Fantasy Gildarts vs Hades

[Ramen]

Exactly, what a stupid argument lmao. Natsu isn't scared of anyone he considers an enemy, I thought of responding, then figured it's pointless

No point in discussing with that dude. His logic is literal bricks.

 

[grey matter]

the problem is where do y’all scale LFD natsu??? If y’all beleive he stronger than gildartz than gildartz lose round 1 if not gildartz wins

LFD Natsu with Natsu+Laxus magic power? Yea. LFD is basically an imperfect unison raid, which makes spells stronger than just combining two magics. The LFD Natsu we saw in Tenrou >> Laxus

Gildarts is apparently GMG Jura tier, and I think Tenrou Laxus would give GMG Jura mid-high diff.

I also consider Gildarts to be Makarov tier (but a bit below), who was getting mid diff'd by base Hades.

Base Hades also has portrayal over Warrod, who is far superior to Jura based on portrayal.

 

[Sinister Spirit]

the problem is where do y’all scale LFD natsu??? If y’all beleive he stronger than gildartz than gildartz lose round 1 if not gildartz wins

The thing is that Hades barely even fought back even though he had feats proving he could have. I mean an Amaterasu 100 could've 1-shotted LFD Natsu very easily, and even if we assume Natsu was too fast due to lightning speed, Laxus ALSO had this same lightning speed and yet Hades could react to some of his attacks, he could even use Telekinesis to immobilize him long enough to cast an Amaterasu 28.

Honestly, I think Hades was just toying with LFD Natsu, and yes Natsu managed to "beat" him thanks to it, but it took all his energy and he was too exhausted to keep fighting, plus Hades had no-major injury, he was mostly stunned. So technically, it could almost be considered a draw since BOTH were down. Hades on the other hand could've defeated LFD Natsu without showing any sign of exhaustion if he had fought more seriously.

Here's a clue on how LFD Natsu isn't that strong: The gap between Natsu and Laxus gradually diminished throughout the story (to the point Natsu surpassed him in Alvalez), yet even in Tartaros, Laxus stomped Etherious Form Tempester while LFD Natsu was even to him.

 

[LaGOAT]

The thing is that Hades barely even fought back even though he had feats proving he could have. I mean an Amaterasu 100 could've 1-shotted LFD Natsu very easily, and even if we assume Natsu was too fast due to lightning speed, Laxus ALSO had this same lightning speed and yet Hades could react to some of his attacks, he could even use Telekinesis to immobilise him long enough to cast an Amaterasu 28.

Honestly, I think Hades was just toying with LFD Natsu, and yes Natsu managed to "beat" him thanks to it, but it took all his energy and he was too exhausted to keep fighting. So technically, it could almost be considered a draw since BOTH were down. Hades on the other hand could've defeated LFD Natsu without breaking a sweat if he had fought more seriously.

Here's a clue on how LFD Natsu isn't that strong: The gap between Natsu and Laxus gradually diminished throughout the story, yet even in Tartaros (long after Tenrou), Laxus stomped Etherious Form Tempester while LFD Natsu was even to him.

i wouldnt say hades didnt fight back as he tried to but natsu able to speedblitz him 2. In FT especially for DS eating another element increase their power significantly. so lfd natsu>laxus.

LFD natsu tenrou>>>lfd natsu post timeskip even natsu admitted it

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2021 ---

LFD Natsu with Natsu+Laxus magic power? Yea. LFD is basically an imperfect unison raid, which makes spells stronger than just combining two magics. The LFD Natsu we saw in Tenrou >> Laxus

Gildarts is apparently GMG Jura tier, and I think Tenrou Laxus would give GMG Jura mid-high diff.

I also consider Gildarts to be Makarov tier (but a bit below), who was getting mid diff'd by base Hades.

Base Hades also has portrayal over Warrod, who is far superior to Jura based on portrayal.

i always had hades at low tier spriggan level. but if u lfd natsu>gildartz than gildartz loses

 

[grey matter]

i wouldnt say hades didnt fight back as he tried to but natsu able to speedblitz him 2. In FT especially for DS eating another element increase their power significantly. so lfd natsu>laxus.

LFD natsu tenrou>>>lfd natsu post timeskip even natsu admitted it

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2021 ---

i always had hades at low tier spriggan level. but always if u lfd natsu>gildartz than gildartz loses

And I don't think LFD Natsu is stronger than base Hades either. He used up all that mp and Hades was only momentarily knocked out - In the same way Jellol's Grand Chariot and Laxus' roar knocked out Natsu for a while (except they used only a small fraction of their MP, meaning they could've immediately followed up and killed incapacitated Natsu if they wished. While Natsu gave his 100% and couldn't even stand on his feet from exhaustion).
But was a good enough performance to make him get serious, and open his devil's eye & activate Grimoire Heart. So, I'll consider that a high diff win for base Hades.
And yes, you're right about the speed blitz. It wasn't that Hades didn't use his high tier spells, it's more than he COULDN'T find the time to cast. Because Natsu was constantly attacking him.

