Fantasy Acnologia vs Fairy Heart Zeref

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Axiomus

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Zeref didn't really overpower DF Natsu in an exchange of attacks. What he did was make Natsu exhaust himself, and then poked him afterwards.
Which, fair enough, is a legitimate tactic. But it's a tactic that doesn't really do well against Acnologia because...Well because it's pretty difficult to imagine Acnologia running out of MP. None of Acnologia's feats are exhaustive for him, nobody has managed to exhaust him in combat before, and he can eat his opponent's magic.

Natsu had a few exchanges with Zeref after Lucy rewrote the the book, and this was in base mode. I don't think those exchanges favors Zeref beating up Acno in hand to hand combat. He can use Fairy Heart to reverse all the damage Acnologia deals, but the actual fighting is probably just going to be Acnologia laying a beatdown on Zeref. If they fight for long enough, Acnologia is eventually going to figure out that he has to take Fairy Heart from Zeref to stop the time shenanigans.

Savage Flame Dragon burned space-time, death, and infinite magic while Ignia Natsu only burnt water. SF Natsu is peak PoF Natsu therefore SF Natsu > Ignia Natsu.
Ignia's flames also burned all of Mercphobia's magic power for the foreseeable future, effectively reducing him to a regular human. Zeref noticed that time and his magic were burning a few moments before Natsu's arms started burning. The temperatures required to burn Natsu's arms is right up there with the temperatures required to burn time. Since Ignia's flames could burn Natsu's arms, as well as the MP supply of an Acno-tier, I see little reason to doubt it's ability to replicate what savage flames did.

Also "savage flames" is really just FDK flames boosted with flames of emotions. Flames of emotion involves turning turning emotions into magic power, so "savage flames" is literally a FDK Demolition Fist with a lot of magic power behind it. With what we saw from Ignia's flames, imo this is simply how powerful flames get when you have god-dragon levels MP backing it up.
 

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Zeref didn't really overpower DF Natsu in an exchange of attacks. What he did was make Natsu exhaust himself, and then poked him afterwards.
Which, fair enough, is a legitimate tactic. But it's a tactic that doesn't really do well against Acnologia because...Well because it's pretty difficult to imagine Acnologia running out of MP. None of Acnologia's feats are exhaustive for him, nobody has managed to exhaust him in combat before, and he can eat his opponent's magic.

Natsu had a few exchanges with Zeref after Lucy rewrote the the book, and this was in base mode. I don't think those exchanges favors Zeref beating up Acno in hand to hand combat. He can use Fairy Heart to reverse all the damage Acnologia deals, but the actual fighting is probably just going to be Acnologia laying a beatdown on Zeref. If they fight for long enough, Acnologia is eventually going to figure out that he has to take Fairy Heart from Zeref to stop the time shenanigans.



Ignia's flames also burned all of Mercphobia's magic power for the foreseeable future, effectively reducing him to a regular human. Zeref noticed that time and his magic were burning a few moments before Natsu's arms started burning. The temperatures required to burn Natsu's arms is right up there with the temperatures required to burn time. Since Ignia's flames could burn Natsu's arms, as well as the MP supply of an Acno-tier, I see little reason to doubt it's ability to replicate what savage flames did.

Also "savage flames" is really just FDK flames boosted with flames of emotions. Flames of emotion involves turning turning emotions into magic power, so "savage flames" is literally a FDK Demolition Fist with a lot of magic power behind it. With what we saw from Ignia's flames, imo this is simply how powerful flames get when you have god-dragon levels MP backing it up.
Is it only a matter of time before Acno figures it out? You sure? He's not particularly intelligent, I'm also not sure there is anything Acno can do about it even if he did. Zeref is infinite, Acno's not, if it becomes a battle of endurance Zeref probably wins, if it's a battle of intelligence Zeref probably wins that too tbh.
Natsu was already hyped on PoF when he was beating the shit out of Zeref, to the point where he wasn't only stronger than Dragon Force, but leagues stronger, so base Natsu giving him a beating doesn't mean Acno could, for all we know Natsu would've beaten Acno even worse.

As for hands burning, meh, it's not enough for me to equate IgniaNatsu to Savage Natsu, Mashima gave no statement in the manga linking them and he very often does with these kinds of things. Even if i were to agree though, Natsu beat %50 Dragon Merc, not %50 human Merc, for all we know Natsu would've mopped the floor with %50 Human Merc and been an equal match for %100 human Merc. What percentage increase do you think a dragon transformation has? Double? Triple? Or maybe just a %20 increase or something? I'm not sure myself
 
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Zeref didn't really overpower DF Natsu in an exchange of attacks. What he did was make Natsu exhaust himself, and then poked him afterwards.
Which, fair enough, is a legitimate tactic. But it's a tactic that doesn't really do well against Acnologia because...Well because it's pretty difficult to imagine Acnologia running out of MP. None of Acnologia's feats are exhaustive for him, nobody has managed to exhaust him in combat before, and he can eat his opponent's magic.

Natsu had a few exchanges with Zeref after Lucy rewrote the the book, and this was in base mode. I don't think those exchanges favors Zeref beating up Acno in hand to hand combat. He can use Fairy Heart to reverse all the damage Acnologia deals, but the actual fighting is probably just going to be Acnologia laying a beatdown on Zeref. If they fight for long enough, Acnologia is eventually going to figure out that he has to take Fairy Heart from Zeref to stop the time shenanigans.



Ignia's flames also burned all of Mercphobia's magic power for the foreseeable future, effectively reducing him to a regular human. Zeref noticed that time and his magic were burning a few moments before Natsu's arms started burning. The temperatures required to burn Natsu's arms is right up there with the temperatures required to burn time. Since Ignia's flames could burn Natsu's arms, as well as the MP supply of an Acno-tier, I see little reason to doubt it's ability to replicate what savage flames did.

