I genuinely admire your 10 pages of persistence on this battle and your arguments, haha.
I (personally) equate a move like Natsu's Demolition Fist to other top tier power-type moves such as Jellal and his grand chariot. After re-reading the above mentioned fights (Natsu vs. Jacob, Natsu vs. God of War) in which Natsu used Demolition Fist, I haven't seen any "barrage" of Demolition Fist -- only one really powerful attack.
So for moves like Natsu's Demolition Fist with Jellal's Grand Chariot in which there is consists a large amount of power behind each attack, I don't believe it's possible to use a move like that in rapid succession. For example, after casting Grand Chariot, Jellal was noticeably tired. After using Demolition Fist against Jacob, Natsu was heavily breathing. So yes, I agree with you in that if Natsu "used powerful attacks like the Demolition First in quick sucession in a barrage on Serena" Serena would definitely not win. However, I don't feel it correct to assume that Natsu can do this because it has never been shown that it is possible to fire large attacks like Demolition Fist in rapid succession and retain that amount of power per hit.
As for "Serena feeling very discomforted just from the sheer heat of the mode" that wouldn't apply because since (dictionary definition) Dragon Slayer can eat their own elements, and nothing has been shown to say a person with multiple lacrimas in their bodies can't eat multiple elements or anything related to that, God Serena would probably not be bothered by the heat either. (And I can understand if you would like to disagree with that as it is the backbone of your argument.)
I personally believe this is just a bad match-up for Natsu, even if he's stronger than God Serena in terms of feats and power display.
When I said Natsu could use the Demolition Fist in a barrage of attacks, I was more referring to Natsu having previously strung together a lot of attacks fluently and proposed he'd be able to the same, but with fewer attacks at the same consistent power level when it came to using Flame Dragon King techniques one after the other. While the Demolition Fist is certainly a stronger attack, Natsu wasn't too vexed when it came to using it on the War God, mind you when he attacked Jacob with it he did it in FDKM and was still recovering from the tumour nearly killing him, so being hindered by that could possibly be why he was tired after the Demolition Fist on Jacob, but it mightn't be the case as well.
I would and will disagree with Serena having the ability to eat elements and have resistances to the elements he has lacrima for as per my earlier posts, but even if he had a resistance to fire, I think Serena against FDKM Natsu would be a bit like Natsu vs Zancrow, where Serena would still be feeling the heat from Natsu's attacks like how Natsu felt Zancrow's attacks be 'hot', so he'd be feeling some discomfort still. And there's my other points about Serena's attacks being moot against Natsu as Natsu can evaporate the Sea King Dragon attacks, dispel the Gale Dragon attacks, eat the Purgatory Dragon attacks and avoid the Cavern Dragon attacks, so Serena is still at a loss when it comes to damaging Natsu there, and if it came down to pure force of attacks, from what we've seen Natsu in FDKM, or Dragon Force would still overwhelm Serena and take him down. I mean, Serena hasn't got feats on the level of Natsu's FDK Demolition Fist or FDK Roar when it comes to AoE and attack power, and Dragon Force Natsu would absolutely blitz Serena in terms of speed. So with all of that I see Natsu winning this.
When I said Natsu could use the Demolition Fist in a barrage of attacks, I was more referring to Natsu having previously strung together a lot of attacks fluently and proposed he'd be able to the same, but with fewer attacks at the same consistent power level when it came to using Flame Dragon King techniques one after the other. While the Demolition Fist is certainly a stronger attack, Natsu wasn't too vexed when it came to using it on the War God, mind you when he attacked Jacob with it he did it in FDKM and was still recovering from the tumour nearly killing him, so being hindered by that could possibly be why he was tired after the Demolition Fist on Jacob, but it mightn't be the case as well.