I think LFD Natsu > Gildarts, but not by much. Gildarts could probably knock out Hades for a while too, if he used up all his MP on a single attack.

IMO, base Hades mid-high diff Gildarts (leaning towards high diff).
GH Hades low diff Gildarts

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2021 ---

No point in discussing with that dude. His logic is literal bricks.

A bit harsh lmao, but some of these guys ..........

 

[Ramen]

A bit harsh lmao, but some of these guys ..........

Nah because at this point, you gotta call it out. I've had dumb moments, you've had dumb moments but we fixed up.

Trying to use fear as logic is literal bricks.

 

[Sinister Spirit]

I think LFD Natsu > Gildarts, but not by much. Gildarts could probably knock out Hades for a while too, if he used up all his MP on a single attack.

I personally consider Gildarts > LFD Natsu. Even if the buff he had from Laxus made him stronger than all the other times he went LFD, I still consider this buff lower or at least equal to DF. And if we go forward, DF Tartaros Natsu (who was stronger than LFD Tenrou Natsu) was still weaker than Mard Geer, whom I personally consider close to Hades' level or x791 Gildarts.

Granted, Mard was in Etherious form and a lot of time passed between these two events, but Natsu is supposed to grow in power more quickly than anyone else since he's the main character. If his Tartaros DF was weaker than (or close to) x791 Gildarts, his Tenrou LFD should be weaker than Tenrou Gildarts.

 

[grey matter]

I personally consider Gildarts > LFD Natsu. Even if the buff he had from Laxus made him stronger than all the other times he went LFD, I still consider this buff lower or at least equal to DF. And if we go forward, DF Tartaros Natsu (who was stronger than LFD Tenrou Natsu) was still weaker than Mard Geer, whom I personally consider close to Hades' level or x791 Gildarts.

Granted, Mard was in Etherious form and a lot of time passed between these two events, but Natsu is supposed to grow in power more quickly than anyone else since he's the main character. If his Tartaros DF was weaker than (or close to) x791 Gildarts, his Tenrou LFD should be weaker than Tenrou Gildarts.

Yes, the DF he used against Mard is stronger. But Etherious Mard >> base Hades. The full power attack used by DF Natsu did near zero damage to Mard. He pretty much no sold the attack and was about to smash Natsu's head. While the same attack would've knocked out base Hades like LFD Natsu did. Hell, that attack probably would've killed him before he could activate GH & Devil's eyes.
Point being, you can't scale base Hades to etherious Mard.
If it's GH Hades, I suppose we you can argue for that. It's hard to compare, since he's featless; all we know is that GH Hades was tiers above base Hades. But so is etherious Mard.

Tenrou Gildarts is GMG Jura tier. Kyouka, who can probably give GMG Jura high diff, was fodder to base Mard. Tenrou Gildarts won't even beat base Mard, let alone etherious Mard. Base Mard should at least be base Hades level

 

[Sinister Spirit]

Tenrou Gildarts is GMG Jura tier. Kyouka, who can probably give GMG Jura high diff, was fodder to base Mard. Tenrou Gildarts won't even beat base Mard, let alone etherious Mard. Base Mard should at least be base Hades level

In my opinion GMG Jura would mid-diff Kyouka. Post timeskip Jura and Laxus were almost even, and Laxus stomped Etherious Tempester easily (when he wasn't poisoned), so if Kyouka is truly the strongest Demon Gate, I see her lasting longer than Tempester, but she still wouldn't give Laxus or Jura (or Tenrou Gildarts) much trouble.

And I wouldn't say Kyouka is THAT weaker than Mard, she's his servant, so it's normal she wouldn't fight back when he punishes her. Sure, if they had an actual fight, Mard wouldn't have trouble beating her, but she should do better than Sting and Rogue (who already lasted quite long since Mard's Thorns aren't very accurate against small and fast targets, and if they could tank his explosions, so can Kyouka).