Also "savage flames" is really just FDK flames boosted with flames of emotions. Flames of emotion involves turning turning emotions into magic power, so "savage flames" is literally a FDK Demolition Fist with a lot of magic power behind it. With what we saw from Ignia's flames, imo this is simply how powerful flames get when you have god-dragon levels MP backing it up.
Merc's powers being gone had more to do with WW then Natsu imo. He just severed the connection. Natsu could only use SF for one attack while he could use Ignia flames for multiple attacks before his arms started to burn completely. I do doubt it bcs Space-Time/Death > Water and Infinite > Finite magic.

Savage Flame is completely different flame than Igneel's. It was stated by Zeref to be a new flame Natsu created through his emotions.
Flames have different attributes despite having a similar function all around, but I agree that the stronger the MP the stronger they burn. Natsu's emotions were at its peak therefore his power was its peak and peak PoF Natsu's power is incalculable while Ignia Natsu is not. We don't know the full power of his emotions as they can be as strong as whatever the writer wants them to be. Beating space-time and death magic back by infinite magic is a whole lot more impressive than beating water magic back finite magic. By feats SF is not only stronger, but hotter than Ignia's flames. Also Natsu was burning up so much his own soul lit up on fire as well which didn't happen with Ignia's flame either.

I can't put Ignia flames on par with SF just bcs his arms were burnt afterwards lol. The difference in feats is too big for me to think SF = Ignia Natsu.
 

Axiomus

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Is it only a matter of time before Acno figures it out? You sure? He's not particularly intelligent, I'm also not sure there is anything Acno can do about it even if he did. Zeref is infinite, Acno's not, if it becomes a battle of endurance Zeref probably wins, if it's a battle of intelligence Zeref probably wins that too tbh.
Natsu was already hyped on PoF when he was beating the shit out of Zeref, to the point where he wasn't only stronger than Dragon Force, but leagues stronger, so base Natsu giving him a beating doesn't mean Acno could, for all we know Natsu would've beaten Acno even worse.

As for hands burning, meh, it's not enough for me to equate IgniaNatsu to Savage Natsu, Mashima gave no statement in the manga linking them and he very often does with these kinds of things. Even if i were to agree though, Natsu beat %50 Dragon Merc, not %50 human Merc, for all we know Natsu would've mopped the floor with %50 Human Merc and been an equal match for %100 human Merc. What percentage increase do you think a dragon transformation has? Double? Triple? Or maybe just a %20 increase or something? I'm not sure myself
You don't have to be particularly intelligent to figure it out. Acnologia just needs to know that Zeref is using magic to reverse time, and decide he's just going to eat whatever Zeref is using to put a stop to it.

Acnologia can just eat Zeref's magic to restore his powers if he ever gets tired. In his dragon form, he could literally try to eat Zeref himself for a power-up.

Natsu hadn't tapped into POF yet when he was exchanging with Zeref in base. Or at least he had yet to remember Makarov's words and gave his speech.

Why not? The hands started burning AFTER Zeref already noted that time and magic was burning. That tells us that the temperatures required to burn Natsu's hands were just as high as the temperatures required to burn time, if not higher. There doesn't need to be a statement linking them.

Dragon Form is far stronger than human form. Not necessarily an increase in magic power, but a great increase in physical strength and durability. Merc was damaged by Skullion in human form. Granted at that moment WW might have been restricting his powers, but it's still a far cry from what the dragon form showed later against all of team Natsu.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Merc's powers being gone had more to do with WW then Natsu imo. He just severed the connection. Natsu could only use SF for one attack while he could use Ignia flames for multiple attacks before his arms started to burn completely. I do doubt it bcs Space-Time/Death > Water and Infinite > Finite magic.

Savage Flame is completely different flame than Igneel's. It was stated by Zeref to be a new flame Natsu created through his emotions.
Flames have different attributes despite having a similar function all around, but I agree that the stronger the MP the stronger they burn. Natsu's emotions were at its peak therefore his power was its peak and peak PoF Natsu's power is incalculable while Ignia Natsu is not. We don't know the full power of his emotions as they can be as strong as whatever the writer wants them to be. Beating space-time and death magic back by infinite magic is a whole lot more impressive than beating water magic back finite magic. By feats SF is not only stronger, but hotter than Ignia's flames. Also Natsu was burning up so much his own soul lit up on fire as well which didn't happen with Ignia's flame either.

I can't put Ignia flames on par with SF just bcs his arms were burnt afterwards lol. The difference in feats is too big for me to think SF = Ignia Natsu.
If White Witch simply took away Mercphobia's powers, and Natsu severed Mercphobia to that connection, then where did Mercphobia's power go? It's not like White Witch has it anymore. White Witch wanted to use Mercphobia's powers to fight the other god dragons. Natsu defeating Mercphobia foiled that plan, which is why she had to go after Aldoron.

Savage flames is literally an FDK Demolition Fist.
Zeref didn't say that Natsu created a new type of fire in the panels you posted. He wondered what Natsu's fire was. At first he thought it was some type of sacred fire, before realizing that it was just flames of emotion. Natsu has had flames of emotion ever since the beginning of the series, way back when he fought Erigor. Look, I don't blame people for missing this because the manga spreads the scene over 2 chapters. Also, Kodansha chose to translate 荒ぶる感情の炎 (aranburu kanjo no hono) as "a blaze of savage emotions", and that made it easy to miss that it was flames of emotions. 感情の炎 (kanjo no hono) is flames of emotion and 荒ぶる(aranburu) means wild, raging, barbaric, or savage. The anime team from crunchyroll uses a more literal translation for the dialogue, and the whole scene makes it obvious that "savage flames" is quite literally....A demolition fist with flames of emotions.

