Done 古語 - Classical Japanese?

[scrubb]

皆、下の古語のような段落がつぐももと言う漫画の第７話にある。鎮守を呼び出そうとする事だ。すっごく分かりにくいので翻訳してがんばっている。しかし自分の能力の限りある。全てはひらがなで書かれてあるので少し漢字に変化してみたのだ。ちょっと手伝ってくれないか？現代の日本語に変化されるさえは十分だと思っている。ドーモ。

Folks, the text below comes from Tsugumomo chapter 07 and appears to be Classical Japanese. It's really hard to understand, but I'm doing my best. However, there's a limit to my knowledge here. Everything is in hiragana, but I've made a stab at figuring out some of the kanji. Can anyone give me a hand? If I can at least get it into modern Japanese I think that will be good enough. Thanks.

かけまくも畏(かしこ)き＝口に出して言うのもおそれ多い
白山姫（しらやまひめ）のお神（おほかみ）のお前を（おほ＝昔の敬称かも？）
拝（おろが）み祭りて＝拝（おが）んで祭ってしまう
畏む（かしこむ）畏む
まおさく＝申すこと。

おほかみの　=　お神の
ひろきあつきみめぐみを　＝　広くて厚くに恵み？
かたじけなみまつり　＝　
たかきたふときみおしへのまにまに　＝　高かくて太くに教えのまにまに？
すめらみことをあふぎまつり
なほきただしきまごころもちて　＝　おき正しい真心を持って
まことのみちに　=　実の道に
たがふことなく
おひもつわざに　＝　お火持つ技に？
はげましめたまひ
いへかどたかく
みすこやかに
よのためひとのために
つくさしめたまへと
かしこみかしこみも
まおす

 

[mikkih]

Here are Kanji for the Jinjahaishi (神社拝詞).

おほかみの　=　大神の
ひろきあつきみめぐみを　＝広き厚き御恵みを
かたじけなみまつり　＝辱み奉り　
たかきたふときみおしへのまにまに　＝　高き尊き神教のまにまに
すめらみことをあふぎまつり　=　天皇を仰ぎ奉り
なほきただしきまごころもちて　＝　直き正しき　真心もちて
まことのみちに　=　誠の道に
たがふことなく　=　違ふことなく
おひもつわざに　=　負ひ持つ業に
はげましめたまひ　=励ましめ給ひ
いへかどたかく　=　家門高く
みすこやかに　=　身健に
よのためひとのために　=　世のため人のために
つくさしめたまへと　=　尽さしめ給へと
かしこみかしこみも　=　恐み恐みも
まおす　=　白す

 

[scrubb]

Wow, thanks. Where did you look that stuff up? Are there any online resources for this kind of thing?

 

[mikkih]

I just google.

Here is the beginning of the txt that I forgot to add.

かけまくもかしこき　＝掛けまくも畏き　＜口に出して申し上げるのも恐れ多い＞
XXXのおほまえををるがみたてまつりて＝　「（白山姫大神？？）Name of the shrine, name of the god」の大前を拝み奉りて
かしこみかしこもまをさく＝　恐み恐も白さく　<恐れ多くも申し上げます>

Although many people don't know these phrases, a prayer says this standard 神社拝詞（Jinjahaishi） when visiting a Shinto shrine. Often time you just change the part of the Name of the shrine, but some shrines use different versions.

 

[scrubb]

Yeah, I was able to find the phrases in the first part on the Goo Jiten, but most of the 2nd part wasn't returning anything useful because of the conjugations.

Moreover, I'm still not sure how to translate most of it. I realize that even most Japanese people can't understand it, but I have something special in mind for it and I don't want to just leave it as is.

 

[suarhnir]

oyos

i've taken classical japanese and still have my textbooks and notes... let me dig that back up and i can translate it for you

sorry, could you give me just the original block of text? i'm getting lost in all of it with the modern japanese you added... bungo/classical japanese is pretty much poetry and all the extra stuff you tried to do only detracts from any possible deeper/double meanings (i've actually done a poem that had a triple meaning >_<)...

