Ulquiorra (His segunda etapa made him the most powerful)
Starrk (He's got those unstoppable spirit wolves).
Wonderwiess (He was Aizen's trump card/possibly beat Kensei)
Yammi (He's the only espada remaining, and he's ranked 0)
Barragan (His respira can age everything)
Well, before timeskip he couldn't bring down Aizen only because Aizen had Hougioku, since he managed to get a great hit, but Hougioku regenerated Aizen. In a normal sircumstances such a wouynd would seriously decrease Aizen's capability to fight.
And it was all way before Ichi managed to merge his Shinigami and Hollow powers that obviously makes him stronger and he also merged these powers with Fullbring. When he was fighting Ginjo his Shikai Getsuga was compared or bigger than his Bankai Getsuga, when he used Mask... So yes I do believe that Ichigo as he was in this Arc, especially after unlocking his Quincy powers would have taken Aizen down.
Well, he did get a hit however he also had a decent amount of help. Aizen had just taken a hit from yamamoto and ichigo did not even manage to kill aizen on the spot. More so, when ichigo did confront aizen on his owns so to speak he had his ass handed to him at every turn. Ichigo was certainly not at his best determination wise but he was still a captain class fighter whose bankai was stopped by aizen's bare hands.
I don't think ichigo's shikai getsuga was ever as big as was he did with mask and bankai earlier though. Even if size was relevant in that context, it was not even remote close to even his regular pre time skip bankai let alone his masked bankai getsuga tensho.
The way I see it what happened with ichigo's power was basically that his hollow powers manifested through the fullbring he learned from ginjo. Basically now instead of mask his hollow powers take on the form of the armor. The result is that even shikai ichigo is using some degree of his hollow powers and his bankai even enhances that. So shikai ichigo is just about as strong or perhaps a bit stronger than his previous basic bankai form and his current bankai form is proportionally stronger. So ichigo right now is stronger than what he was at his best without his transcendental power (the one that took down aizen). What would even be the point of making ichigo as strong as aizen? Would it make sense his bankai was that easily destroyed if he was that strong even if he was tired? Ichigo would by all intents and purposes currently exceed the entire might of the gotei 13, the espada and in all likelihood the very stern ritern on his own if that was the case. I don't think ichigo is only going to fight juhabach during this arc for that matter and I honestly doubt there will be someone of aizen's caliber among vandenreich other than juhabach (who in all likelihood is actually stronger than aizen but still). Heck, if ichigo was as strong as you claim and there is someone in vandenreich other than juhabach capable of standing up to ichigo then I don't even see why vandenreich even needed the medallions, there would have been 2 warriors in vandenreich who individually exceed the entire might of the gotei 13. Not only ichigo has not actually shown to be as strong as aizen was but also it wouldn't make sense plotwise. Ichigo will probably go back to being a god among ants as he was against aizen in the future but I would argue that will be a tad closer to the end of the manga.
Yammy had nothing besides reiatsu. Nothing. He was a brute in every sense of the word, that even Ichigo at his lowest point of despair could toy with him (Until more Hollow issues interfered) even in bankai. Without shouting GT & without effort, he embarrassed Yammy.
All he had was reiatsu & reiatsu doesn't compensate for lack of skill. Ulquiorra explained it already that Yammy's lack of skill is not something to laugh it. It's really bad. It's especially bad when (turned big), he couldn't properly perceive his surroundings due to his sizes & at some point, he brought Zaraki right up to his face, giving Zaraki a chance to strike his face (& A sword strike that cuts the face is KO). It's also bad when tired, beat up, Arrancar Rukia, Renji & Chad could run circles around him.
But you can't counter this statement because it's the manga being slammed right at your face if you conceive of even trying. If Reiatsu = Being the strongest, Arrancar Ichigo & Aizen would be at the same level (Remember when Unohana made such a deal about Ichigo's reiatsu? It was as much as Aizen's reiatsu but it's quite obvious that the two beings weren't at the same lvl at that time).
On the other note I have no Idea why you brought this up "In the last Arc before actually getting his Bankai broken Ichigo was obviously stronger than base pre-Hougioku Aizen, so I also don't get your irony on that point..." because not once did I reference that point at all. Perhaps you weren't talking to me?
The last point you brought up ("....when your Reiatsu is considerably higher, then you will just negate your oponent's abilities") only matters when two spirit beings clash swords in a battle of reiatsu. It's time to make this clear once & for all. It was explained perfectly by Zaraki that when two spiritual beings clash, "collide", slam into, hit each other, the being with "stronger" reiatsu wins. Notice how the manga didn't say the being with "more" reiatsu or "better looking" reiatsu or "scariest looking" reiatsu wins, the manga says, the being with "stronger", the being possessing more powerful reiatsu not bountiful reiatsu, quality not quantity wins the clash.