Again, burning Natsu's arms >= Burning space time magic, because Natsu's arms started burning after Zeref already noted that time itself was burning. Seeing Natsu's arm burn what made Zeref realize that Natsu was burning his soul too.
 
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Yes it is, oneshotting exhausted Natsu is infinitely more impressive than oneshotting God Serena, God Serena is nothing. Besides, it's Natsu's own fault that he's exhausted in the first place, he's the one who expended so much of his power attacking FH Zeref, and FH Zeref wasn't fazed by it at all, which in itself is better than anything Human Acno has done.

Natsu was hyped up on guild power, PoF and the One magic all wrapped into one, his PL could have been literally anything at that point. Savage Natsu could be stronger than RoT Acno for all we know, we just assume he's not because we assume Acno is better. Human Acno doesn't have the feats to compete with FH Zeref and his hype is at best on par. Oneshotting God Serena is Jellal level shit, Natsu level shit, Laxus level shit, it's nothing. Even blitzing August is only Gildarts level shit, in fact it's even worse because Acno only blitzed Base August.
even Marco can oneshot a exchausted natsu with no magic it isn’t bro. It isn’t about who fault it is it’s about if the feat is that much impressive and it wasn’t zeref hasn’t done this the whole series oneshot people that are out of magic/not willing to fight him. acno is tank base natsu attacks eas POF human acno solo humans and dragons for centuries. Base zeref wasn’t even fazed by DF natsu. In fact he believed that IG powered natsu>DF natsu. Natsu tanked FH zeref attack like it was nothing and was able to overwhelm him.

nope base natsu with POF isn’t stronger than the whole continent magic power +pof + natsu and the 6DS plus the 7DS natsu stop it bro. acno oneshotting GS speed btlizing base august is still better than oneshot base natsu with no magic left.
 

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You don't have to be particularly intelligent to figure it out. Acnologia just needs to know that Zeref is using magic to reverse time, and decide he's just going to eat whatever Zeref is using to put a stop to it.

Acnologia can just eat Zeref's magic to restore his powers if he ever gets tired. In his dragon form, he could literally try to eat Zeref himself for a power-up.

Natsu hadn't tapped into POF yet when he was exchanging with Zeref in base. Or at least he had yet to remember Makarov's words and gave his speech.

Why not? The hands started burning AFTER Zeref already noted that time and magic was burning. That tells us that the temperatures required to burn Natsu's hands were just as high as the temperatures required to burn time, if not higher. There doesn't need to be a statement linking them.

Dragon Form is far stronger than human form. Not necessarily an increase in magic power, but a great increase in physical strength and durability. Merc was damaged by Skullion in human form. Granted at that moment WW might have been restricting his powers, but it's still a far cry from what the dragon form showed later against all of team Natsu.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



If White Witch simply took away Mercphobia's powers, and Natsu severed Mercphobia to that connection, then where did Mercphobia's power go? It's not like White Witch has it anymore. White Witch wanted to use Mercphobia's powers to fight the other god dragons. Natsu defeating Mercphobia foiled that plan, which is why she had to go after Aldoron.

Savage flames is literally an FDK Demolition Fist.
Zeref didn't say that Natsu created a new type of fire in the panels you posted. He wondered what Natsu's fire was. At first he thought it was some type of sacred fire, before realizing that it was just flames of emotion. Natsu has had flames of emotion ever since the beginning of the series, way back when he fought Erigor. Look, I don't blame people for missing this because the manga spreads the scene over 2 chapters. Also, Kodansha chose to translate 荒ぶる感情の炎 (aranburu kanjo no hono) as "a blaze of savage emotions", and that made it easy to miss that it was flames of emotions. 感情の炎 (kanjo no hono) is flames of emotion and 荒ぶる(aranburu) means wild, raging, barbaric, or savage. The anime team from crunchyroll uses a more literal translation for the dialogue, and the whole scene makes it obvious that "savage flames" is quite literally....A demolition fist with flames of emotions.

Again, burning Natsu's arms >= Burning space time magic, because Natsu's arms started burning after Zeref already noted that time itself was burning. Seeing Natsu's arm burn what made Zeref realize that Natsu was burning his soul too.
Reversing time comes from Zeref, not FH, Zeref is just using FH to power himself. Even if he figures something out, Acno doesn't even know what FH is, let alone how to deal with it.

I'm not saying Dragon Acno loses, I'm saying human Acno loses. As for the eating magic, it's much easier for Zeref to get around that than it is for Acno to get around FH, and Zeref is much more likely to figure it out.

Sure, and that "Base" Natsu was stronger than Dragon Force, his PL could be literally anything at that point, he could have been stronger than RoT Dragon Acno.

You logic for it makes sense, but it could just as easily be wrong, could have just been Natsu "incinerating his soul" that burnt his hands, rather than the heat being too much. Too much time has passed since Savage Flames chapter and Merc's chapter, Mashima generally makes statements linking stuff like that, he's not particularly subtle in fights.

If that's the case I don't see IgniaNatsu being equal to Savage Natsu as an argument against FH Zeref beating Acno. Natsu beat Dragon Merc, he physically overpowered him and overpowered his roar. Defeating %100 Human Merc seems reasonable to me if a dragon form is as amazing as you say.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

even Marco can oneshot a exchausted natsu with no magic it isn’t bro. It isn’t about who fault it is it’s about if the feat is that much impressive and it wasn’t zeref hasn’t done this the whole series oneshot people that are out of magic/not willing to fight him. acno is tank base natsu attacks eas POF human acno solo humans and dragons for centuries. Base zeref wasn’t even fazed by DF natsu. In fact he believed that IG powered natsu>DF natsu. Natsu tanked FH zeref attack like it was nothing and was able to overwhelm him.

nope base natsu with POF isn’t stronger than the whole continent magic power +pof + natsu and the 6DS plus the 7DS natsu stop it bro. acno oneshotting GS speed btlizing base august is still better than oneshot base natsu with no magic left.
No he can't, Natsu would literally oneshot Marco in his sleep, like he would roll over and accidently hit Marco and Marco would be done.
Sure it is, low diffing Dragon Force Natsu is simply better than oneshotting God Serena or anything else Acno has done.
It doesn't matter if Acno or Zeref think DF Natsu is nothing, I'm not saying DF Natsu beats them, I'm saying beating DF Natsu is still better than beating God Serena, Zerefs feats are simply better.