I would and will disagree with Serena having the ability to eat elements and have resistances to the elements he has lacrima for as per my earlier posts, but even if he had a resistance to fire, I think Serena against FDKM Natsu would be a bit like Natsu vs Zancrow, where Serena would still be feeling the heat from Natsu's attacks like how Natsu felt Zancrow's attacks be 'hot', so he'd be feeling some discomfort still. And there's my other points about Serena's attacks being moot against Natsu as Natsu can evaporate the Sea King Dragon attacks, dispel the Gale Dragon attacks, eat the Purgatory Dragon attacks and avoid the Cavern Dragon attacks, so Serena is still at a loss when it comes to damaging Natsu there, and if it came down to pure force of attacks, from what we've seen Natsu in FDKM, or Dragon Force would still overwhelm Serena and take him down. I mean, Serena hasn't got feats on the level of Natsu's FDK Demolition Fist or FDK Roar when it comes to AoE and attack power, and Dragon Force Natsu would absolutely blitz Serena in terms of speed. So with all of that I see Natsu winning this.
At this point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it up to the votes, as opposed to stringing together the same arguments for another 10 pages. May the best mage win.
I would and will disagree with Serena having the ability to eat elements and have resistances to the elements he has lacrima for as per my earlier posts,
I'll redirect you to my own earlier posts that you keep leaving unanswered and ignored.
This is my last attempt to convince you. We're already past stubborness anyway :P
Natsu eating flames, or Wendy eating fire, is made possible by them just breathing heavily. They are able to inhale the element because this element is not solid.
Gajeel eating pieces of iron, coming for Levy's Solid Script for instance, is different. He can't just have his mouth wide open, breath in, and all the iron come straight into his mouth. No, this is not possible for him since iron is in a solid form.
Same goes with Gajeel eating the Grimoire Heart Samurai's sword. He couldn't during the fight, and at the end he managed to prevent the sword from moving. Then, as the element is immobile, he could just crunch it and eat it all.
God Serena not eating Jura's rock doesn't prove anything at all, and i already explained it in my earlier posts. If that's still not enough to convince you, then please just acknowledge the fact that GS couldn't just crunch the rock while the rock was moving at him at high speed, hitting him. That's just ridiculous.
GS can absorb/eat his own elements, as every GS can since it's part of the DS magic. He just can not eat an element that's in a solid form and moving, like Jura's rock.
But i guess if you're still disagreeing with that, we'll just have to leave this debate and move on
I'll redirect you to my own earlier posts that you keep leaving unanswered and ignored.
This is my last attempt to convince you. We're already past stubborness anyway :P
Natsu eating flames, or Wendy eating fire, is made possible by them just breathing heavily. They are able to inhale the element because this element is not solid.
Gajeel eating pieces of iron, coming for Levy's Solid Script for instance, is different. He can't just have his mouth wide open, breath in, and all the iron come straight into his mouth. No, this is not possible for him since iron is in a solid form.
Same goes with Gajeel eating the Grimoire Heart Samurai's sword. He couldn't during the fight, and at the end he managed to prevent the sword from moving. Then, as the element is immobile, he could just crunch it and eat it all.
God Serena not eating Jura's rock doesn't prove anything at all, and i already explained it in my earlier posts. If that's still not enough to convince you, then please just acknowledge the fact that GS couldn't just crunch the rock while the rock was moving at him at high speed, hitting him. That's just ridiculous.
GS can absorb/eat his own elements, as every GS can since it's part of the DS magic. He just can not eat an element that's in a solid form and moving, like Jura's rock.
But i guess if you're still disagreeing with that, we'll just have to leave this debate and move on
Well now, while Jura's rockiron fists did move at a decent pace, Serena as a Dragon Slayer still should've been able to shrug the attack off better if he had resistances to the elements which would go hand in hand with him being able to eat elements, something he didn't do, but as you pointed out it was too fast for him, which shows that Serena mightn't have that great a reaction speed or that great a speed in general.
Well now, while Jura's rockiron fists did move at a decent pace, Serena as a Dragon Slayer still should've been able to shrug the attack off better if he had resistances to the elements which would go hand in hand with him being able to eat elements, something he didn't do, but as you pointed out it was too fast for him, which shows that Serena mightn't have that great a reaction speed or that great a speed in general.
Yeah, i actually think GS not eating or dodging the attack, is due to his bad reaction speed rather than him not being able to eat or resist his elements. That's way more believable.
God Serena didn't impress me with his speed or reaction speed, so i think that's the correct thing to assume.
Yeah, i actually think GS not eating or dodging the attack, is due to his bad reaction speed rather than him not being able to eat or resist his elements. That's way more believable.