 

[Crimson Ice]

Natsu was more afraid against Gildarts than against Hades.
R1 : Gildarts low/mid-diff
R2 : Gildarts high-diff

Natsu was more scared of Zancrow too, does this mean Zancrow>Hades

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2021 ---

I personally consider Gildarts > LFD Natsu. Even if the buff he had from Laxus made him stronger than all the other times he went LFD, I still consider this buff lower or at least equal to DF. And if we go forward, DF Tartaros Natsu (who was stronger than LFD Tenrou Natsu) was still weaker than Mard Geer, whom I personally consider close to Hades' level or x791 Gildarts.

Granted, Mard was in Etherious form and a lot of time passed between these two events, but Natsu is supposed to grow in power more quickly than anyone else since he's the main character. If his Tartaros DF was weaker than (or close to) x791 Gildarts, his Tenrou LFD should be weaker than Tenrou Gildarts.

Mard Geer is smoking the boots Hades and Gildarts.

 

[Sinister Spirit]

Mard Geer is smoking the boots Hades and Gildarts.

Mard Geer gave a stronger IMPRESSION than them by calling himself Underworld King, having a creepy soundtrack, surviving a fight with CSK and blocking attacks from mages of Natsu's level like nothing, but that's about it. When it comes to offensive power, he often CLAIMED that his opponents were insects he could easily crush, but he never did, they dodged or tanked his attacks pretty easily even once he was in Etherious form, to the point Natsu had time to exhaust himself BEFORE being defeated by Mard's attacks. Even if we assume he was indeed holding back, being so arrogant could cause his downfall against opponents as strong as Gildarts or Hades.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Mard Geer gave a stronger IMPRESSION than them by calling himself Underworld King, having a creepy soundtrack, surviving a fight with CSK and blocking attacks from mages of Natsu's level like nothing, but that's about it. When it comes to offensive power, he often CLAIMED that his opponents were insects he could easily crush, but he never did, they dodged or tanked his attacks pretty easily even once he was in Etherious form, to the point Natsu had time to exhaust himself BEFORE being defeated by Mard's attacks. Even if we assume he was indeed holding back, being so arrogant could cause his downfall against opponents as strong as Gildarts or Hades.

He held back because his opponents were nothing compared to him. He sat there and bullied Natsu, Sting and Rouge the entire fight. Mard isn’t stupid, which is why he got serious when Gray arrived and would or turned Natsu isn’t nothing if Gray couldn’t counter his move. The CSK alone feat wise is more impressive than pre Skip Gildarts and Mard was fine against him.

Mard is turning Gildarts inside out. Your whole explanation even points towards Mard being stronger, as you just say he’s arrogant and not weaker.

LFD Natsu on Tenrou was the strongest FT member. Gildarts somewhat struggled with Bluenote (people love to look at the end of the battle, they were competitive for awhile) while Natsu was straight up bullying base Hades.

 

[Nemispelled]

LFD Natsu on Tenrou was the strongest FT member. Gildarts somewhat struggled with Bluenote (people love to look at the end of the battle, they were competitive for awhile) while Natsu was straight up bullying base Hades.

Did I really read this bolded statement correctly? (No sarcasm intended, I'm being completely honest here)

I think there is a unanimous consensus here that it's the exact opposite. Hades was bullying Natsu and the rest of his team for 99% of the fight. Nobody in Team Natsu was even close to Hades' league. Even Laxus blatantly admitted he was far below Hades' tier.

 

[grey matter]

Did I really read this bolded statement correctly? (No sarcasm intended, I'm being completely honest here)

I think there is a unanimous consensus here that it's the exact opposite. Hades was bullying Natsu and the rest of his team for 99% of the fight. Nobody in Team Natsu was even close to Hades' league. Even Laxus blatantly admitted he was far below Hades' tier.

He meant LFD Natsu.
LFD Natsu (Tenrou) >> Laxus.

I wouldn't say bullied, but he did beat up base Hades. LFD Natsu caught Hades by surprise and kept on attacking him non stop without giving Hades room to breathe. And, in the end, managed to knock him out for like a minute while using up all his power. LFD Natsu is definitely in base Hades tier.

 

[Nemispelled]

He meant LFD Natsu.
LFD Natsu (Tenrou) >> Laxus.

I wouldn't say bullied, but he did beat up base Hades. LFD Natsu caught Hades by surprise and kept on attacking him non stop without giving Hades room to breathe. And, in the end, managed to knock him out for like a minute while using up all his power. LFD Natsu is definitely in base Hades tier.

If he meant LFD Natsu, then he didn't just "bully" base Hades. He also bullied Devil's Eye Hades (with his LFD Crimson Lotus secret art).

But regardless, Natsu at his best was clearly far below Hades. And Laxus himself outright stated that he "still had ways to go" before even being a match for Base Hades. If neither were even close to Hades' tier, adding 1 + 1 together isn't going to make a difference, let alone warrant the term "bully".

