Shounen Bakuman by Ohba Tsugumi and Obata Takeshi

Maxy Barnard

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

my personal preference is someone who's witty and charming over anything, and i'm sure i'm not the only one, so most guys may just be a jaded generalisation...

but arrogance isn't always bad as a counterpoint, and i'm sure bakuman will reflect that in the future
 

magicbulletgirl

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

To me, it sounds more like a biased remark from a girl who's reading a manga intended for guys to read, while it's not much different for girls either. Sorry, no offense intended, but I really think so.
I am going offense to this because what you're basically saying is because I'm a girl first I have no business reading a manga meant for guys or making an opinion on it.
I'm 100% sure if I were a guy instead you wouldn't feel like this and much more open to discussion.

Thank you for proving my point. And now I am really out so please don't reply to this.
 

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

When I hear or read guys saying this I am just as offended as if it were told directly to me because I think of the way I think of myself.
Should I feel offended each time any female says "Guys are just brainless monkeys", "They only have Football, Cars and Boobs in they're heads. There's no space for more", "A guy ain't a guy if he likes girly things", etc etc?

I'm not a manly man, neither do I say I am. Actually, I've been mistaken for a girl often enough already (no joke!). And I don't find it offensive that some people tell me I ain't manly. But maybe I'm just desensitized to "insults" because I've been made the laughing stock about 'sexist' stuff for long enough in my life...

I don't know how it is for you, but for me the first step to squashing stereotypes is to actively live the non-stereotypical life. A stereotype became a stereotype because for a long time it's just been like that. And the generation who has been raised with the whole "mother as housewife-only" mentality and has lived by it for very long is not even dead yet.

Until they're at least dead for 30-40 years I doubt you can get rid of all the sexist prejudices. Those people have been raised with them, lived by them, got them ingrained for all those years. You can't change where an old oak stands easily.

Were you not a little offended when Takagi said about Azuki "Well like she's naturally absorbed the idea that it's feminine to be graceful and well mannered and that girls should be serious and not too smart. She was born with the ability to sense that being too smart isn't cute."...?
That stuff... I wonder if you not just overreact to it?
We got exactly one person in the manga who stated that opinion. Shujin.
Furthermore, I think "being too smart" in this case means more like "being a smartass" and "never wanting others opinions/help". I'd like to think I speak for the majority of people when I say that it's easier to get along with people who might ask me for help some time and whom I can ask for help on something else. In how far it is "cute" to oneself is another question. Remember that one person said he thought it is cuter. "Being graceful and well-mannered" being attributed to femininity ain't wrong either. Even in non-sexist context you can put these into a relation.

Until now we got the opinion of a single person of whom there's no knowledge about his parents regards to sexist behavior.

But, you are already saying it's the authors opinion. Hurray for fast-track decisions.

He saw her first as a girl than a person.
Azuki and every girl in Sugumi's and Takeshi's mangas should be treated as people and they're not.
They are, but some teenager who happens to be a main-char wants to associate them with what he thinks a girl is. Is that so wrong? Just because he's a main-char he has to be a flawless, non-sexistic modern model citizen who'd best wear a skirt because he wants to celebrate emancipation?

Sorry for the exaggeration, got carried away there.

They did it to Naomi when Penbar told her "you're just my wife" not an FBI agent [anymore].
Hey~ that's even been in the part of Death Note I still read~
Ever thought he might want her safe and out of harms way and expressed it that way? There's a lot of people that don't express themselves in the most direct or best ways. Or why do you think there's so many misunderstandings in this world?

And then back on Iwase, answer me honestly, if Iwase was a guy and proud of "his" high grades, would anyone think he was stupid?
Ever considered that it wasn't "being proud" but "being arrogant" or "stuck up" and that it was 'lost-in-translation'? Because it certainly seems like Iwase is portrayed as an arrogant, stuck up, "i'm-better-than-you-all" person. Though ch10 might be the beginning we get to see past that part of her.

I want to remind you again: All these opinions about these persons have been expressed and brought into a "sexist" context through a single young character at age 14. Then there's also the fact that we have yet to see him actually treat them in a way that'd imply he'd be the same in a relationship with a girl or even while talking with them.