 

[scrubb]

Here's the text as is appears in the manga, line breaks and all. mikkih thinks it's a standard shinto chant of some kind. I have no clue, but I am a very curious person. So if you can make sense of it, then I'd love to also see an explanation of the grammar, too, if you want to provide any. (I've noticed, for example, that -き seems to be an adjectival suffix and み- is some kind of prefix, but I don't know what nuance it adds)

For reference, the shrine is called Hakusan (白山) and the deity's name is Kukuri-hime (no kanji given).

かけまくも
かしこき
しらやまひめの
おほかみの
おほまえを
おろがみまつりて
かしこみかしこみ
まおさく

おほかみの
ひろきあつき
みめぐみを
かたじけなみまつり
たかきたふとき
みおしへのまにまに
すめらみことを
あふぎまつり
なほきただしき
まごころもちて
まことのみちに
たがふことなく
おひもつわざに
はげましめたまひ
いへかどたかく
みすこやかに
よのためひとのために
つくさしめたまへと
かしこみかしこみも
まおす

 

[suarhnir]

oyos

so it is a prayer, not much poetry going on but the classical lit grammar is still very much in this.

basic lessons in bungo:

vowels-

は ひ ふ へ ほ
ha/hi/hu/he/ho <- at beginning of word/phrase.
a/i/u/e/o <- anywhere else in the in a word/phrase

あ　+ ふ/う = おう ahu/au -> ou
い　+ ふ/う = ゆう ihu/iu -> yuu
う　+ ふ/う = うう uhu/uu -> uu
え　+ ふ/う = よう ehu/eu -> you
お + ふ/う = おう ohu/ou -> ou

verb conjugation-

*6 inflected forms

mizenkei = imperfective; action yet to happen

renyoukei = continuative; currently in action(if followed after conjunctive particle), action just happened(if followed by auxiliary verbs)

shuushikei = final; end of sentence

rentaikei = attributive; modifies nominal or implied nominal

izenkei = perfective; action already happened/ended

meireikei = imperative; command

*auxiliary verbs = じ、　む、　むず、　まし、　まほし［もうし］、　なむ、　ず、　き、　けり、　けむ、　つ、　ぬ、　たり、　べし、　めり、　らむ、　らし、　なり
*conjunctive particles = ば、　ばや、　なむ、　て、　つつ、　ながら

i'm not gonna list out each verb ending and how it conjugates... that's too much to do ^^;; there's also a whole section on honorifics and humble verbs that is littered in this passage which i won't go into...

anyways, that's the basics.

かけまくも
かしこき
しらやまひめの
おほかみの
おほまえを
おろがみまつりて
かしこみかしこみ
まおさく

awaken! merciful goddess, princess shirayama (alt to hakusan)
i humbly call out to you enshrined master!

おほかみの
ひろきあつき
みめぐみを
かたじけなみまつり
たかきたふとき
みおしへのまにまに
すめらみことを
あふぎまつり
なほきただしき
まごころもちて
まことのみちに
たがふことなく
おひもつわざに
はげましめたまひ
いへかどたかく
みすこやかに
よのためひとのために
つくさしめたまへと
かしこみかしこみも
まおす

blessed goddess, great and kind
i offer my gratitude, o most sacred
i am at your mercy
repectfully, i gaze upon your abode
upright and righteous, and in sincerity
i seek the true path
bestow your favor
serving the people of this world
the many families asking for good health
i humbly pray

this is the best i can come up with... bungo is tough even for native japanese speakers. hope this helps

 

[mikkih]

For reference, the shrine is called Hakusan (白山) and the deity's name is Kukuri-hime (no kanji given).

しらやまひめのおほかみの

Kanji for しらやまひめのおおかみ：白山比咩大神
Kanji for くくりひめのかみ/Kukurihime-no-kami: 菊理媛神

............................................... Summary ..............
Here is the whole transcript in Kanji+hiragana for your Jinjahaishi. You just change the Shirakawahimeno part to other name of a shrine/name of a god when visiting other shrine in general.

