really do seek to suppress their hatred. They want to be normal.
2: Respect. Not from the village, from the HEADS of the village. Tobirama made no attempt to hide the fact that he despises Uchiha when faced with an Uchiha. So I don't think for one second he treated them with respect when he was around them. Hell, look at how Hashirama acted. His douchebagery was nothing new. I think if he would've spoken with the head of the clan (whoever that was) and explained to him his fears he would've worked with him to avoid tragedy. Together they could've worked out something. Anything, other than simply pointing their hate in another direction.
3: Honesty. Each clan should have a representitive on the Kage's board. No secrets. NONE. And I know what kinda reply this one is gonna get:
"Um, the other clans were never direct rivals with Konoha, so they can ask for a representitive... but the Uchiha can't be trusted."
Well, you'd be wrong. The Uchiha were never rivals with Konoha. They were rivals with the Senju. Tobirama's experiences with the Uchiha was based on Senju/Uchiha relations. Konohagakure was ruled over by the Senju, but it was not a Senju organization and thus, shouldn't be considered as such. The slate should've been whiped clean after Madara, but it wasn't.
And let's be honest: why be afraid the Uchiha would attack the village after they lose loved ones... if they were Konoha ninja? The only enemies they would murder with their super scary badguy eyes is non-Konoha citizens. Unless ofcourse they were being persecuted. I also wanna point out that the only ones that called it a coup were Obito and Tobirama.
The Uchiha called it a Revolution.
"heh... an uchiha... its just like one to keep such company"
"besides you can't blame me for skewing things I did after what Madara pulled..."
^blatant prejudice against every single Uchiha just for something their renegade leader did.
Thats like branding all Muslims as potential dangerous religious fanatics and shoving them all into the same bucket because of what Osama Binladen did... after all there could rise a new Osama from their ranks any day.
That is racism, plain and simple. Him having "good intentions" doesn't change anything. If the USA suddenly had a president who starts taking away rights from black people in an attempt to reduce crime, then he also has "good intentions" (reducing crime) but it won't change the fact that his approach is just utter bullshit.
I'm sure Hitler also had all the best intentions, just bringing security to his village (aka germany).
Honestly, I think Tobirama was just paranoid as hell.
Re-read the manga, madara gain supporters only after his appearent death because of Tobirama,s repressive measures. NOT A SINGLE UCHIHA SUPPORTED MADARA FOR HOKAGE SHIP NOR FOR HIS ATTACK ON HASHIRAMA AND THE VILLAGE. Even the 1 month-old baby in his bed turned his back on madara... then his parents turned him back to prevent suffocation.
Not a single Uchiha was supporting Madara's actions. Those Uchiha, Setsuna and friends:
... that both Tobi and Tobirama talked about appeared AFTER Nidaime's Uchiha Repression Bill, not before. And as I and others said it before, Tobirama's decision was the best at all. Uchiha were never a threat to the Alliance, dried up mentalities like his were.
And no, the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai is not a result of psychic troubles, even if Sharingan activates under pstressed situation. Because surely Obito activated his Sharingan and saved Kakashi because he was mentally unstable, right? nidaime did like Tobi: the best way to put up a lie is to surround it with truth.
Never did the Uchiha acted against the village until the repressions went to far in their eyes. And Nidaime didn't allow them crap, he's no peacemaker. the Uchiha, as you seem to have forgotten, are the co-founding members of Konoha, they were part of the government before Nidaime pushed them away and put them in the police near the prison.
And the Uchiha excel at everything just like the Senju, that's why in centuries and centuries the Senju-Uchiha conflict never had a winner, they were each other's unstoppable force facing an unmovable object, until Hashirama proposed a truce. So saying them being no longer in the government and participating in the rest of the activities just like the other clans and being put in the police being the right and better thing to do is plain ridiculous. Nidaime could just as well put his fellow Senju in the police- oh, no, wait, that's beloved clan, forget that.
The Uchiha, before Tobirama's actions, were already in position of power by Senju's side, Tobirama tossed them out. And he could just murder them as you put it, a monster genius like Itachi doesn't appear every year.
Nidaime plan it all, Danzou and co. put up the final part.
The Senju used the village as a coat-shield against konoha while attackingg them despite the trucea and alliance, that's what Tobirama did. Uchiha were no threat to the village, they built it and made those other clans join the Alliance too. Then Nidaime got slick and snaky and pushed them away by taking advantage of Madara's attack to do what his clan never managed to do during the old War Era: defeat the Uchiha. Tobirama read the Art of War by Sun Tsu and The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli and with Danzou, managed to destroy Uchiha in a multi-generational plot. The "virtue" of patience and fake association.