I don't see how adding in these sexist details help the story at all.
It gives the main characters an immature touch while it gives them lots of room to grow themselves. Especially Shujin might be about to see his world thrown upside down with the appearance of Iwase in his room.

This isn't about the sexes being physically the same, it's about they way they are perceived.
Even then there's a difference.
For women, men are something to get into a reproductive relationship with.
For men, women are something to get into a reproductive relationship with.

That's biology, nature, instinct -- unless you're born or feeling a homosexual at which point you just want to get into a (sadly non-reprodructive) relationship with someone of the same gender, which is also fine.

A hetero-sexual being will always perceive the other gender differently from it's own, especially when they're just acting on they're instincts.

Or do you want to tell me it's sexist that I wouldn't want to get into a sexual relationship with another male? Sorry for not being Bi-sexual. I like my heterosexual self, even if I accept other peoples choices.

Iwase wouldn't be considered a nerd, but as an ambitious smart young man.
You're trying really hard to find the sexist part of this, aren't you?
No, Iwase would be considered an arrogant asshole if "he" acted as 'arrogant' as perceived by Takagi. Takagi sees her as an arrogant girl and it turns him off and he states his opinion clearly to Mashiro.

Why shouldn't the female Iwase be considered the same way?
She is.

Are you going to say a girl being too smart IS NOT cute at all and a turn off to men and be okay with it?
To the men in question, it might be a turn off.
Remember that there's also people who like arrogant people. Or people who like to be treated like shit. Or people who love to inflict pain on others.

Just because we don't see them in the manga doesn't mean they don't exist.

Are you seriously saying it's okay that young men and boys think like this and that maybe they'll grow out of it?
Yes. It totally is okay for them to think like that. It's called nature.
Just because we can think like this as humans, it does not mean we're not mammals at the genetic level. Is it so bad to measure up the "prize"(possible future partner in reproductive relationship) based upon your own preferences?

Manga should be socially proactive and not be dragging impressionable young minds backwards.
And I say I hate it when entertainment manga are turned into a lecturing device. There's enough that do it differently.

Just because one manga portrays that side of society you go up the wall? Wow, very proactive. I'm sure that leaves a good impression with the people.

ehem. Sorry for the sarcasm there, couldn't help myself.

I know exactly who are the protagonists, but like I said, there isn't a reason to knock over women in the process. They don't see women at all as something to compete with but as THE PRIZE. THAT IS SEXIST.
Are you reading the same manga as me?

Because right now I see very much competition between male and female there.
"If I can't be on the same level as her, I am not good enough for her."
Is it sexist to want to be good enough for the one you love? Heck, Mashiro even wants to be together with her regardless of either of theirs status.

Just because we don't yet see much about Azukis live, doesn't mean that she just sits there waiting as a prize. Actually, as implied by the story of Mashiro's Uncle, there's very much the thought of a woman making career. In whatever work they chose. I got no doubt that this story will see Azuki climbing the ladder too, even if it might not necessarily be the focus of the story.

I'll answer your question. Most guys prefer the cute and dumb type, and they are stupid, just as stupid as the women who behave that way.
You're awesome at generalizing too, btw <3
And "sexist" behavior is just another kind of generalization.

And sorry for being stupid because I have preferences. Something must be wrong with not being a mindless drone and having the thing called "preference".

And you ignored the fact that yes it is sexist that Azuki is portrayed as a prize.
She is portrayed as the prize? Aren't you forgetting that they agreed on the dreams of both coming true?

Also, if Iwase was so repulsive to him (and other guys) why the heck would he let her in to his house? What a hypocritical stupid guy.
Well, for one, we have yet to see whether the two girls arrived at his house alone or together and furthermore I don't remember that we heard that Takagi acts upon his superficial observations aside from stating them to a friend. I think that's a big point here: He may have his thoughts, but he doesn't necessarily act on them. Real 'sexist' behavior would be if he'd act on them.

"Thoughts are free," was it if I remember correctly?


So why don't you analyze the things as they really are instead or restating everything more or less already said.
Why are you restating what was already said, too?




