Discussion Headon Mystery

TheBoss

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Ok, Simple the most mysterious and omnipotent being in the tower. He is the one that chooses all the regulars, he can teleport to all the floors of the tower, basically he is the caretaker of the whole tower.
The thing is:
Do you remember that he was the one that made possible Rachel betraying Baam, and even lent Akryung to her to act as a guard?
So... That connect him with the whole "We need a irregular to kill Zahard" plan, as we all know that Yu Han Sung knew about rachel and her plan since the beginning of the 2nd's floor test.
If that is true, then what could possible be his connection with FUG? it just dont seems something that someone that wants good for the tower would do. Does that mean that the real Threat to the tower is Zahard himself?
What Do you guys think that he is the mastermind behind all this, he is just a pawn, or he simply dont have nothing to do with it?
 

shaheer

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well the most omnipotent is an exaggeration Phantaminum holds that title, being exis and all.
but i agree there is something that is off here, either he has a bigger plan which might be to destroy Fug totally with the help of baam while no one actually knows it and are playing into his hand or he miscalculated everything or he is in the plan to kill zahard, which is very strange
 

Franckie

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Evidently there is some unknown connection between Zahard and the Guardians. Furthermore, consider how Grace Mirchea Luslec, founder of FUG, had a following-out with Zahard during their ascension into the tower. These two signs suggest there is some nasty secret the government wants to keep hidden, and there isn't much Grace and Guardians can do because contracts, once established, cannot be voided. This may be where the author is heading when you also consider the rampant fear and persecution of Irregulars, beings not bound to the Tower's "laws" (one of which includes residents being unable to lift a finger against Zahard).

As Irregulars are the only ones who can kill Zahard and his supporters - like Phantaminum's rampage through Zahard's quarters (which occured for unknown reasons) - they are the only force that can force change to the Tower. Baam is necessary to achieve this goal because unlike the other known Irregulars, he is still naive, powerless, and manipulable.
 

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Evidently there is some unknown connection between Zahard and the Guardians. Furthermore, consider how Grace Mirchea Luslec, founder of FUG, had a following-out with Zahard during their ascension into the tower. These two signs suggest there is some nasty secret the government wants to keep hidden, and there isn't much Grace and Guardians can do because contracts, once established, cannot be voided. This may be where the author is heading when you also consider the rampant fear and persecution of Irregulars, beings not bound to the Tower's "laws" (one of which includes residents being unable to lift a finger against Zahard).

As Irregulars are the only ones who can kill Zahard and his supporters - like Phantaminum's rampage through Zahard's quarters (which occured for unknown reasons) - they are the only force that can force change to the Tower. Baam is necessary to achieve this goal because unlike the other known Irregulars, he is still naive, powerless, and manipulable.
Sure, but isnt Zahard and his kingdom still conquering new floors? How could those guardians be bound by contract too? Headon doesnt seem so naive as to commit such error and then letting some extremists fix it.
But I could be overthinking :hee
 
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Otters11

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Read it from start again. The kind is at the top. ~ Don't recall who assigns ranks... Is that the kind too? Anyone?

What is mysterious about the Guardians & the King?


Phantomex is very cool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantomex
He does a lot of things and then just disappears.
 

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Wow this thread is really old LOL.

Was gonna make my own but this popped up so figured I'd post here.

What do you think about Headon, and maybe other admins, having Guide-like powers? Obviously Headon has more free reign as he can go about the tower seemingly as he chooses. He seems to know where to be and with HwaRyun precision talks the person into becoming a Regular or talks a Ranker into giving up the Black March :cheez

Of course Evan, a guide, saw the path Baam needed to win, who is to say Headon couldn't see the same path even earlier than Evan.

Last question: do other admins have guide power (albeit limited to the floor they exist on) and do any Family Heads or High Rankers have any kind of guide ability outside of the Witch & Dwarf groups?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
By the way I'm re-reading ToG and noticed that Headon can talk to Baam before Baam gets his pocket. So Headon knows whatever outside language Baam uses. Dunno what that means exactly.
 

syx

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By the way I'm re-reading ToG and noticed that Headon can talk to Baam before Baam gets his pocket. So Headon knows whatever outside language Baam uses. Dunno what that means exactly.
That's not strange to me. Zahard and the 10 Great Warriors have been in the Tower for possibly thousands of years. Plenty of time for those "allmighty" Guardians to learn the language of the outside world. Considering that Zahard may not even be the first Irregular and the fact that the Workshop also exists in the outside world - thus there is some form of connection between those two worlds - it's within the realms of possibility that Headon just learnt it.
 

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Guardians are like gods, this is not really surprising. Headon is at the first floor so it is even more important for him.