In order words, two beings would first have to collide but to determine who is "stronger" during this collision, the being emitting the "stronger", more powerful reiatsu would win. No wonder Arrancar Ichigo (who uses a lot of his power) lost to Aizen (Aizen using little to no effort) at every clash, at every collision, at every confrontation, despite both of them having twices the reiatsu of a captain, despite having similar quantity. The force Aizen was emitting was simply stronger.
It's remarkable how the subject is bringing about so much confusion. http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...05-page-7.html
The espada were ranked according to whom had MORE reiatsu, they were ranked by Quantity, they were ranked by whom had more water in their bottle than who had the cleanest drinking water in their bottle (Bad example but it would have to do).
---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------
Sure, pick the example when Ichigo wasn't trying & never said the name of GT rather than he example of when he actually tried
http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/460/18 http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/461 http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/461/2 & split the heavens in the process or this example http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/461/7 or this example when he actually tried http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/491/9 & it look as though it was as big as Las Noches. I can't help but keep laugh at how you try to bring about your points.
Zangestu & Hollow are one & the same. They merged thus they are both Ichigo's shinigami powers. When Ichigo obtained his new powers, he transcended the power of the shinigami http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...66-page-9.html
There is a difference between a fact & an opinion kkck. The point I'm stating is factual while on your end, you are relying solely on what you "believe", "the way
I(you) see it". & You've demonstrated the tendency to continually do this (& Torran had exposed you for it, though I must admit, his points actually opened my eyes to certain truths about the manga as well).
Last edited by Kay3795; April 09, 2013 at 05:57 AM.
It isn't a flawed logic. It's something that is shown throughout the entire manga and confirmed by Aizen himself. Kenpachi is also a brute without any skill, but he managed to take down super-skilled Unohana with tons of her experience.Quote:
As I stated before. Kenpachi is also nothing but brute strength and he is currently the strongest member of Gotei after Shunsui...Quote:
The same Ichigo is the same. 0 skill - tons of brute strength and Reiatsu. I chigo just prooved that his Reiatsu is higher than Yammy's. Also He did use Getsuga against Yammy and used his Mask. At the same time Yammy easily managed to get up... without even a wound.
Well to take down Yammy 2 Captains were needed at their full power and both of them were among strongest apart from the oldest. So I don't get what actually counters my statement?Quote:
Well, I don't get why you are trying to counter actual fact that is stated by Kubo himself that Reiatsu is strength for the most part. If a person has bigger Reiatsu he wins, especially if the difference is big. The same Aizen negated Soi Fong's Shikai ability with pure Reiatsu... And also the same Arrancars. Their strength is based on their Reiatsu level, so skill doesn't matter in that part. Yammy is the strongest Espada and it was confirmed.Quote:
I don't get how you can twist my words in such a way? I clearly stated my pointed - the more Reiatsu you have - you win. And it's obviously stated and shown throughout the entire manga... Kenpachi, Aizen, Ichigo, Yammy are the clear examples.Quote:
Well, Ichi was the one who got the best and the only clean hit on Aizen in the War. He couldn't kill Aizen mostly due to Hougioku, while Aizen obviously wouldn't be able to fight as good if he hadn't got a help from Hougiouku.
It ,ight be a matter of impression, but I still see Ichi's Shikai Getsuga after timeskip bigger and stronger than before timeskip, especially, when he used it the first time against Ginjou.Quote:
Well, Aizen wasn't stronger than entire Gotei or entire Espada. I do believe that without illusions he would have been taken down even just by Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana combined if it would have been needed, but they were under illusions, so they were not sure how Aizen might trick them with illusions.Quote:
About Ichigo's power. It's obviously stronger than his pre-dangai form, but still weaker than it. I don't think that current Ichigo in Bankai can take down entire Gotei, but he can still take most of the Captains at the same time with it. Most of them are just weaklings.
And about Hollow powers and Fullbring... I think that the Mask we've seen before merged with Ichigo's Shinigami powers and Fullbring is a separate power, even though it's connected to his Hollow powers and both of his Hollow originated powers seem to be always on.
And Aizen's words can't be taken at face value either. He said that Shinigami fight with reiatsu, stop the presses! But how many times do they actually throw their reiatsu around? There are only a few relevant examples, such as Ichigo vs Kenpachi and later Ichigo vs Byakuya, in both cases they just poured their remaining reiatsu into a single attack. But what happened later? Ichigo, putting his entire reiatsu into a single GT whilst using his mask couldn't even scratch Ulquiorra, yet he could with a normal sword slash in their final fight. Stronger reiatsu is irrelevant if you can't apply it.
By the way, Soifon stabbed Aizen, regardless if he negated her ability. I'd like to see reiatsu try to stop her blade, which is not going to be easy because unlike Ichigo, Soifon has experience in controlling it and can put it to good use, and doesn't have to burn it all into a single attack just to give Aizen a paper cut.