P.S.: I'm sorry if I came over as offending towards homosexual or bisexual persons in this post. That isn't my intention.
 

eni

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I am going offense to this because what you're basically saying is because I'm a girl first I have no business reading a manga meant for guys or making an opinion on it.
I'm 100% sure if I were a guy instead you wouldn't feel like this and much more open to discussion.
Ehem sorry, but aren't you a little sexist here by claiming that he made this point just because he's a guy? I wonder if you feel offended too when I tell you that I thought the same after your last posts. He's fully right saying that this manga is aimed towards teenage boys, that's the demographic. As such it's also normal that the content is optimized on the view of boys in early/middle puberty, a phase were women are simply seen as aliens at first. So, it's indeed maybe better to read manga written for girls when you feel offended so much on "boys talk" - and that's not meant to be an insult.

Again, it's a comedy manga not a study book and it's ridiculous to ask for it to be political correct in terms of character design. Asking for protagonists to be role models would pretty much kill 3/4 of the existing series for various reasons (antihero, rebel, idiot, ...). You take this matter way too serious.

Also, this is an open discussion. You're free to leave it anytime but asking members to not reply gives the uncomfortable "I have the last word"-feeling only resulting in more provocative answers.


//edit... ttx was faster >.>
ttx said:
Until they're at least dead for 30-40 years I doubt you can get rid of all the sexist prejudices. Those people have been raised with them, lived by them, got them ingrained for all those years. You can't change where an old oak stands easily.
Besides that, who says that everyone wants change? I know a lot of women who would love to be housewives but society forces them into external work. You have no excuse nowadays anymore to concentrate on house and children, it's not seen as work anymore. 50 years ago, housework and raising the children was equal to the work of the husband. It was notable, the housewife respected for what she did. The screams for "equality" actually did great damage to this.

Anyways, let's bring this thread back to topic. The "sexist content" is surely part of the topic but let's try to reduce it to the actual chapter content and not write essays on feminist goals >.>
 
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PlayerKill

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

ttxdragon said:
Ever considered that it wasn't "being proud" but "being arrogant" or "stuck up" and that it was 'lost-in-translation'? Because it certainly seems like Iwase is portrayed as an arrogant, stuck up, "i'm-better-than-you-all" person. Though ch10 might be the beginning we get to see past that part of her.

You're trying really hard to find the sexist part of this, aren't you?
No, Iwase would be considered an arrogant asshole if "he" acted as 'arrogant' as perceived by Takagi. Takagi sees her as an arrogant girl and it turns him off and he states his opinion clearly to Mashiro.

And I say I hate it when entertainment manga are turned into a lecturing device. There's enough that do it differently.

"If I can't be on the same level as her, I am not good enough for her."
Is it sexist to want to be good enough for the one you love? Heck, Mashiro even wants to be together with her regardless of either of theirs status.

And sorry for being stupid because I have preferences. Something must be wrong with not being a mindless drone and having the thing called "preference".

Aren't you forgetting that they agreed on the dreams of both coming true?
Agreed. Totally. That's why I find the argument kinda ridiculous.


Ehem sorry, but aren't you a little sexist here by claiming that he made this point just because he's a guy? I wonder if you feel offended too when I tell you that I thought the same after your last posts. He's fully right saying that this manga is aimed towards teenage boys, that's the demographic. As such it's also normal that the content is optimized on the view of boys in early/middle puberty, a phase were women are simply seen as aliens at first. So, it's indeed maybe better to read manga written for girls when you feel offended so much on "boys talk" - and that's not meant to be an insult.

Again, it's a comedy manga not a study book and it's ridiculous to ask for it to be political correct in terms of character design. Asking for protagonists to be role models would pretty much kill 3/4 of the existing series for various reasons (antihero, rebel, idiot, ...). You take this matter way too serious.
Thank you. You really said what I wanted to say, in a better fashion than I ever could.

I'm sorry, magicbulletgirl, if my comment made you offended. It was not a "go read your shojou manga instead of shonen" comment that was only made since you are a girl. It was more like what eni has elaborated very wonderfully.