Says who? It's stronger than literally infinite magic,
 

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Reversing time comes from Zeref, not FH, Zeref is just using FH to power himself. Even if he figures something out, Acno doesn't even know what FH is, let alone how to deal with it.

I'm not saying Dragon Acno loses, I'm saying human Acno loses. As for the eating magic, it's much easier for Zeref to get around that than it is for Acno to get around FH, and Zeref is much more likely to figure it out.

Sure, and that "Base" Natsu was stronger than Dragon Force, his PL could be literally anything at that point, he could have been stronger than RoT Dragon Acno.

You logic for it makes sense, but it could just as easily be wrong, could have just been Natsu "incinerating his soul" that burnt his hands, rather than the heat being too much. Too much time has passed since Savage Flames chapter and Merc's chapter, Mashima generally makes statements linking stuff like that, he's not particularly subtle in fights.

If that's the case I don't see IgniaNatsu being equal to Savage Natsu as an argument against FH Zeref beating Acno. Natsu beat Dragon Merc, he physically overpowered him and overpowered his roar. Defeating %100 Human Merc seems reasonable to me if a dragon form is as amazing as you say.
--- Double Post Merged, ---


No he can't, Natsu would literally oneshot Marco in his sleep, like he would roll over and accidently hit Marco and Marco would be done.
Sure it is, low diffing Dragon Force Natsu is simply better than oneshotting God Serena or anything else Acno has done.
It doesn't matter if Acno or Zeref think DF Natsu is nothing, I'm not saying DF Natsu beats them, I'm saying beating DF Natsu is still better than beating God Serena, Zerefs feats are simply better.

Says who? It's stronger than literally infinite magic,
exchausted natsu with no magic is useless. Any1 that has magic power can oneshot the he was as useless as chelia. He wasn’t in DF Anymore after that attack nice try bro. Again what FH zeref tank human acno is tanking too. What’s zeref offense feats when base natsu(was brought back with MP) he was overwhelming him and even in fact tanked his attacks. acno oneshot GS speedblitz 2 spriggan(including the strongest spriggan)>exchausted base natsu who didn’t have magic at all that isn’t up to be debate.
Ya and it took base natsu to down zeref.
Natsu POF isn’t stronger than the whole continent + 6DS + natsu 7DS on top with POF
 
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Reversing time comes from Zeref, not FH, Zeref is just using FH to power himself. Even if he figures something out, Acno doesn't even know what FH is, let alone how to deal with it.

I'm not saying Dragon Acno loses, I'm saying human Acno loses. As for the eating magic, it's much easier for Zeref to get around that than it is for Acno to get around FH, and Zeref is much more likely to figure it out.

Sure, and that "Base" Natsu was stronger than Dragon Force, his PL could be literally anything at that point, he could have been stronger than RoT Dragon Acno.

You logic for it makes sense, but it could just as easily be wrong, could have just been Natsu "incinerating his soul" that burnt his hands, rather than the heat being too much. Too much time has passed since Savage Flames chapter and Merc's chapter, Mashima generally makes statements linking stuff like that, he's not particularly subtle in fights.

If that's the case I don't see IgniaNatsu being equal to Savage Natsu as an argument against FH Zeref beating Acno. Natsu beat Dragon Merc, he physically overpowered him and overpowered his roar. Defeating %100 Human Merc seems reasonable to me if a dragon form is as amazing as you say.
Reversing time came from Fairy Heart. Zeref explained how his control over space and time was Fairy Heart's power.

It's really as simple as Acnologia deciding that he wants to eat Zeref's magic.

You mean incinerating the soul caused Natsu's hands to burn? I don't see why it would. I just figured that the flames burned Natsu's soul for the same reason it burned Zeref's magic and Natsu's arms. That being it was really hot.

Ignia's flames allowed Natsu to physically overpower Mercphobia's dragon form, so it's conceivable that he would be physically stronger than Mercphobia's human form. But keep in mind that this physical strength came from Ignia's flames triggering Dragon Force. This is why I say Ignia's flames should actually be stronger than savage flames.
 

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Reversing time came from Fairy Heart. Zeref explained how his control over space and time was Fairy Heart's power.

It's really as simple as Acnologia deciding that he wants to eat Zeref's magic.

You mean incinerating the soul caused Natsu's hands to burn? I don't see why it would. I just figured that the flames burned Natsu's soul for the same reason it burned Zeref's magic and Natsu's arms. That being it was really hot.

Ignia's flames allowed Natsu to physically overpower Mercphobia's dragon form, so it's conceivable that he would be physically stronger than Mercphobia's human form. But keep in mind that this physical strength came from Ignia's flames triggering Dragon Force. This is why I say Ignia's flames should actually be stronger than savage flames.
So FT wouldve gotten time powers if they used it? Doesn't seem likely to me. FH gives Zeref control over time because Zeref can already do it to a limited extent, now he just has total control. But either way, whether FH is responsible or not, what can Acno do? He doesn't even know what FH is, from his perspective Zeref is just stronger.