I don't think Guardians have Guide-like powers, but Headon must have talked with Guides and is using what he knows for his plans.
 

kkck

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I never thought about guardians having guide like powers. We really have way too little information. However there should at least be a link between guide powers and administrators. We know for a fact that guide abilities don't work in the floor of death and to the best of our knowledge that is because the administrator is dead. So a link there is evident. Now, the big question is whether administrators have such powers. The only reference to that would be the red thryssa which clearly did not have such powers, we saw hell joe's thought process during his confrontation with many people and never so much as hinted at paths. The only consideration to make there is that the red thrysa is but a scrap of the former admin so naturally it wouldn't be quite as powerful hence it is not a stretch that even if it had such an ability it was simply lost to him given his status as vermin.

Now, the link between guides and administrators is still clear given guide's inability to guide at the floor of death. So if administrators can't use guide abilities it means they somehow are related to guides having an ability they themselves do not have. IF guide powers are contract related then it means administrators can make contracts to give abilities they do not have... If it is not contract related then.... Fuck, wouldn't that be weird? It feels like that would be one of the biggest mysteries in the series... because the implications of such a thing would be too huge. I mean, guides would get their guide abilities from administrators presence but it wouldn't be given by administrators themselves.
 

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I never thought about guardians having guide like powers. We really have way too little information. However there should at least be a link between guide powers and administrators. We know for a fact that guide abilities don't work in the floor of death and to the best of our knowledge that is because the administrator is dead. So a link there is evident. Now, the big question is whether administrators have such powers. The only reference to that would be the red thryssa which clearly did not have such powers, we saw hell joe's thought process during his confrontation with many people and never so much as hinted at paths. The only consideration to make there is that the red thrysa is but a scrap of the former admin so naturally it wouldn't be quite as powerful hence it is not a stretch that even if it had such an ability it was simply lost to him given his status as vermin.

Now, the link between guides and administrators is still clear given guide's inability to guide at the floor of death. So if administrators can't use guide abilities it means they somehow are related to guides having an ability they themselves do not have. IF guide powers are contract related then it means administrators can make contracts to give abilities they do not have... If it is not contract related then.... Fuck, wouldn't that be weird? It feels like that would be one of the biggest mysteries in the series... because the implications of such a thing would be too huge. I mean, guides would get their guide abilities from administrators presence but it wouldn't be given by administrators themselves.
Lol yeah guide is almost a Deus Ex Machina ability, almost.

I would say that the Red Thryssa had a limited control over shinsoo, certainly not over the entire FOD. As such he couldn't read the flow of shinsoo over the floor, which I assume is how guides can see different paths.

Also, it seems that a guide position is race-based, as we've only seen silver dwarfs and red witches. That doesn't mean that those two families don't have their own special contracts

One piece of evidence for Admins having guide abilites is when Evan indicated that Yuri being involved up until the Black March was retrieved was a part of the Administrator's test, but their role ended there. Seems to me the Admin had some predictive ability.
 

kkck

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Lol yeah guide is almost a Deus Ex Machina ability, almost.

I would say that the Red Thryssa had a limited control over shinsoo, certainly not over the entire FOD. As such he couldn't read the flow of shinsoo over the floor, which I assume is how guides can see different paths.

Also, it seems that a guide position is race-based, as we've only seen silver dwarfs and red witches. That doesn't mean that those two families don't have their own special contracts

One piece of evidence for Admins having guide abilites is when Evan indicated that Yuri being involved up until the Black March was retrieved was a part of the Administrator's test, but their role ended there. Seems to me the Admin had some predictive ability.
Guiding working via shinsoo reading would be odd IMO. Shinsoo reading is something that as far as I can tell can be learned meaning that people with sufficient skill could potentially acquire this. Besides,guides don't see the paths across that wide areas. Well, what we have seen from ryun and evan is them noticing paths right ahead of them. So shinsoo is necessary but there is more to it.

Looking at the wikia, I think there might be something to the idea of administrators having some measure of predictive ability as you suggest. Here is my reasoning: According to the wikia guides are basically like GPS for the tower. I am thinking that he meant that more literally than what would be suggested. GPS work by being connected to a satellite from which it gets directions and whatnot. I am thinking guides do have satellites spread across the tower, those would be administrators. But administrators are not just seeing into the future, rather the situation is that they are really smart. So they have full control over shinsoo in their floors which means they have control over literally everything in the floor since the floor is made out of shinsoo. So administrators using their enhanced perception and sheer brainpower along with their ability to sense the entirety of shinsoo of their floor essentially makes them able to make remarkably educated "guesses" which they convey to guides as paths. In context with what I suggested earlier, it is not merely about following the flow of shinsoo but rather having the entirety of the attributes an administrator has. Of course, if this is the case then perhap guiding actually is something that can be learned. By someone whose perception and control of shinsoo along with his intellect matches or surpasses administrators.
 

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Guiding working via shinsoo reading would be odd IMO. Shinsoo reading is something that as far as I can tell can be learned meaning that people with sufficient skill could potentially acquire this. Besides,guides don't see the paths across that wide areas. Well, what we have seen from ryun and evan is them noticing paths right ahead of them. So shinsoo is necessary but there is more to it.

