Discussion How enchantment works and why August is unable to copy it

Verter

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Yes it is. We need to know more information to judge. Either way, it doesn't really matter as all those are irrelevant to the point of discussion, which is August's copy limits. If the source of magic was the user, August copies. If it was the magical object, then not. As simple as that.
Dragon seeds are a SIDE-EFFECT of DS magic, not a necessity. Natsu doesn't have the seed anymore, yet still use DS magic.

What has forbidden arts got to do with anything? Yeah, they're caster magic too and August can copy them. What's the point?
Zeref's demons are summons, whose existence in Earthland is tied to the contract written in their books. August can't summon them because the books are the equivalent of keys for celestial spirits.

Not sure why you are bringing up any of these magics. They serve no real purpose. If your point was to show that not all holder magic are from magical objects, I don't think these examples proved them.

Wrong about Jellol again, anime or manga. Acno gets pushed back by Jellol's magic in anime as well:

There is no mistake by Mashima at all. Acnologia is pushed by the force of magic, it doesn't matter if the magical component of the spell is nearly ineffective due to close to 100% magic resist, the force still remains.
I don't like my colleagues position about philosophy and science (as West and East /China, Japan/ have philosophy and science; India does not have). But with your or Kurumi posts I get something similar like it.

Key words are revelation (discovery) <-> evidence (proof) here.

Your posts consists by pure prescriptions ("recipes") which don't prove a shit. Your posts like etalon example of positions some guys with whom position I don't agree.

Since Ancient Greece (West) or Xia dynasty (East) you have to /must/ give evidence to your statement.

You made position (and you did not even call it as "theory", you said its - "reality"). I gave you some examples - which basically go against your position, so your position should be recognised as "defected" and "wrong".

It's law of noncontradiction (it's one from 3 laws of classical logic).

***

Now, let's talk about "new" from your examples.

Some guys here (include you) put August ability to absurd (I don't call it sophistic, because I highly doubt ppl like Kurumi, Loke even know that word nor that "process" / "way").
Some ppl stated here "August can copy everyone {caster] magic". Ok.

1. Even with holder-type magic - Cana casts (chants) spell like summon cards / attack etc.

With your position, why August is unable to undo her commands (chants) to cards, why, why (2) ?

2. I don't agree about "side-effect", it's core for dragonification process.



Manga said that "dragonification" / dragon scales is caused by dragon seed.
And how Natsu is able to enter dragon mode, if he does not have dragon seed anymore ?!
Similar thing should be applied for demon seed as well.

But what said Aldoron?


You're dragon child and demon.

If we get Irene explanation


We can assume that both seeds are restored in Natsu body, but currently at stable status.
There's no DS or DeS mage w.o. dragon seed.
Irene did not get full info nor got full Belserion help in her case due reason that Berserion had died at battle.
With "interrogation" with Wendy, Irene noticed the way to "freeze" process of dragonification.
Irene used that skill on Nebal and said herself "meh, if I did that 400 years before on myself".

@Axiomus is correctly noticed that DS magic (so DeS magic) is enchantment itself. And as it's enchantment on body of slayer - it can not be copied.

3. I use "by contradiction" rule.

You said Natsu does not have anymore dragon seed. In same time you should also say there's not anymore Book of E.N.D.
You said "Zeref's demons are summons, whose existence in Earthland is tied to the contract written in their books."
Natsu is also his demon. Why he did not dissapear ?

The reason is explained in manga.
Zeref demons ARE NOT even near similar with Lucy spirits.
Lucy spirits exist "as are". They don't disappear from universe with terminating their key. Then someone create/get another key for broken one, that one should be able to make contract and summon that spirit again.

Zeref spirits are created by Zeref via magic. He is their "father". They did not exist before Zeref. The reason why Natsu did not disappear is easy. The book was not terminated, it was just re-written in some pages by Lucy. It disappeared, but still exist.
Yes, "books" are real thing why August is unable to copy then, But it does not change a fact - living magic is caster magic,
So, there's caster magic which August can not copy.

(4). In anime - Acno dodged Jellal attack, in manga he was pushed. Look carefully.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I think you confused Lost/Ancient Magic being a Holder Type because of this definition of Kain’s magic. Though it’s true that Kain’s magic is a holder type,it just so happen that his magic is a Lost Magic which has been forgotten throughout the years. The rest of the 7 kin are caster types and they all use Lost Magic.

Enchantment is a caster type just like what everyone here are saying.
No, no =)

I said it in another thread:
manga said there're 3 types of magic
- Caster
- Holder
- Ancient

Just by that statement one may make a suggestion "ancient" is not truly "caster" or "holder".
If check FT wikia, they classify Ancient magic on "caster" and "holder" as well.
 
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Axiomus

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This isnt complicated. Magic can either be caster or holder. Caster magic is when the magic comes from the body. Holder magic is when the magic comes from an item. August can copy the former and not the latter.