All well and good until Zeref decides not to attack with magic once he sees Acno eat it, or just land hits well away from his mouth.

The way it seemed to me is that Natsu incinerating his soul was actually a part of what was powering flames, rather than a result of the heat. That aside, burnt up hands was never really established as a benchmark for the heat of Natsu's flames.

Triggering Dragon Force doesn't mean anything, lots of things trigger Dragon Force, lot's of things don't. It also doesn't mean he is stronger, non DF power ups are very often as strong or stronger than DF power ups.
exchausted natsu with no magic is useless. Any1 that has magic power can oneshot the he was as useless as chelia. He wasn’t in DF Anymore after that attack nice try bro. Again what FH zeref tank human acno is tanking too. What’s zeref offense feats when base natsu(was brought back with MP) he was overwhelming him and even in fact tanked his attacks. acno oneshot GS speedblitz 2 spriggan(including the strongest spriggan)>exchausted base natsu who didn’t have magic at all that isn’t up to be debate.
Ya and it took base natsu to down zeref.
Natsu POF isn’t stronger than the whole continent + 6DS + natsu 7DS on top with POF
I don't need to try, DF Natsu attacked Zeref, Zeref attack him back.... and killed him. It's a low diff win for Zeref any way you slice it.
Like I said, oneshotting God Serena is nothing, as is blitzing him. I agree, this isn't up for debate, beating DF Natsu is an undeniably superior feat.

Why not? He's stronger than literally infinite magic. The continents magic isn't infinite.
 

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Ah yes, the tactical genius that sent Dragon Slayers to fight on a flying boat. Or the other genius who was goaded to fight Natsu instead of just time jumping 🤦🏾‍♂️😂
You have no idea how much this angered me back in the days lmao. Might have punched my walls after that shit chapter IIRC. Like, just walk into the portal retard, smh
 

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So FT wouldve gotten time powers if they used it? Doesn't seem likely to me. FH gives Zeref control over time because Zeref can already do it to a limited extent, now he just has total control. But either way, whether FH is responsible or not, what can Acno do? He doesn't even know what FH is, from his perspective Zeref is just stronger.

All well and good until Zeref decides not to attack with magic once he sees Acno eat it, or just land hits well away from his mouth.

The way it seemed to me is that Natsu incinerating his soul was actually a part of what was powering flames, rather than a result of the heat. That aside, burnt up hands was never really established as a benchmark for the heat of Natsu's flames.

Triggering Dragon Force doesn't mean anything, lots of things trigger Dragon Force, lot's of things don't. It also doesn't mean he is stronger, non DF power ups are very often as strong or stronger than DF power ups.
Why not? Either way, he can't reverse time without FH.

Acnologia doesn't have to know what FH is. He just has decide to eat Zeref's magic. I very much doubt Acnologia knew exactly what was going on when he was in the time rift. He just ate the magic and started swinging. If Zeref isn't attacking with magic, then he's just going to get beat up by Acnologia in h2h.

You mean Natsu burning his soul was what made the flames so hot? Okay. Either way, Natsu's hands only started burning after Zeref noted that time was burning. That proves the temperatures required to burn Natsu are just as hot as the temperatures required to burn time.

Dragon Force increases physical strength by partially transforming the body. Ignia's flames were as hot as "savage flames", plus a boost in physical strength with Dragon Force.

Flames of Emotions boosted Natsu's mp and allowed him to generate what I would argue to be god-dragon level flames, but it didn't dramatically increase his physical strength. If "savage flames" Natsu had to fight a God Dragon, he might be able to burn their magic with his flames.....But he'd get smacked around trading blows with their dragon forms. Ignia's flames had enough power to generate said god dragon level flames, as well as boost Natsu's physical strength to god dragon levels through dragon force. This version of Natsu can pick up Irene by the tail and use her body to beat August over the head without using any flames at all....Something which I don't think any other version of Natsu can do.
 
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Why not? Either way, he can't reverse time without FH.
Even freaking Ultear can, you think the greatest wizard cant? When he already had some type of timestop magic and literally created time gates. FH is just source of magic which allow you to do anything you know and can do. If you dont know how to do shit - you wont be able to do it even with infinite powerup.

Funny thing - Ultear used time reversing magic when blocked Zeref's death waves xd
 

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Even freaking Ultear can, you think the greatest wizard cant? When he already had some type of timestop magic and literally created time gates. FH is just source of magic which allow you to do anything you know and can do. If you dont know how to do shit - you wont be able to do it even with infinite powerup.

Funny thing - Ultear used time reversing magic when blocked Zeref's death waves xd
I dont think Zeref can do anything that Ultear can do involving time tbh.

Again, Zeref said it himself that what he did was Fairy Hearts power.

 

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Why not? Either way, he can't reverse time without FH.

Acnologia doesn't have to know what FH is. He just has decide to eat Zeref's magic. I very much doubt Acnologia knew exactly what was going on when he was in the time rift. He just ate the magic and started swinging. If Zeref isn't attacking with magic, then he's just going to get beat up by Acnologia in h2h.

You mean Natsu burning his soul was what made the flames so hot? Okay. Either way, Natsu's hands only started burning after Zeref noted that time was burning. That proves the temperatures required to burn Natsu are just as hot as the temperatures required to burn time.

Dragon Force increases physical strength by partially transforming the body. Ignia's flames were as hot as "savage flames", plus a boost in physical strength with Dragon Force.

Flames of Emotions boosted Natsu's mp and allowed him to generate what I would argue to be god-dragon level flames, but it didn't dramatically increase his physical strength. If "savage flames" Natsu had to fight a God Dragon, he might be able to burn their magic with his flames.....But he'd get smacked around trading blows with their dragon forms. Ignia's flames had enough power to generate said god dragon level flames, as well as boost Natsu's physical strength to god dragon levels through dragon force. This version of Natsu can pick up Irene by the tail and use her body to beat August over the head without using any flames at all....Something which I don't think any other version of Natsu can do.
Sure, but as far as I've seen Acno doesn't have the means to separate it from him.