Like I said, there are always this girls talk about guys in chick flicks too. This is just the same kind of thing, but only that it's a guys' talk instead.

Can we actually discuss about something else? At first, I came to this topic because I found the manga very addictive and I really want to talk about how fun it is.
 
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Sexy Randal 105

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Hey, how about we discuss the plot more and wether or not ohba is sexist less! :D
 

eni

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Can we actually discuss about something else? At first, I came to this topic because I found the manga very addictive and I really want to talk about how fun it is.
Sure, start with it.

I was actually thinking, would it be interesting to collect the hints on "how to become a mangaka"? I'm talking about the tips and recommendations given and the steps explained in the manga. Anyone interested in doing that (as I'm simply to busy)? I would edit it into the first post.
 

PlayerKill

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Sure, start with it.
I've seen many people talk about how this manga is different from the rest of the Shonen manga. I think otherwise. I think the reason why I like it so much is more because it kind of illustrates what a shonen manga is/is supposed to be. I say "is supposed to be" because lately we've been getting typical shonen manga like Bleach and DGM (sry, no offense to the fans, but they are really good examples here) where everything is just about all the action. This manga is everything a shonen manga should be, only minus the action.

The way Shujin punched Ishizawa and back up Saiko who felt really down, the way the editor tells them to work together instead of each person doing his job separately, etc. The manga illustrates the friendship and the dream element of a shonen manga really well. Add the part about Azuki (the romance bit that's intended for guys, which reminds me of Ichigo 100% that I really miss) and the authors really made me so fond of this manga.

Maybe it's because I'm exactly the demographics this is aimed towards. Well, whatever. All I know is, the authors really got a big fan here.
 

bunshindattebayo

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I just read the latest chapter and it's pretty good.Oh,and the people who are the judges were pretty crazy.It's Oda,Inagaki,Kishimoto,and Toriyama.
 

Sherlock Holmes

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

......h...h...GHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! THAT PAGE WAS HILARIOUS!
I can't explain, but for some reason I laughed like crazy.
 

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Kind of interesting to see the differences between the crushes the two girls had. Iwase had this strange look on her face last week when she saw that Shujin had dropped in the rankings, and then we learn how she has always done her best because she considered it part of some agreement between the two of them to do their absolute best. It must have hurt her a lot to listen as he announced he was going to attend a lousy school and pursue a career that might never recognize his worth.

Miyoshi, on the other hand, was trying way too hard to make things happen. You could tell Shujin had no interest in her when she kept giving the answers she thought he would want to hear.

That last panel made me laugh too. It was also kind of amusing to look at who the judges were and then see their critique that the main character wasn't special from the get-go.
 

Maxy Barnard

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

if we're honest i still have an interest in seeing if iwase holds an interest in shujin again in the future, theres some more good drama waiting right there to be used.

and the editor in chief turned out to be a character i can get behind. hmmm............ this manga has an awesome cast. it should ipck up in the ranks
 

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

I am really liking this manga so far! I was already a fan of Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi because of Death Note (and Hikaru no Go, which was also illustrated by Obata Takeshi), now we get a whole new collaboration!

Bakuman (like Death Note) is different from the usual Shounen I read, and that makes it awesome! This latest chapter, with poor Shujin and his horrible girl-communication skills had me laughing. I look forward to reading this for a while! :D

P.S. As a woman who loves Shounen, I am fully aware of the sexism that boys/guys display in manga/anime. But it doesn't bother me because sadly, it's realistic (usually). I have two nephews, 13 and 14 years old, whom I constantly have to educate about females. Boys just think that way naturally, poor things. :p I'm just here for the action, adventure, and storylines!
 

Dorothy

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

It looks that Bakuman will get cover and colour pages in next Jump, news from here!
I hope in a positive sign for the future! :amuse
 

Samui

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Where can I read spoilers for the next chapter every week?
 

Sexy Randal 105

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Reading spoilers for an Ohba series kind of ruins reading it. =P
 

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

Whats the ranking in the TOC for bakuman right now?
 

Sexy Randal 105

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Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi

It's doing pretty good. It has a cover coming next week. That's a plus.
 
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