God Serena didn't impress me with his speed or reaction speed, so i think that's the correct thing to assume.
God Serena never fought hand to hand so we don't know the extent of his abilities, as well as his speed or reaction speed. We know that he cannot react against full speed human form Acnologia, as neither could August or Jacob.
The only attacks that God Serena received seemed to do no damage to him. Base Serena was enough to casually stomp the 3 GoI + Jura. When they rised up and began their attack, he might've thought: let's see what they're made of. I mean, he clearly wasn't hurt by any of these attack (only arguably by Hyberion, who seemed to either drain his power or leave him without oxygen).
Of course God Serena didn't impress with his speed or reaction speed, because he had nothing to run towards or to react to, until the ultimate foe appeared and fodderized him. I want to think, being the Spriggans so overhyped and all, that his speed and reaction speed is at least on par with Natsu's, but that's up to opinion.
God Serena never fought hand to hand so we don't know the extent of his abilities, as well as his speed or reaction speed. We know that he cannot react against full speed human form Acnologia, as neither could August or Jacob.
The only attacks that God Serena received seemed to do no damage to him. Base Serena was enough to casually stomp the 3 GoI + Jura. When they rised up and began their attack, he might've thought: let's see what they're made of. I mean, he clearly wasn't hurt by any of these attack (only arguably by Hyberion, who seemed to either drain his power or leave him without oxygen).
Of course God Serena didn't impress with his speed or reaction speed, because he had nothing to run towards or to react to, until the ultimate foe appeared and fodderized him. I want to think, being the Spriggans so overhyped and all, that his speed and reaction speed is at least on par with Natsu's, but that's up to opinion.
Yeah i understand you don't worry. I was implying that "God Serena has a bad reaction speed" is much more believable than "God Serena can't eat elements".
But assuming GS tanked their attacks in order to see what they are made of, IS a baseless guess. He might have been purely outsped. Or he was too lazy to dodge since the attacks apparently had close to no effect (aside from Hyberion's, as you pointed out). We can't really know or determine God Serena's reaction speed, thus i don't think it's safe to assume his reaction speed is a good as Natsu's.
So as you say, it's up to opinion. The fact that God Serena casually stomped GoI+Jura, adn was portrayed as the most powerful wizard in Ishgar, surely means he doesn't have such a mediocre reaction speed, but that's only assumptions
Yeah i understand you don't worry. I was implying that "God Serena has a bad reaction speed" is much more believable than "God Serena can't eat elements".
But assuming GS tanked their attacks in order to see what they are made of, IS a baseless guess. He might have been purely outsped. Or he was too lazy to dodge since the attacks apparently had close to no effect (aside from Hyberion's, as you pointed out). We can't really know or determine God Serena's reaction speed, thus i don't think it's safe to assume his reaction speed is a good as Natsu's.
So as you say, it's up to opinion. The fact that God Serena casually stomped GoI+Jura, adn was portrayed as the most powerful wizard in Ishgar, surely means he doesn't have such a mediocre reaction speed, but that's only assumptions
Exactly, whether he tanked the attacks because he wanted to test the extent of their powers, because he was being lazy or because they outsped him is something we cannot know. The first two, which I lean on more, would prove he wasn't outsped; the second one, that he was indeed.
With it getting very close to Discussion ending for this fight, I'd say its time to make my final push for why Natsu defeats God Serena in this fight. So here is why I believe Natsu would defeat God Serena:
1. Natsu renders Serena's attacks useless. From what Serena has shown, he has four elements (Cavern Dragon, Purgatory Dragon, Sea King Dragon and Gale Dragon), and I believe Natsu can render all of those elemental attacks useless. For the Sea King Dragon attacks, he can evaporate them like he evaporated the huge lake behind the guild in Magnolia. For the Gale Dragon attacks, he can dispel them in a similar fashion to how he dispelled Erigor's Storm Mail when the two fought in the Eisenwald arc. The Purgatory Dragon attacks will simply be eaten as they're flame-based attacks from what we've seen, and Natsu can eat flames. As for the Cavern Dragon attacks, Natsu can shoot up into the air using flames from his legs to propel him, akin to what he did under Bluenote's gravity in the Reunion arc. With no means to hit Natsu, its incredibly hard for Serena to win.