At most, we can say that Natsu's win was a fluke (more than likely due to plot), but if Hades was bloodlusted with the intent to kill Team Natsu + Laxus from the start, it would've undoubtedly happened.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Did I really read this bolded statement correctly? (No sarcasm intended, I'm being completely honest here)

I think there is a unanimous consensus here that it's the exact opposite. Hades was bullying Natsu and the rest of his team for 99% of the fight. Nobody in Team Natsu was even close to Hades' league. Even Laxus blatantly admitted he was far below Hades' tier.

Oh wow, it was blatantly obvious I was referring to LFD Natsu.....

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2021 ---

If he meant LFD Natsu, then he didn't just "bully" base Hades. He also bullied Devil's Eye Hades (with his LFD Crimson Lotus secret art).

But regardless, Natsu at his best was clearly far below Hades. And Laxus himself outright stated that he "still had ways to go" before even being a match for Base Hades. If neither were even close to Hades' tier, adding 1 + 1 together isn't going to make a difference, let alone warrant the term "bully".

At most, we can say that Natsu's win was a fluke (more than likely due to plot), but if Hades was bloodlusted with the intent to kill Team Natsu + Laxus from the start, it would've undoubtedly happened.

I don’t care how strong you think either Natsu or Laxus we’re compared to Hades, Natsu bullied him when LFD was activated. No amount of A+B doesn’t equal C will change that.

 

[Nemispelled]

Oh wow, it was blatantly obvious I was referring to LFD Natsu.....

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2021 ---

I don’t care how strong you think either Natsu or Laxus we’re compared to Hades, Natsu bullied him when LFD was activated. No amount of A+B doesn’t equal C will change that.

Except it's not what I think... we were literally shown in the manga that Natsu was no match for Hades and Laxus (who is likely even stronger than Natsu) admitted he was nowhere near Hades league. The two characters and canon facts speak for themselves.

And the conditions of this thread clearly outline that both Gildartz and Hades are bloodlusted from the start. That's the difference. And it's also the reason why the A+B=C stuff matters.

The reason why Hades was defeated in the manga was because he was not bloodlusted against Team Natsu + Laxus. You can't extract a simple win you see from the manga without any context and expect it to apply the same way in a fantasy battle such as this...

 

[grey matter]

If he meant LFD Natsu, then he didn't just "bully" base Hades. He also bullied Devil's Eye Hades (with his LFD Crimson Lotus secret art).

But regardless, Natsu at his best was clearly far below Hades. And Laxus himself outright stated that he "still had ways to go" before even being a match for Base Hades. If neither were even close to Hades' tier, adding 1 + 1 together isn't going to make a difference, let alone warrant the term "bully".

No he didn't lmao. Devil's Eye can only work if GH is activated. Base Hades cannot use Devil's eye, which was why his eye stopped glowing once GH was destroyed, and all the demons he created tuned to rubble. So, in the end, LFD Natsu only bullied base Hades.

Far below GH Hades? Definitely.
Far below base Hades? Nah. You don't knock out someone for like a minute while being far below his level. I'm not saying LFD Natsu is superior either, since he completely used up his MP and Hades got up within a minute. But, knocking out base Hades for a while does suggest that he is in the tier.

It isn't simply "1 + 1"
It's true that simply adding Laxus's and Natsu's MP won't be even near base Hade's MP.
But LFD isn't simply "adding power". LFD is basically a unison raid performed by a single mage. Unision raid's potency >> simply adding magic power. This has been explained and demonstrated many times in the series.
This is why LFD Natsu, even with only Natsu's MP later on in the series, is far superior to base Natsu.

It's really simple.
LFD Natsu (Laxus + Natsu) MP >> Laxus + Natsu
LFD Natsu (only Natsu) MP >> base Natsu

No amount of A+B doesn’t equal C will change that.

And it's a flawed logic to begin with. When a new mode is involved, it's not simply adding MP anymore.

By the way he's arguing, regular LFD Natsu = base Natsu

 

[Crimson Ice]

Except it's not what I think... we were literally shown in the manga that Natsu was no match for Hades and Laxus (who is likely even stronger than Natsu) admitted he was nowhere near Hades league. The two characters and canon facts speak for themselves.

And the conditions of this thread clearly outline that both Gildartz and Hades are bloodlusted from the start. That's the difference. And it's also the reason why the A+B=C stuff matters.

The reason why Hades was defeated in the manga was because he was not bloodlusted against Team Natsu + Laxus. You can't extract a simple win you see from the manga without any context and expect it to apply the same way in a fantasy battle such as this...