Eating Zeref's magic doesn't really do anything, it saves him from having to tank the attack sure, gives him a bit of a magic boost yeah, but eventually Zeref is gonna realize that all he has to do is stop attacking with magic. As for getting beat up in h2h, I haven't seen anything from Human Acno that suggests he'd beat Zeref h2h. I've seen him get trolled by Eileen and i've seen him get trolled by Jellal and I consider both bellow DF Natsu, let alone Savage Natsu. Besides, even if Zeref is on the losing end, he wont tire, Acno will.

Something like that.
Not really, power could have nothing to do with it. Natsu's hands weren't damaged from 7 DS mode. And even if burnt hands means something, it doesn't give any idea about the specifics. For example, sure, maybe if his fire burns hot enough it will burn Natsu's hands, but what if you burn even hotter? Savage Natsu may have reached the hand burning threshold and skyrocketed beyond it when he beat Zeref, while IgniaNatsu may have only just barely touched the hand burning threshold. Both attacks burning Natsu's hands don't mean they're equal in power.

As for physical strength, we don't know that IgniaNatsu is physically stronger. His DF transformation is part of that whole powerup, and most powerups offer a physical strength boost regardless of if you have dragon force or not
 

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I dont think Zeref can do anything that Ultear can do involving time tbh.

Again, Zeref said it himself that what he did was Fairy Hearts power.
And then he said "it is a limitless eternal power" which basically means he has enough power to do anything. If you want to believ Zeref didnt know how to use time magic without it (when he already did) - do so. But it would mean that FH Zefer is just the same as Ultear in term of power and skills.
 

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Sure, but as far as I've seen Acno doesn't have the means to separate it from him.

Eating Zeref's magic doesn't really do anything, it saves him from having to tank the attack sure, gives him a bit of a magic boost yeah, but eventually Zeref is gonna realize that all he has to do is stop attacking with magic. As for getting beat up in h2h, I haven't seen anything from Human Acno that suggests he'd beat Zeref h2h. I've seen him get trolled by Eileen and i've seen him get trolled by Jellal and I consider both bellow DF Natsu, let alone Savage Natsu. Besides, even if Zeref is on the losing end, he wont tire, Acno will.

Something like that.
Not really, power could have nothing to do with it. Natsu's hands weren't damaged from 7 DS mode. And even if burnt hands means something, it doesn't give any idea about the specifics. For example, sure, maybe if his fire burns hot enough it will burn Natsu's hands, but what if you burn even hotter? Savage Natsu may have reached the hand burning threshold and skyrocketed beyond it when he beat Zeref, while IgniaNatsu may have only just barely touched the hand burning threshold. Both attacks burning Natsu's hands don't mean they're equal in power.

As for physical strength, we don't know that IgniaNatsu is physically stronger. His DF transformation is part of that whole powerup, and most powerups off a physical strength boost regardless of if you have dragon force or not
He could just eat it like he was eating Jellal's magic. Or just swallow him whole in his dragon form if it comes down to it.

Zeref didn't really match DF Natsu in h2h. He can just tire DF Natsu via time reversal, which again isnt really going to get him anywhere against Acnologia. In so far as Zeref's actual H2H performance, he was basically on base Natsu's level. Acnologia can trash the dragon slayers in a 7v1 while holding back, and move faster than August can react to.

Why would power have nothing to do with it? 7DS mode wasn't pure fire either. It was a bunch of different elements. So it may not have necessarily been very hot. Again, Zeref noted that his magic and time itself was burning moments before Natsu's arms started to burn. Simply put, there was a point of time where the fire wasn't hot enough to burn Natsu's arms, but was still hot enough to burn Zeref's magic. This tells us that burning Natsu's arms is greater or equal than burning Zeref's magic. It's possible that flames of emotions continued to boost Natsu's flames even hotter after Natsu's arms started to burn.....But we're just guessing at this point.

We do know what Natsu with Ignias flames is physically stronger because he has better feats of physical strength. His best feats of physical strength were in that form. I didn't say that you must have dragon force to get a boost in physical strength.... but what makes you think Natsu had Acnologia-tier physical strength when he was fighting Zeref?

And then he said "it is a limitless eternal power" which basically means he has enough power to do anything. If you want to believ Zeref didnt know how to use time magic without it (when he already did) - do so. But it would mean that FH Zefer is just the same as Ultear in term of power and skills.
It's really not that complicated. When Natsu noted that it was like nothing ever happened after Zeref reversed time, Zeref directly responded that it was Fairy Heart's power. If Zeref could have reversed time in this fashion before obtaining Fairy Heart, then he would have done so against Ultear when they fought. Not like Ultear can reverse time easily either. It literally turns her into a granny.

This is a really odd argument tbh. Zeref stopping time has more in common with Dimaria than Ultear. We don't say Dimaria can do everything Ultear can regarding time.
 
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He could just eat it like he was eating Jellal's magic. Or just swallow him whole in his dragon form if it comes down to it.

Zeref didn't really match DF Natsu in h2h. He can just tire DF Natsu via time reversal, which again isnt really going to get him anywhere against Acnologia. In so far as Zeref's actual H2H performance, he was basically on base Natsu's level. Acnologia can trash the dragon slayers in a 7v1 while holding back, and move faster than August can react to.