Ancient spells are just magic from 400 years ago. Lost magics are just magic from 400 years ago that have been considered to have dissappeared from common use. Being an ancient spell/lost magic does not exclude something from being caster or holder.

You dont need a dragon seed to use dragon slaying magic. A seed will spawn if you use too much dragon slaying magic and have darkness in you heart, but it isnt neccesary to use dragon slaying magic. Most dragon slayers never reach a point where they dragonize.
 

grey matter

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I don't like my colleagues position about philosophy and science (as West and East /China, Japan/ have philosophy and science; India does not have). But with your or Kurumi posts I get something similar like it.

Key words are revelation (discovery) <-> evidence (proof) here.

Your posts consists by pure prescriptions ("recipes") which don't prove a shit. Your posts like etalon example of positions some guys with whom position I don't agree.

Since Ancient Greece (West) or Xia dynasty (East) you have to /must/ give evidence to your statement.

You made position (and you did not even call it as "theory", you said its - "reality"). I gave you some examples - which basically go against your position, so your position should be recognised as "defected" and "wrong".

It's law of noncontradiction (it's one from 3 laws of classical logic).

***

Now, let's talk about "new" from your examples.

Some guys here (include you) put August ability to absurd (I don't call it sophistic, because I highly doubt ppl like Kurumi, Loke even know that word nor that "process" / "way").
Some ppl stated here "August can copy everyone {caster] magic". Ok.

1. Even with holder-type magic - Cana casts (chants) spell like summon cards / attack etc.

With your position, why August is unable to undo her commands (chants) to cards, why, why (2) ?

2. I don't agree about "side-effect", it's core for dragonification process.



Manga said that "dragonification" / dragon scales is caused by dragon seed.
And how Natsu is able to enter dragon mode, if he does not have dragon seed anymore ?!
Similar thing should be applied for demon seed as well.

But what said Aldoron?


You're dragon child and demon.

If we get Irene explanation


We can assume that both seeds are restored in Natsu body, but currently at stable status.
There's no DS or DeS mage w.o. dragon seed.
Irene did not get full info nor got full Belserion help in her case due reason that Berserion had died at battle.
With "interrogation" with Wendy, Irene noticed the way to "freeze" process of dragonification.
Irene used that skill on Nebal and said herself "meh, if I did that 400 years before on myself".

@Axiomus is correctly noticed that DS magic (so DeS magic) is enchantment itself. And as it's enchantment on body of slayer - it can not be copied.

3. I use "by contradiction" rule.

You said Natsu does not have anymore dragon seed. In same time you should also say there's not anymore Book of E.N.D.
You said "Zeref's demons are summons, whose existence in Earthland is tied to the contract written in their books."
Natsu is also his demon. Why he did not dissapear ?

The reason is explained in manga.
Zeref demons ARE NOT even near similar with Lucy spirits.
Lucy spirits exist "as are". They don't disappear from universe with terminating their key. Then someone create/get another key for broken one, that one should be able to make contract and summon that spirit again.

Zeref spirits are created by Zeref via magic. He is their "father". They did not exist before Zeref. The reason why Natsu did not disappear is easy. The book was not terminated, it was just re-written in some pages by Lucy. It disappeared, but still exist.
Yes, "books" are real thing why August is unable to copy then, But it does not change a fact - living magic is caster magic,
So, there's caster magic which August can not copy.

(4). In anime - Acno dodged Jellal attack, in manga he was pushed. Look carefully.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



No, no =)

I said it in another thread:
manga said there're 3 types of magic
- Caster
- Holder
- Ancient

Just by that statement one may make a suggestion "ancient" is not truly "caster" or "holder".
If check FT wikia, they classify Ancient magic on "caster" and "holder" as well.
Too long to respond. You're just going from one nonsense to another for something so simple.

Jellol clearly pushed back Acnologia in the anime as well. Check 1:42 - 1:48 You're either blind or being dishonest
 

Verter

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Too long to respond. You're just going from one nonsense to another for something so simple.
You just don't have anything to say against. Actually.

Jellol clearly pushed back Acnologia in the anime as well. Check 1:42 - 1:48 You're either blind or being dishonest
I thought you said about his attack before it.
Yes. it's my mistake. He actually pushed him in anime too. I agree.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Most dragon slayers never reach a point where they dragonize.
In main serie we've only 10 DS (7+Acno+Serena+Irene). And all of them had seed and/or lacrima,

About which "majority" you said ? Who lived 400 years ago?
But it's possible to say they were "fake", not true one, 'coz they died in process of using that magic.
 

grey matter

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You just don't have anything to say against. Actually.



I thought you said about his attack before it.
Yes. it's my mistake. He actually pushed him in anime too. I agree.
Not really. I address one or two examples you bring, and you keep bringing more. I can't keep doing this forever.