"How many times did I tell you to stop persecuting the Uchiha!?", said Hashirama to his younger brother. Tobirama didn't live in konoha as long as sarutobi, most of his life the Uchiha were THE ENEMY. He didn't change even if he cared for the village and used biased opinon about the Uchiha to do something that shouldn't happen to begin with.
Most of the solutions\opinions here are rather creative, but I doubt any of us experienced war so we can't say for sure if what Tobirama did was wrong. Hashirama also knew that the Uchiha were a cursed clan and can see where his brother is coming from. While he didn't like his brothers way of doing thinks, he clearly didn't go against it because he knew it was for the better, and even knew how the Uchiha are. This can be seen from his regretful face here.
There is also Itachi, he believed the same thing as Danzo and Tobirama, but people are not judging him because he's their main man. He took the same solution and found that killing his clan was the best option for sake of the village.
You can say that Tobirama's choice was what started all this, but it's not like he did it intentionally. He did it as a sign of good faith, he knew the Uchiha were a soft clan, but he didn't think they were a clan of Teletubbies who would be so emotionally affected and insulted just because they weren't in the top.
It was after the Kyuubi's incident that they were completely doubted, however, they were doubted and feared only by the higher authorities of Konoha. While all the ordinary villagers were still proud of them as "Konoha's strongest clan". But it was indeed an Uchiha's fault that the Kyuubi's attack happened. It was their softness and Teletubbies-ness that constantly made them cause almost all major problems.
They take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, that's why they were feared. It's different from racism. Tobirama and Danzo didn't hate the Uchiha because of who they are, they feared the Uchiha because of what they turn to be. It's like calling someone racist for isolating someone with a deadly contagious disease.
Itachi knew that, and eventually took on Tobirama and Danzo's way of thinking. He knew that wanting to satisfy everyone was just an empty dream. He knew that the world was not all roses and rainbows and that the right measures have to be taken in order to protect the village. The world is as Jiraya said, harsh and unforgiving, the right decision has to be made. For example, Danzo's order for killing Sasuke is harsh and doesn't satisfy everyone, but it's the absolute right choice and the most reasonable one.
I'm not supporting either sides here, but people are bashing Tobirama too much. He did what nearly evey other reasonable human would have done for the sake of his village.
Last edited by KingOfNight; February 08, 2013 at 02:48 AM.
As for their abuse of power, I think that was a proof of trust:
can Uchihas be trusted? Until the coup, everyone can say they could. And his "open hatred" couldn't be open, considering he had an Uchiha in his team.
And then would an Uchiha, a founding clan, accept the same position of other clans while 2 Senjus were Hokages? I don't think so. The police thing can be seen as a way to appeal to them, considering they were a warrior clan
He didn't isolate them, the isolation began after the Kyuubi incident.Quote:
And even then, Uchihas were part of the village, could mingle with the village and all that. Remember the teachers words about Itachi?
Doesn't mean everything he did was part of a plan to kill Uchihas, that came later with Danzou
Tobirama lived all his life fighting against Uchihas, meaning, as he said, he saw countless Uchihas go mad when they lost someone they loved.Quote:
Also, as Oro said, he seemed pretty scarred by Madara.
I think its best to see the full story behind before making wild assumptions, considering next chapter its Hashirama's turn to talk.
I agree they didn't deserve to be wiped out, but that was not a Konoha's act, it was all Danzou, and Itachi agreed with it, like Hiruzen said, taking it as a personal mission.
And let's not forget Obito, which clearly had some connection with Danzou, if we go by the comment he made when they saw each other:
"last time we met, it was during the Uchiha massacre"
---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 AM ----------
They don't talk about Madara going crazy, they talk about Uchihas going crazy
And then why both Obito and Tobirama claimed there were quite a few Uchihas that took Madara's ideals as their own?Quote:
And how do we know what happened if no one showed it to us?
How do we know the full story behind it if the manga itself hasn't shown us everything?
And no, they weren't in a position of force before Tobirama, the village had to chose a leader and they chose Hashirama.
The rest of the clans were equals, be it Senjus, Uchihas, Hyuugas or Naras.
I think you are going quite ahead of yourself, considering we still have to know Hashirama and Madara's part of the story.Quote:
As for this being part of Tobirama's master plan... I find it unlikely, if an absolute fanfiction.
I also suggest you reread Obito's tale to Sasuke and last chapter, Uchihas weren't spineless maggots, they were a proud clan of proud warrior, would they accept to be treated like any other clan?
I don't think so
Binladen wasn't alone either, he had tons of followers and its no secret that the Muslim religion can give birth to some dangerous philosophies. But that still doesn't make it right to lump them all together.
