Re: Bakuman by Ohba Sugumi & Obata Takeshi
When I hear or read guys saying this I am just as offended as if it were told directly to me because I think of the way I think of myself.
Should I feel offended each time any female says "Guys are just brainless monkeys", "They only have Football, Cars and Boobs in they're heads. There's no space for more", "A guy ain't a guy if he likes girly things", etc etc?
I'm not a manly man, neither do I say I am. Actually, I've been mistaken for a girl often enough already (no joke!). And I don't find it offensive that some people tell me I ain't manly. But maybe I'm just desensitized to "insults" because I've been made the laughing stock about 'sexist' stuff for long enough in my life...
I don't know how it is for you, but for me the first step to squashing stereotypes is to actively live the non-stereotypical life. A stereotype became a stereotype because for a long time it's just
been like that. And the generation who has been raised with the whole "mother as housewife-only" mentality and has lived by it for very long
is not even dead yet.
Until they're at least dead for 30-40 years I doubt you can get rid of all the sexist prejudices. Those people have been raised with them, lived by them, got them ingrained for all those years. You can't change where an old oak stands easily.
Were you not a little offended when Takagi said about Azuki "Well like she's naturally absorbed the idea that it's feminine to be graceful and well mannered and that girls should be serious and not too smart. She was born with the ability to sense that being too smart isn't cute."...?
That stuff... I wonder if you not just overreact to it?
We got exactly
one person in the manga who stated that opinion. Shujin.
Furthermore, I think "being too smart" in this case means more like "being a smartass" and "never wanting others opinions/help". I'd like to think I speak for the majority of people when I say that it's easier to get along with people who might ask me for help some time and whom I can ask for help on something else. In how far it is "cute" to oneself is another question. Remember that one person said he thought it is cuter. "Being graceful and well-mannered" being attributed to femininity ain't wrong either. Even in non-sexist context you can put these into a relation.
Until now we got the opinion of a single person of whom there's no knowledge about his parents regards to sexist behavior.
But, you are already saying it's the authors opinion. Hurray for fast-track decisions.
He saw her first as a girl than a person.
Azuki and every girl in Sugumi's and Takeshi's mangas should be treated as people and they're not.
They are, but some teenager who happens to be a main-char wants to associate them with what he thinks a girl is. Is that so wrong? Just because he's a main-char he has to be a flawless, non-sexistic modern model citizen who'd best wear a skirt because he wants to celebrate emancipation?
Sorry for the exaggeration, got carried away there.
They did it to Naomi when Penbar told her "you're just my wife" not an FBI agent [anymore].
Hey~ that's even been in the part of Death Note I still read~
Ever thought he might want her safe and out of harms way and expressed it that way? There's a lot of people that don't express themselves in the most direct or best ways. Or why do you think there's so many misunderstandings in this world?
And then back on Iwase, answer me honestly, if Iwase was a guy and proud of "his" high grades, would anyone think he was stupid?
Ever considered that it wasn't "being proud" but "being arrogant" or "stuck up" and that it was 'lost-in-translation'? Because it certainly seems like Iwase
is portrayed as an arrogant, stuck up, "i'm-better-than-you-all" person. Though ch10 might be the beginning we get to see
past that part of her.
I want to remind you again: All these opinions about these persons have been expressed and brought into a "sexist" context through a single young character at age 14. Then there's also the fact that we have yet to see him actually
treat them in a way that'd imply he'd be the same in a relationship with a girl or even while talking with them.
I don't see how adding in these sexist details help the story at all.
It gives the main characters an immature touch while it gives them lots of room to grow themselves. Especially Shujin might be about to see his world thrown upside down with the appearance of Iwase in his room.
This isn't about the sexes being physically the same, it's about they way they are perceived.
Even then there's a difference.
For women, men are something to get into a reproductive relationship with.
For men, women are something to get into a reproductive relationship with.
That's biology, nature, instinct -- unless you're born or feeling a homosexual at which point you just want to get into a (sadly non-reprodructive) relationship with someone of the same gender, which is also fine.
A hetero-sexual being will
always perceive the other gender differently from it's own, especially when they're
just acting on they're instincts.
Or do you want to tell me it's sexist that I wouldn't want to get into a sexual relationship with another male? Sorry for not being Bi-sexual. I like my heterosexual self, even if I accept other peoples choices.
Iwase wouldn't be considered a nerd, but as an ambitious smart young man.
You're trying really hard to find the sexist part of this, aren't you?
No, Iwase would be considered an arrogant asshole if "he" acted as 'arrogant' as perceived by Takagi. Takagi sees her as an arrogant girl and it turns him off and he states his opinion clearly to Mashiro.
Why shouldn't the female Iwase be considered the same way?
She is.
Are you going to say a girl being too smart IS NOT cute at all and a turn off to men and be okay with it?
To the men in question, it might be a turn off.
Remember that there's also people who like arrogant people. Or people who like to be treated like shit. Or people who love to inflict pain on others.
Just because we don't see them in the manga doesn't mean they don't exist.
Are you seriously saying it's okay that young men and boys think like this and that maybe they'll grow out of it?
Yes. It totally is okay for them to think like that. It's called nature.
Just because we can think like this as humans, it does not mean we're not mammals at the genetic level. Is it so bad to measure up the "prize"(possible future partner in reproductive relationship) based upon your own preferences?
Manga should be socially proactive and not be dragging impressionable young minds backwards.
And I say I hate it when entertainment manga are turned into a lecturing device. There's enough that do it differently.
Just because one manga portrays that side of society you go up the wall? Wow, very proactive. I'm sure that leaves a good impression with the people.
ehem. Sorry for the sarcasm there, couldn't help myself.
I know exactly who are the protagonists, but like I said, there isn't a reason to knock over women in the process. They don't see women at all as something to compete with but as THE PRIZE. THAT IS SEXIST.
Are you reading the same manga as me?
Because right now I see very much competition between male and female there.
"If I can't be on the same level as her, I am not good enough for her."
Is it sexist to want to be good enough for the one you love? Heck, Mashiro even wants to be together with her regardless of either of theirs status.
Just because we don't yet see much about Azukis live, doesn't mean that she just sits there waiting as a prize. Actually, as implied by the story of Mashiro's Uncle, there's very much the thought of a woman making career. In whatever work they chose. I got no doubt that this story will see Azuki climbing the ladder too, even if it might not necessarily be the focus of the story.
I'll answer your question. Most guys prefer the cute and dumb type, and they are stupid, just as stupid as the women who behave that way.
You're awesome at generalizing too, btw <3
And "sexist" behavior is just another kind of generalization.
And sorry for being stupid because I have preferences. Something must be wrong with not being a mindless drone and having the thing called "preference".
And you ignored the fact that yes it is sexist that Azuki is portrayed as a prize.
She is portrayed as the prize? Aren't you forgetting that they agreed on the dreams of
both coming true?
Also, if Iwase was so repulsive to him (and other guys) why the heck would he let her in to his house? What a hypocritical stupid guy.
Well, for one, we have yet to see whether the two girls arrived at his house alone or together and furthermore I don't remember that we heard that Takagi acts upon his superficial observations aside from stating them to a friend. I think that's a big point here: He may have his thoughts, but he doesn't necessarily act on them. Real 'sexist' behavior would be if he'd act on them.
"Thoughts are free," was it if I remember correctly?
So why don't you analyze the things as they really are instead or restating everything more or less already said.
Why are you restating what was already said, too?
P.S.: I'm sorry if I came over as offending towards homosexual or bisexual persons in this post. That isn't my intention.
I'm just here for the action, adventure, and storylines!