Why would power have nothing to do with it? 7DS mode wasn't pure fire either. It was a bunch of different elements. So it may not have necessarily been very hot. Again, Zeref noted that his magic and time itself was burning moments before Natsu's arms started to burn. Simply put, there was a point of time where the fire wasn't hot enough to burn Natsu's arms, but was still hot enough to burn Zeref's magic. This tells us that burning Natsu's arms is greater or equal than burning Zeref's magic. It's possible that flames of emotions continued to boost Natsu's flames even hotter after Natsu's arms started to burn.....But we're just guessing at this point.

We do know what Natsu with Ignias flames is physically stronger because he has better feats of physical strength. His best feats of physical strength were in that form. I didn't say that you must have dragon force to get a boost in physical strength.... but what makes you think Natsu had Acnologia-tier physical strength when he was fighting Zeref?



It's really not that complicated. When Natsu noted that it was like nothing ever happened after Zeref reversed time, Zeref directly responded that it was Fairy Heart's power. If Zeref could have reversed time in this fashion before obtaining Fairy Heart, then he would have done so against Ultear when they fought. Not like Ultear can reverse time easily either. It literally turns her into a granny.

This is a really odd argument tbh. Zeref stopping time has more in common with Dimaria than Ultear. We don't say Dimaria can do everything Ultear can regarding time.
Acno was eating Meteor and even then Jellal was still making progress pushing him. Like I said, i'm talking human Acno, not dragon Acno.

He matched Savage Natsu in h2h, who is leagues above DF Natsu.
RoT Acno matched the 7 Dragon Slayers, not Human Acno. As for moving faster than August, Gildarts tier, so meh.

No, we were guessing from the beginning, both fires burning their hands doesn't equate to both fires being equal in strength, one fire could be several times the strength of the other and both still burn the hands. Oh and Natsu's hands weren't burnt against Merc til after he won the fight and was talking about destroying the world, so again, it doesn't really suggest Human Acno could beat Zeref.

No, he doesn't. I've said it a thousand times before, size doesn't mean anything. Ikusatsunagi has better feats of strength just by picking up his sword than Natsu does with Demolition Fist, Natsu still punches harder because Natsu can damage tougher opponents.
As for what makes me think Natsu had Acno tier strength when fighting FH Zeref, mostly because FH Zeref is Acno tier, or at least was portrayed as such and not human Acno, Dragon Acno. If Acno had feats suggesting he was better than FH Zeref then I'm willing to hear them, but he doesn't really, his human feats are meh, his dragon feats ain't that great either. The only thing Acno has going for him is the fact that Natsu beat Zeref's ass, and Natsu's strength could have been literally anything at that point.
 

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So FT wouldve gotten time powers if they used it? Doesn't seem likely to me. FH gives Zeref control over time because Zeref can already do it to a limited extent, now he just has total control. But either way, whether FH is responsible or not, what can Acno do? He doesn't even know what FH is, from his perspective Zeref is just stronger.

All well and good until Zeref decides not to attack with magic once he sees Acno eat it, or just land hits well away from his mouth.

The way it seemed to me is that Natsu incinerating his soul was actually a part of what was powering flames, rather than a result of the heat. That aside, burnt up hands was never really established as a benchmark for the heat of Natsu's flames.

Triggering Dragon Force doesn't mean anything, lots of things trigger Dragon Force, lot's of things don't. It also doesn't mean he is stronger, non DF power ups are very often as strong or stronger than DF power ups.

I don't need to try, DF Natsu attacked Zeref, Zeref attack him back.... and killed him. It's a low diff win for Zeref any way you slice it.
Like I said, oneshotting God Serena is nothing, as is blitzing him. I agree, this isn't up for debate, beating DF Natsu is an undeniably superior feat.

Why not? He's stronger than literally infinite magic. The continents magic isn't infinite.
Yep he attacked him with all his magic was exchausted no more magic power zeref tanked it (something acno can do also) oneshotted a exchausted base natsu I mean @Axiomus just showed u the panels that he wasn’t in DF.

He wasn’t in DF look at the panel u 🧢 bro

Exactly natsu doesn’t have infinite magic and was able to down zeref ur the same guy that said MP doesn’t matter in FT? Switching up now?

doesn’t matter u beleive overall acno>zeref so if infinite magic can’t beat base natsu then it isn’t beating Whole continent + 6DS + natsu 7DS manga showed it those are facts
 
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Acno was eating Meteor and even then Jellal was still making progress pushing him. Like I said, i'm talking human Acno, not dragon Acno.

He matched Savage Natsu in h2h, who is leagues above DF Natsu.
RoT Acno matched the 7 Dragon Slayers, not Human Acno. As for moving faster than August, Gildarts tier, so meh.

No, we were guessing from the beginning, both fires burning their hands doesn't equate to both fires being equal in strength, one fire could be several times the strength of the other and both still burn the hands. Oh and Natsu's hands weren't burnt against Merc til after he won the fight and was talking about destroying the world, so again, it doesn't really suggest Human Acno could beat Zeref.

No, he doesn't. I've said it a thousand times before, size doesn't mean anything. Ikusatsunagi has better feats of strength just by picking up his sword than Natsu does with Demolition Fist, Natsu still punches harder because Natsu can damage tougher opponents.
As for what makes me think Natsu had Acno tier strength when fighting FH Zeref, mostly because FH Zeref is Acno tier, or at least was portrayed as such and not human Acno, Dragon Acno. If Acno had feats suggesting he was better than FH Zeref then I'm willing to hear them, but he doesn't really, his human feats are meh, his dragon feats ain't that great either. The only thing Acno has going for him is the fact that Natsu beat Zeref's ass, and Natsu's strength could have been literally anything at that point.
This was mostly in response to Zeref hitting Acnologia away from the mouth. Meteor hit Jellal on the body, and Acnologia just kinda sucked the magic up and ate it. In any case, Zeref really isn't going to get anywhere hitting Zeref without magic either.