Looking at the wikia, I think there might be something to the idea of administrators having some measure of predictive ability as you suggest. Here is my reasoning: According to the wikia guides are basically like GPS for the tower. I am thinking that he meant that more literally than what would be suggested. GPS work by being connected to a satellite from which it gets directions and whatnot. I am thinking guides do have satellites spread across the tower, those would be administrators. But administrators are not just seeing into the future, rather the situation is that they are really smart. So they have full control over shinsoo in their floors which means they have control over literally everything in the floor since the floor is made out of shinsoo. So administrators using their enhanced perception and sheer brainpower along with their ability to sense the entirety of shinsoo of their floor essentially makes them able to make remarkably educated "guesses" which they convey to guides as paths. In context with what I suggested earlier, it is not merely about following the flow of shinsoo but rather having the entirety of the attributes an administrator has. Of course, if this is the case then perhap guiding actually is something that can be learned. By someone whose perception and control of shinsoo along with his intellect matches or surpasses administrators.
I think your ideas are correct except for one thing: a guide position can't be learned. It's like saying that you know all the math, and the biology that allows a bird to fly. But a person still can't take flight on their own. A man can know about carrying babies in humans and about how male sea horses do it... but human men still can't.

It kind of goes with the Lauroe argument that you need talent. Although we have seen some cases where residents in the tower have been artificially enhanced, like Cassino, so it's possible that an artificial guide could be created.
 
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kkck

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I think your ideas are correct except for one thing: a guide position can't be learned. It's like saying that you know all the math, and the biology that allows a bird to fly. But a person still can't take flight on their own. A man can know about carrying babies in humans and about how male sea horses do it... but human men still can't.

It kind of goes with the Lauroe argument that you need talent. Although we have seen some cases where residents in the tower have been artificially enhanced, like Cassino, so it's possible that an artificial guide could be created.
Well, in that case you are talking about biological impossibilities. However in this context I am referring to shinsoo control. Which people can get and learn. I also point out there are other factor here beyond that, mainly having the sheer brainpower to pull this off. Basically you can learn how to guide assuming you have perception and shinsoo control comparable to that of an administrator. Now, we know there are humans whose shinsoo control is comparable or even exceeds administrator. The big question, assuming I am correct, is whether there are humans whose intellect and perfection matches or surpasses administrators.
 

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Well, in that case you are talking about biological impossibilities. However in this context I am referring to shinsoo control. Which people can get and learn. I also point out there are other factor here beyond that, mainly having the sheer brainpower to pull this off. Basically you can learn how to guide assuming you have perception and shinsoo control comparable to that of an administrator. Now, we know there are humans whose shinsoo control is comparable or even exceeds administrator. The big question, assuming I am correct, is whether there are humans whose intellect and perfection matches or surpasses administrators.
For all we know Red Witches and Silver Dwarfs have a biological (or ToG equivalent) for being guides.

Though if the intellect thing is correct, and Koon is starting to read things the way HwaRyun is, maybe it's possible. He was always crafty, but maybe that's his ticket to keeping pace with Baam.

Ok that was a little off topic. Still, I don't think brainpower or smarts is necessarily it- I mean the 43rd admin made some pretty dumb mistakes. At least as far as is told in the account of history we know.
 

kkck

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For all we know Red Witches and Silver Dwarfs have a biological (or ToG equivalent) for being guides.

Though if the intellect thing is correct, and Koon is starting to read things the way HwaRyun is, maybe it's possible. He was always crafty, but maybe that's his ticket to keeping pace with Baam.

Ok that was a little off topic. Still, I don't think brainpower or smarts is necessarily it- I mean the 43rd admin made some pretty dumb mistakes. At least as far as is told in the account of history we know.
What? I never suggested koon was doing anything of the sort. And even if he was, it wouldn't help him keep pace with baam anymore than it helps hwa ryun to do that...

We never saw the 43rd admin do dumb mistakes. We saw the red thrysa, leftovers from the admin, behave like a dumbass. We know the 43rd admin fought enryu but that wasn't necessarily in itself stupid.
 

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I noticed something on a recent re-read.


Notice that Headon is floating inside the crack of the door to the Tower. Given that we can’t really see the scene we can’t know for sure, but since most Tower doors would open in (thus being more secure) I would guess that Headon slipped outside the Tower door to usher Rachel and then Bam inside. Strange then that he is able to leave the Tower into whatever the Cave space is.
 

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Those are bam and rachel. You can see bam and the light from the door beneath them.
 

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You are right. Well it just looked a little too much like Headon to me :blink

Interesting then that the door of the Tower opened through the ground. I wonder if it is fixed to that particular spot or not.
 

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Are we certain on whether Guardians an even leave the Tower proper? I know Headon can travel anywhere within the Tower he wants, but would he even be capable of exiting that door?
 

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Are we certain on whether Guardians an even leave the Tower proper? I know Headon can travel anywhere within the Tower he wants, but would he even be capable of exiting that door?
No there is no other evidence for this. That’s why I thought that one panel was really interesting. It’s too bad it looks a little too much like Headon, but as they pointed out it’s not.
 
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