かけまくもかしこき　＝掛けまくも畏き
しらやまひめのおほまえををるがみたてまつりて＝白山比咩大神の大前を拝み奉りて
かしこみかしこもまをさく＝　恐み恐も白さく

おほかみの　=　大神の
ひろきあつきみめぐみを　＝広き厚き御恵みを
かたじけなみまつり　＝辱み奉り　
たかきたふときみおしへのまにまに　＝　高き尊き神教のまにまに
すめらみことをあふぎまつり　=　天皇を仰ぎ奉り
なほきただしきまごころもちて　＝　直き正しき　真心もちて
まことのみちに　=　誠の道に
たがふことなく　=　違ふことなく
おひもつわざに　=　負ひ持つ業に
はげましめたまひ　=励ましめ給ひ
いへかどたかく　=　家門高く
みすこやかに　=　身健に
よのためひとのために　=　世のため人のために
つくさしめたまへと　=　尽さしめ給へと
かしこみかしこみも　=　恐み恐みも
まおす　=　白す

 

[suarhnir]

oyos

i haven't really bothered to check for double meanings, but i imagine that prayers/chants are pretty straightforward. below is the piece that was given to me for my final, which i had to translate. we were put on teams to do this, and majority of the kanji you see in the passage was added by my team at certain words we came to a consensus to after going over the piece thoroughly... keep in mind that the line breaks or any punctuation doesn't exactly mean its the end of the phrase. what deteremines the end of a phrase is if there is a shuushikei conjugation. however, sometimes the shuushikei conjugations is same as another conjugation... which is usually the best indicator of a double meaning in play.

土に落ち身は消えて。古事のみを
思ひ草佛の縁を結べか
我とはいさやら雪の。積もろ
思ひはいやまに有明さむみ
夜半の月　峯の雪。汀の氷
踏み分けて　君にぞ迷ふ。道は
迷はな津の國の。野田の川波
高瀬漕ぐ迪の柵ひぢまさり。
岩に堰かる沖つ舩。やる方もなき
我が心浮かめ給へや御僧と。月に
翻へす花衣げに廻雪の神ならん。


Falling to the ground, the body disappears.
Is it tied to the karma of the thinking Buddha upon the grass from ancient times?
I don't know anything. Covered in snow,
A bad feeling grows in my heart.
In the cold dawn, the moon can still be seen.
Pushing through the snow and ice, you wander.
Hoping not to to lose your way to Noda in Tsu province.
At Noda, the ripples on the river are high from the paddling the flat boat.
A barrier blocks the way, dammed up by rocks off shore.
With no place to go by boat, my heart floats. The monk in high spirits with the new month.
The spirit of the snow will probably change to flower robes.

 

[mikkih]

omg... suarhnir... I hope you enjoyed translating a piece of Nou (能). Kyougen (狂言) is one thing but Nou is.....so hard to appreciate....

............................
Just wondering.... and lost in classics....

The snow falls and disappears on the ground just like living creatures die and go back to the soil. ..that part of translation is literal and good as is... I did not understand the way you translated Omoigusa (思ひ草) though.... you seemed to have translated 思ひ草 literally as grass. I am not good at any Japanese literature and classics, but I thought it was more like....古事のみを
思ひ草 as "Only to look back the previous/old events in life to ponder upon. " Ugh.... I even have hard time dealing with modern languages... I should stick with light shonen/shojo mangas.....

 

[suarhnir]

oyos

lol~ its really no wonder that even native speakers have a hard time with this... my team had the 'longest' piece but it took us a whole week to go over this and pick it apart then make as much of a poetic translation ^^;

 

[mikkih]

Yeah, I was able to find the phrases in the first part on the Goo Jiten, but most of the 2nd part wasn't returning anything useful because of the conjugations.

When obtaining txt with Kanji, just focus on Kanji chracters which retain the meanings unlike hiragana, and ignore the tricky conjugated suffix when you are troubled. Your guess without the hiragana will not be too far off from the real meaning of the txt. This is my advise unless you truly enjoy spending whole a lot of time decoding the classics. It may be a good project for the summer break if you are still in school though...

 

[serizawa]

I'm not into Noh theater, but perhaps this page will provide a fair explanation about the "Snow" piece, which you had to translate...

http://junseikai.cool.ne.jp/yuki211.htm (Japanese only)

 

[scrubb]

Wow, a lot happened in this thread since the last time I looked at it.

Suarhnir, I'm just gonna use your translation, if that's OK. I'll make sure you're mentioned for it in the credits. I need to move on to subsequent chapters. Thanks everyone, this was cool to read. If I ever (mostly) get my head around modern Japanese, then maybe I'll tackle classical. Could take a while though. heh