He matched base Natsu in H2H. He only had 1 exchange against "savage flames", which he lost. Judging from what we can see here, if Natsu hadn't used up all his power in DF he probably could have traded with Zeref for quite a while. At least in terms of h2h exchanges.

On the other hand, if Acnologia was actually serious, base Natsu would have never even been able to perceive Acnologia's attacks. It would have been like when he faced Aldoron. Acnologia himself has the ability to move at speeds that August cannot react to. Human Acnologia ripped apart dragons, and one of the dragons he ripped apart poked a hole in Natsu when they fought.

Burning Natsu's hands doesn't mean both flames are equal in strength. However, burning Natsu's hands does mean it's good enough to burn Zeref's time magic, because again the burning of the hands came after the burning of Zeref's magic. It's the burning of Zeref's time magic that I'm particularly concerned about, because it's what counters his ability to undo the damage of Natsu's attacks. It's what allowed Natsu to win. Also Natsu not burning his hands until after he calmed down is yet another reason why I believe Ignia's flames was stronger than "savage flames". I believe this is the benefit of dragon force at work. The dragon scales and tougher physiology allows Natsu to handle flames on this level without burning himself.

I'm not talking about size. The fact that Natsu was able to overpower a god-dragon in dragon form is what makes this the most impressive version of Natsu in terms of physical strength. Again, I'm not convinced that Zeref's physical strength changed all that much from obtaining Fairy Heart. Nor do I think that flames of emotions boosted Natsu's physical strength by all that much.
 

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This was mostly in response to Zeref hitting Acnologia away from the mouth. Meteor hit Jellal on the body, and Acnologia just kinda sucked the magic up and ate it. In any case, Zeref really isn't going to get anywhere hitting Zeref without magic either.

He matched base Natsu in H2H. He only had 1 exchange against "savage flames", which he lost. Judging from what we can see here, if Natsu hadn't used up all his power in DF he probably could have traded with Zeref for quite a while. At least in terms of h2h exchanges.

On the other hand, if Acnologia was actually serious, base Natsu would have never even been able to perceive Acnologia's attacks. It would have been like when he faced Aldoron. Acnologia himself has the ability to move at speeds that August cannot react to. Human Acnologia ripped apart dragons, and one of the dragons he ripped apart poked a hole in Natsu when they fought.

Burning Natsu's hands doesn't mean both flames are equal in strength. However, burning Natsu's hands does mean it's good enough to burn Zeref's time magic, because again the burning of the hands came after the burning of Zeref's magic. It's the burning of Zeref's time magic that I'm particularly concerned about, because it's what counters his ability to undo the damage of Natsu's attacks. It's what allowed Natsu to win. Also Natsu not burning his hands until after he calmed down is yet another reason why I believe Ignia's flames was stronger than "savage flames". I believe this is the benefit of dragon force at work. The dragon scales and tougher physiology allows Natsu to handle flames on this level without burning himself.

I'm not talking about size. The fact that Natsu was able to overpower a god-dragon in dragon form is what makes this the most impressive version of Natsu in terms of physical strength. Again, I'm not convinced that Zeref's physical strength changed all that much from obtaining Fairy Heart. Nor do I think that flames of emotions boosted Natsu's physical strength by all that much.
True, but Zeref blasting him continuously would be pretty dumb, a quick punch to the gut or something would be the strategy, maybe a blast to the back of the head. Fairy Law would also probably work, given Acno couldn't eat Fairy Sphere. Attacking with Curse might also be a good idea, though I don't know how well it mixes with magic. All that aside, I dont see why Zeref wouldnt get anywhere hitting Acno with his fists.

I call that version of Base Natsu, Savage Natsu, seeing as he's leagues above any incarnation of Natsu bar 7DS Natsu. So Acno or Aldaron being able to trash base Natsu doesn't really mean anything to me, because FH Zeref didn't fight that Base Natsu. His portrayal as Acno's potential equal still stands relatively strong, certainly enough so that he would be able to defeat Acno's weaker form.

Burning Zeref's magic isn't good enough, Natsu needs to go the full 9 yards or else Zeref will just be the same as before, infinite and immortal. You can't have less power than everything Savage Natsu had and beat Zeref, you can't take him in a battle of attrition, he's infinite.
As for Ignia Natsu's hands, alternatively, it could simply be that no attack IgniaNatsu landed on Merc had "burning hands" power behind it, because his hands weren't burning at the time. Natsu was clearly amping up when he went "i'll burn everything" and his scales went away the same time his flames did, so protection wouldn't really apply, because scaleless Natsu didn't touch the flames.

Sure, that would be impressive... unless Zeref is stronger than that dragon god(which by all accounts he should be), in which case overpowering Zeref is the better feat. Physical strength comes from magic power, you know that.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Yep he attacked him with all his magic was exchausted no more magic power zeref tanked it (something acno can do also) oneshotted a exchausted base natsu I mean @Axiomus just showed u the panels that he wasn’t in DF.

He wasn’t in DF look at the panel u 🧢 bro

Exactly natsu doesn’t have infinite magic and was able to down zeref ur the same guy that said MP doesn’t matter in FT? Switching up now?

doesn’t matter u beleive overall acno>zeref so if infinite magic can’t beat base natsu then it isn’t beating Whole continent + 6DS + natsu 7DS manga showed it those are facts
Yep, that's exactly what he did, and it was a low diff fight.

Sure, Natsu just had the power of love. Love>Acno. As for MP not mattering, what about it? Zeref is Acno's equal because of statements and because Acno doesn't have any drastically better feats, not because his MP is infinite.

But why would the entire continent matter when Zeref has infinite magic? He has more magic than the continent. Besides, that's RoT Acno, not human Acno. Zeref doesn't need continental power to beat Human Acno.
 
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