Doing so would not only be immoral, but in the long run it would make things only worse. Suddenly all the decent people among them who have nothing to do with the fanatics would be forced to make a choice: either surrender to oppression and injustice, or side with the fanatics to fight for their own self-preservation.
That above example is pretty much exactly what Tobirama has caused.
Last edited by LnDRash; February 08, 2013 at 04:38 AM.
you know the clan has an inherited mental disorder, you know a good bit of fanatics have Madara's ideals, and you know that, should another Madara arise the village would risk utter annihilation.
What he does?
He gives the Uchihas a position of trust, but he also make it so they can be eliminated should something arise.
Did Tobirama killed the Uchihas? No.
Did the village discriminate the Uchihas? No, otherwise you wouldn't have people going on about how great Uchihas are, considering also the parents never warned their kids not to befriend Sasuke like they did with Naruto.
Did the village did anything hurtful against Uchihas before the Kyuubi accident? We don't know, but considering they were "segregated" after the incident I don't think so.
Were Uchihas killed for no reason? They planned to overthrow the Hokage, before that we don't have mentions of anyone mistreating Uchihas.
Was Tobirama right in the end? Apparently.
Was Tobirama justified in what he did, or without faults? Hell no, he has a huge responsibility, but it wasn't some master plan, but simply his mistake.
Just like creating Edo Tensei.
Tobirama was "suspecting" Madara followers, but he didn't actually have a clue. From all we know there where no Madara sympathisers until Tobirama pulled that Police-Force stunt.
His concerns only came true because he did everything in his might to make them true.Quote:
Its like if I would voice concern about a house being in danger of catching fire... so to prevent that I start depositing highly flammable chemicals in that house basement and then I go there every day to make a campfire.
And later, once the house finally burns down, I'll act all high and mighty "See!? Didn't I tell you!?".
Call we wrong but...
Isnt this a manga about ninjas?
Arent normally emotions a general taboo for ninjas?
Surprising this comes from an american. xD Guns dont kill people. People kill people. And with this: Jutsu dont kill ninjas. Ninjas kill ninjas.Quote:
For all we know Tobirama had a pretty good reason to suspect Uchihas, which will known during Hashirama/Madara flashbacks, if Kishi wants to expand the "Uchiha are cursed" thing.
As for his stunt, would you blindly trust the same force that followed Madara during his time ( because, during Tobirama's time, Uchihas were the same clan that fought with Senjus all this time ), and that you know can turn on you whenever they want, having the means and the power to do that?
And he himself tried to create a situation when Uchihas would earn back that trust.
It backfired, true, but it wasn't a plan to massacre them all.
Madara died and Hashirama did too, the difference was that, while Hashirama was one of a kind, the Uchiha's curse could pretty well spurr another Madara.
Fortunately for Konoha, Itachi was an insightful and wise kid
Actually they even endured that unfair treatment for decades... it wasn't until the Kyuubi incident and the new imputations that the Uchihas had enough and started to rebel.
Yes I would.Quote:
Because all of those people openly turned their back on that leader. Madara was like "lol wtf dis shit?! Lets gank those bishes and I'll become leader!" but those "followers" just said "Dude... piss off Mads! Hashi is fine leader, if you can't accept that: get lost! Cause we won't help ya!"
Then that banished leader even got presumably killed by Hashirama, which should have been enough to disperse any second thoughts about some possible hidden agenda going on... but apparantly for Tobirama it wasn't.
Those clans both founded the village, they should have been complete equals. But Tobirama striped that away from them, he didn't want them to have any say in politics. Genocide isn't the only way to spread injustice and upset people.Quote:
Yes, it "could".Quote:
But "guilty by default until proven innocent" never worked so well. The best you could do to prevent another Madara is making sure whatever led to Madara becoming the way he was not repeating itself... but certainly not poking the nest of potential Madaras with a stick until they get angry and all of them transform at once.
They were watched, true, but they also had more power than any other clan in Konoha.
Its not like someone forced them to become arrogant
While you have a point, I see them being appointed as the Village Police as an act of trust.Quote:
It was Tobirama's fault thinking about them only as a powerful force, and not as a prideful clan that would get nothing good from it. Remember Itachi's speech to Sasuke, when they were little?
Being part of the Police was an Uchiha's pride, because they were protecting the village.
Being a Senju doesn't mean you are to be Hokage, to be Hokage you need the approval of the Jounins, the Council and the Daimyo.Quote:
Was Hiruzen a Senju? Was Yondaime a Senju? Why didn't Hiruzen consider Tsunade for the Fourth position, but only Minato and Orochimaru?
I did say that Tobirama was mistaken, I'm not trying to say he's right, I'm trying to justify why he thought appropriate to do what he did.Quote:
The fact that he messed up big time is the plain truth, Orochimaru said as much pretty clearly