Give me ONE example from the fight where his reiatsu or strength influenced the outcome of the fight. Say it. I dare you, I double dare you. You can't, because I'm asking you for the impossible. It was purely a SWORD FIGHT between expert SWORDSMEN. Unohana had the best reflexes and agility, as well as mastered every flow and had hidden weapons up her sleeve which made her a walking Swiss knife. Kenpachi at first sucked big time and gave her many openings and couldn't even react to her sword, but eventually he got better reflexes, more agile and could counter attack. It's was made very clear that at first he just sucked but as time went by he got more used to the battle and started to become more adept at fighting with a sword.Quote:
Why is it that everybody just skips over that dialogue and oversimplifies it so that it comes to strength or reiatsu? It's like the most critical part of the damn fight.
Actually, now I have a second request of you, and this one is even harder. Name me one example where it's even IMPLIED that Unohana is using strength or reiatsu to overpower Kenpachi, she even needs to, or that strength wise she's the highest in Soul Society. And don't bring that part where she says that she's the strongest except for Kenpachi, some times people don't mean something literally, something called FIGURATIVE SPEECH. The entire fight is about "Zanjutsu" or the art of killing with a sword, don't take those words out of context. If she could kill Kenpachi a hundred times was because he sucked at sword fighting at first, just look at how easily she could evade and counter attack at the beginning.
Aaaaand back to square one. Why is Kenpachi the strongest? Or second strongest? Why can't he just be the best swordsman? And why, FUCKING WHY must Shunsui be the strongest? I already proved that strength wise he's not impressive at all, and he's never shown off his reiatsu, and that the position of CAPTAIN COMMANDER is a position of leadership and not just strength. The only reason he even beat Starrk was because his combat style and motto is to WIN NO MATTER WHAT, FORGET HONOR AND FIGHT AS DIRTY AS YOU CAN. His Zanpakuto is not even meant for direct combat, doesn't grant any physical boost like say, Renji's does. Stop linking everything with strength, because it's not the only deciding factor for everything.Quote:
Not this shit again. Ichigo is not just brute strength and pure reiatsu. Kay already provided the evidence. He has a shitton of reiatsu and yet he can't cut or make a Garganta path worth a damn. He has immense physical strength (to the point he stopped a released Yammi's direct punch without even trying) and yet he mostly relies on speed, agility, quick thinking and understanding his opponent.Quote:
Maybe, just MAYBE, his new mask had something to do with it?! He could have mowed down every Espada by himself, just like he kicked Byakuya, one of the most powerful and skilled Shinigami in the history of Soul Society, into an emergency room without even trying, or so was the case until his own inexperience with his newly achieved Bankai started to crush his own bones. Ichigo basically downgraded himself two levels to the point that the same people he had surpassed during the previous arc were just embarrassing him left and right.Quote:
Kenpachi took down Yammi by himself without even trying. And it's not like he had to use his strength or high reiatsu for the job, Kay already described how bad Yammi was at fighting. All Kenpachi had to do was get close and cut. Then Yammi entered a second phase while Kenpachi and Byakuya were in the middle of a petty argument (and did not give a damn about the fucking 0 Espada charging at them) and healed himself, which most likely made him stronger, but with the same stupidity it just made the fight harder in the sense that they had to dodge every attack. His overwhelming strength didn't help at all. Actually, Yammi was probably stronger than Aizen in terms of reiatsu, and could grow in strength indefinitely, and yet it was pointless with that level of intelligence.Quote:
David took down a 3m brute with a stone and a strap of leather. Strength is pointless if you can't put it to good use. The most dangerous Espada BY FAR were Barragan, Zommari and Szayel and yet they were far from the strongest physically or reiatsu wise. Strength is not just magically going to win them the fight.Quote:
I know this will be either ignored or forgotten by tomorrow, but maybe at least this will settle it for now.
Last edited by Hakuteiken; April 11, 2013 at 01:35 PM.
Such matters is never permanently settled in the forums & you know that. There are just too many people carrying the same wrong perception of bleach (especially when it comes to ranking the strengths of characters) that needed convincing & you are just one person. Again, I do thank the fact that I actually went against you once (remember? ). It opened my eyes to some certain things about bleach.
I would like to hear anyone using skew logic to argue your way out of this fight: Barragan vs Byakura + Zaraki. Do you think these 2 have any chance of winning at all? After all, Byakura + Zaraki >> big dumb Yammy then Byakura + Zaraki >>> Barragan right? My humble opinion is a big NO, but if you disagree then I would like to hear your argument.
I believe the same can be applied to Stark and Ulq, Byakura + Zaraki are too slow to do anything against these 2 espadas, but some people use their feelings to argue their ways out, their brain cells are wasted for something else.
Last edited by MBVC; April 12, 2013 at 03:48 PM.
I still think, to this day, the primary reason Barragan was #2 and not #1 was to signify his inferior status to Aizen.
Aizen definitely has the characteristic to trolled people, it's in his character to have some fun trolling after all.
I wonder how the fans would react to this http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/b...3565090653.jpg