Yes, which proves my point. You can push back Acno with magic, it's just that magical damage won't take place due to Acno having near 100% magic resistance, but the force of the spell still persists.
 

Axiomus

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In main serie we've only 10 DS (7+Acno+Serena+Irene). And all of them had seed and/or lacrima,

About which "majority" you said ? Who lived 400 years ago?
But it's possible to say they were "fake", not true one, 'coz they died in process of using that magic.
Again, the seed isn't necessary to use dragon slaying magic. Natsu's seed is broken, and he's still using dragon slaying magic.

They dragon slayers 400 years ago were good enough to fight a war. We didn't have an army of people turning into dragons.
 

Verter

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Again, the seed isn't necessary to use dragon slaying magic. Natsu's seed is broken, and he's still using dragon slaying magic.
Dragon force is impossible for someone who does not have dragon seed


+


Because Dragon Force is ability when you transforms (partially - temporal or fully - permanent) into dragon. If you transformed into fully dragon (cross point "X"), you can not undo it with your magic (Acnologia, Irene).

Current Natsu uses DF.

Furthermore current Natsu also is described as Demon. With guys logic Natsu should not have demon seed as well.
Big question in that case (with some guys position), why Aldoron says "mere human like you... no, you're not a human, you're dragon and demon"
 
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Kurumi Tokisaki

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Dragon force is impossible for someone who does not have dragon seed
Natsu used Dragon Force on FH Zeref just while after his seeds broke. Don't know why you bothered posting something way beyond this event to prove your point.
 

Verter

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Natsu used Dragon Force on FH Zeref just while after his seeds broke. Don't know why you bothered posting something way beyond this event to prove your point.
It may have stabilised to that moment.

N.B. Because dragon force = dragonification. Dragonification demans dragon seed. It's simple.
 

Kurumi Tokisaki

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It may have stabilised to that moment.
Ya, it sure did stabilize very fast for your convenience when it crumbled to dust a few chapters earlier. Dragon Seed is what causes to DS to become a dragon. It's not the source of their power.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

N.B. Because dragon force = dragonification. Dragonification demans dragon seed. It's simple.
HeadCanon
 

Verter

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It don't see how with what you posted.
With manga I linked.

Dragon slayer magic IS NOT magic for normal human, but for human with dragon "particles" in his/her body (= dragon seed).
If it wasn't so, when it could not self-activate with Eatherion or Flame of Rebuke.
 

Kurumi Tokisaki

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Dragon slayer magic IS NOT magic for normal human, but for human with dragon "particles" in his/her body (= dragon seed).
If it wasn't so, when it could not self-activate with Eatherion on Flame of Rebuke.
How does this prove the Dragon Force == Dragnification or Dragon Seed == Power Source of DS.

Irene never said Dragon Seed was the power source of a DS. She just said dragon seeds sprout within their bodies which eventually turn them into dragons when she was explaining the drawbacks of DS magic.





 

Axiomus

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Dragon Force does dragonize you, but it's temporary. The effects of the dragon seed, however, are not. Again, Natsu can use DF. He broke his seeds. Besides, August doesn't have to have dragon force in order to have dragon slaying magic.
 

kenedyfake

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If the magic is used on Irene's staff, August cannot copy. Just as you can't copy a spell cast by Gildartz's mechanical arm, or magic on Erza swords. Irene's swords ( Juliet and Hyne ) cannot be copied either. all Irene needs to do is enchant her own staff with magic and use the magic from it, not much of a secret. And August is not immune to magic that is cast by objects.
 

Axiomus

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If the magic is used on Irene's staff, August cannot copy. Just as you can't copy a spell cast by Gildartz's mechanical arm, or magic on Erza swords. Irene's swords ( Juliet and Hyne ) cannot be copied either. all Irene needs to do is enchant her own staff with magic and use the magic from it, not much of a secret. And August is not immune to magic that is cast by objects.
Sure. But the magic has to be enchanted on to the staff itself in a similar way to Erza's swords. If Irene is just holding a staff in her hands while she is casting her enchantments, August can still copy it. And correct, August cannot copy Juliet and Heines. That would require swords. Though I'm not sure why he would want to in the first place.
 

kenedyfake

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Sure. But the magic has to be enchanted on to the staff itself in a similar way to Erza's swords. If Irene is just holding a staff in her hands while she is casting her enchantments, August can still copy it. And correct, August cannot copy Juliet and Heines. That would require swords. Though I'm not sure why he would want to in the first place.
Well, that's what I said. She would enchant her own staff with some magic and could fight based on that, alternating enchants on that object, ex: enchant a wind magic on the staff and then use it via staff and so on. I'm not going into combat issues, if it would beat Algust or not, I gave examples of how magic works and how to counter the Hax. Irene is fully capable of fighting enchanting her staff. And she is a master at it, even creating living beings like Hayne and Juliet.
 
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