Clearly the A+B=C shit doesn’t matter if LFD Natsu wouldn’t have ragdolled base Hades.

Hades was beat because his heart was destroyed. Base Hades being bloodlusted agaisny LFD Natsu wouldn’t have changed a damn thing, the power gap was too wide, which is why he went straight to using the heart.

No amount of “context” helps you. If Hades was bloodlusted he would of killed team Natsu before Laxus arrived, that doesn’t mean he would have overpowered LFD Natsu.

Tenrou LFD Natsu is significantly stronger than base Hades, him being bloodlusted would probably only means he pulls the heart out faster, not him being able to match Natsu in base.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2021 ---

No he didn't lmao. Devil's Eye can only work if GH is activated. Base Hades cannot use Devil's eye, which was why his eye stopped glowing once GH was destroyed, and all the demons he created tuned to rubble. So, in the end, LFD Natsu only bullied base Hades.

Far below GH Hades? Definitely.
Far below base Hades? Nah. You don't knock out someone for like a minute while being far below his level. I'm not saying LFD Natsu is superior either, since he completely used up his MP and Hades got up within a minute. But, knocking out base Hades for a while does suggest that he is in the tier.

It isn't simply "1 + 1"
It's true that simply adding Laxus's and Natsu's MP won't be even near base Hade's MP.
But LFD isn't simply "adding power". LFD is basically a unison raid performed by a single mage. Unision raid's potency >> simply adding magic power. This has been explained and demonstrated many times in the series.
This is why LFD Natsu, even with only Natsu's MP later on in the series, is far superior to base Natsu.

It's really simple.
LFD Natsu (Laxus + Natsu) MP >> Laxus + Natsu
LFD Natsu (only Natsu) MP >> base Natsu


And it's a flawed logic to begin with. When a new mode is involved, it's not simply adding MP anymore.

By the way he's arguing, regular LFD Natsu = base Natsu

That’s like saying if Natsu and Laxus roar’d Hades at the same time it would do the same damage as the Natsu’s LFD roar

 

[Sinister Spirit]

He held back because his opponents were nothing compared to him. He sat there and bullied Natsu, Sting and Rouge the entire fight. Mard isn’t stupid, which is why he got serious when Gray arrived and would or turned Natsu isn’t nothing if Gray couldn’t counter his move. The CSK alone feat wise is more impressive than pre Skip Gildarts and Mard was fine against him.

Mard is turning Gildarts inside out. Your whole explanation even points towards Mard being stronger, as you just say he’s arrogant and not weaker.

LFD Natsu on Tenrou was the strongest FT member. Gildarts somewhat struggled with Bluenote (people love to look at the end of the battle, they were competitive for awhile) while Natsu was straight up bullying base Hades.

I never affirmed Mard was stronger but holding back, I said "even if we assume", which means it's only a possibility, and I personally don't believe it, especially since he didn't fear CSK one bit and managed to impale him BUT he did show signs of worriness against a Devil Slayer, yet he used less powerful attacks against him than against CSK. And you said yourself he wasn't stupid (which I agree with), so if he truly was serious, I think there must be a weakness in his powers.

My personal theory is that Mard's powers reflect his personality: He wants to destroy Zeref, so he created Memento Mori for that purpose (which explains its small range and AoE, it was meant for ONE human-sized target, not for giants or armies). He only sees huge immortal beings like CSK as potential threats, so his strongest attacks aren't very accurate but they don't need to be since the target is huge. He sees humans as powerless insects, so his most accurate attacks aren't very strong but he thinks that's all he needs since he's extremely fast and durable, so he can stay on defensive and slowly beat them down.


And Gildarts was mostly struggling with Bluenote because for most of their fight, he was drained of his magic so Bluenote could beat the s**t out of him. Because of it, he was still hurt once he got his magic back, and even then I didn't see much competition: Gildarts Crushed Bluenote's Black Hole and 1-shotted him, that's all.

For the LFD Natsu VS Hades fight on the other hand, Natsu only had the advantage due to speed, Hades still outclassed him in all other stats (his bigger spells could've 1-shotted Natsu easily, he just didn't have time to cast them since Natsu was constantly interrupting him), and even then I think he could've won if he took Natsu more seriously: After he threw Titan Makarov a kilometer away, he was fast enough to join him in a few seconds, so even though his ATTACK speed wasn't as fast as LFD Natsu's, his TRAVELING speed sure was better. Thus, he could've tried to escape his ship and gain enough range and time for bigger spells, but he probably prefered staying close to his heart out of precaution, even if it meant letting Natsu "beat" him and using his heart to get back up.