2. God Serena hasn't shown he resistances to the elements he wields, meaning he would be fully effected by Natsu's attacks. Now, I've made the argument before that God Serena hasn't got resistances, and going hand in hand with that is that he also can't eat elements he wields. While eating elements is still up in the air because he was slow to react to Jura's rockiron fist attack (something he should be able to eat), he was unable to which while I think might be because he's unable to (Having eight lacrima at his disposal has to come with some disadvantages, eating elements he wields and not being resistant to elements he wields being those disadvantages), the situation with Jura can also mean he was unable to because he was too slow to react (comes down to slow reactions / being slow in general). What the attack from Jura did show though is that he does not have resistances to the elements he wields, as God Serena let out an "UGH!", which he wouldn't of let out if it didn't effect him (if he had a resistance to the element, it wouldn't of hurt as much). Therefore, I think its a fair point that Serena does not have resistances to elements, and therefore would not resist Natsu's attacks or be able to eat them as the two go hand in hand. It would also mean God Serena would be in immense discomfort like Jacob when near Natsu in Flame Dragon King Mode.
3. Natsu has greater feats in Attack and Speed. Its a fact that God Serena had to use multiple spells to get the Gods of Ishgar down by both fighting them until they dropped the first time and then fending off their second wind by using Dragon Slayer magic to finally defeat them. This means he had to use numerous attacks to defeat opponents who are weaker than the members of the Spriggan 12. In contrast, Natsu in a fight with a member of the Spriggan 12, finished the Spriggan (Jacob) with one attack when he finally fought seriously, and its worth noting that Jacob hadn't taken a lot of damage beforehand, meaning Natsu's attack there the one that dealt a huge majority of the damage needed to take Jacob out. This puts Natsu's potential offence at a greater level than what we saw from God Serena, and while the attack that defeated Jacob was dealt in Flame Dragon King Mode, Natsu has an even stronger mode to use which would help him deal even more damage in this fight: Dragon Force.
On the point of Dragon Force, Natsu's speed increases drastically when he uses it, being able to out-speed Etherious Mard Geer and Jellal using Meteor, which is a very impressive feat. On God Serena's side, he has no feats for speed other than being slow to react to the attacks from the Gods of Ishgal before he defeated them. With greater attack and speed and with God Serena's slow reaction speeds, its easy for Natsu to catch Serena off-guard with a barrage of attacks, and if he can string together some Flame Dragon King attacks (even if its only two or three) in a combination of attacks, God Serena will take a lot of damage from them. Natsu's Flame Dragon King's Demolition Fist (the spell that destroyed the war god Ikatsunagi and dealt a frack tonne of damage to Jacob which defeated him) is far stronger than what the Gods of Ishgal threw at Serena, thus Serena's defense may not be able to hold out for long.
4. Natsu has had a better showing when it comes to hand to hand combat. Now Natsu is definitely the stronger of the two when it comes to Hand to Hand combat as Serena has shown nothing to with it and he has slow reaction speeds, which isn't helpful in a fight like this that will be predominately a Close Quarters Combat type of fight. With the ability to string a variety of attacks together with ease, the better reaction feats and greater speed and power, Natsu overwhelms God Serena here putting Natsu at an advantage for the fight. If Natsu can use even two Flame Dragon King spells in quick succession at the end of a combo, and in Flame Dragon King Mode / Dragon Force, then God Serena would be left reeling from the attacks which are a lot stronger than anything the Gods of Ishgal threw at Serena, and it would put Serena into the position of being close to dropping.
Conclusion: This battle will be a cqc slugfest, ultimately with whoever can deal more damage to the other coming out as the victor. With Natsu being the better cqc fighter and having better attack power and speed, God Serena is in a difficult position to win this fight. And with Natsu being able to render Serena's known elemental attacks useless, I can see no other outcome than Natsu defeating God Serena. He may be pushed to using his strongest mode (Dragon Force), but at the end of the day Natsu comes out on top as God Serena has no way to deal damage to him or to counter what is thrown at him. Its as simple as that.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
[mod=SirSamuel016] And that is the end of discussion for this fight between God Serena and Natsu Dragneel. Voting will remain open until 12pm GMT on the 15th of June, 2016 [/mod]
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