Politics Israel and Palestine : A Never-ending drama

[asmo]

The US are an ally of Israel, but they also want this problem to be solved (who doesn't exept the fanatics?). That's why they put pressure on both sides. I agree that this is a matter that has to be solved by Israelis and Palestinians, but let's be honest: It can't be done without the support of the USA (and maybe the EU), because that's where all the money for both sides comes from. The amount of money literally being pumped into this region by the West is simply gigantic. The Palestinian government for example isn't able to survive without European money. That's why the tensions in Gaza are rising right now, no money for nothing, especially not for civil servants due to the election of Hamas. If you ask me it's useless to give money since a huge part of it will always disappear into some dark channels where it's being used for terrorist purposes.

I don't want to be overly pessimistic but all peace talks so far have proved to be useless. As soon as there was a sign that the two fractions were getting closer some terrorist group blew up a school bus with lots of children in it so the talks would come to an end.

What can we do? Keep out of this conflict. It's not our job.

 

[Leen]

Keeping out of the conflict from solve the problem. Being too busybody isn't a good solution as well. Most importantly is still the younger generations. So long younger generations can learn to forgive and forget, to love one another, it will be solved one day. I felt so bad to have to listen to the same thing for the past 8 years of my life ever since I learned how to read. A lot of people dont even have a chance to read, they just got bombed. It's a sad thing. I believe no one want to see it happen anymore but is there something we can do? Maybe not, but there is no harm in trying to get people to join hands together regardless of colour and creed for a better tomorrow.

 

[Gold Knight]

As long as one party or the other believe that they have the right to the land, I don't believe this will ever end until there is a clear victor. When passions run so deep that the fighting go on that many generations...

I agree that this is something other countries (including the U.S.) need to just keep out of as far as the fighting and not take a side, because both sides are just asking for the fighting to continue until one side surrenders. The part I would like to focus on is helping people and families who want nothing to do with the conflict be able to get out of the gunfire if possible - children shouldn't grow up constantly at risk of getting shot or bombed. I'd like to see families have a choice of either leaving and living in another country, or staying in the warzone and taking their chances.

It's never a bad idea to pursue peace but this is one case that's definitely looking to be futile.

 

[enzomars]

Want a proof of Conspiracy ? Look what happened to Palestine.

I'll put it in other words. Image ( in the US ) Mexican imigrants buying land ( let say ) in Nebraska .
* After 50 years they managed to acquire 30% of the land in Nebraska.
* They built up a micro economy independant from the US (own agriculture and industry )
* now they start gathering more and more powerfull weapons so they can " defend " themselves from rednecks bandits. * After that they claim that Nebraska is now "Neo Chicapaca" because 600 years ago their ancestors lived there and now they have the right to claim that Land as their own new country.
* Now the US is fighting with those ex-imigrants to get Nebraska back , but Neochicapacan got way more powerfull weapons than the US now.

Anyway that's how i understand it but instead of
US put Palestine
Mexican imigrants put Jewish settlers
Neo Chicapaca put Izrael
600 years ago put 3000 years ago

Very dangerous topic ... but i'll have to say where i see the conspiracy.
The jews knew from the beginning ( 1880 ) when they start buying land in Palestine , what they were up to.
They wanted anough land to make a country. It took them 70 years but they finally did it ( in 1945 ) Jews owned
30% of Palestinian land.
But what we all forgot is that ... even if you buy lands in a country , you don't own that land (technically ) bcause you
have to pay taxes for that land ( i don't know how it is in the US but in my country it's like that ) so you technically don't own that land to the point of claiming it is your country.

And that crap about ancestors living there 2000 years ago? West Poland once belonged to Germany ,
West Ukraine once belonged to Poland , Alsace once belonged to Germany , The US once belonged to the Native americans ( Indians ?),
Australia once belonged to the boomrang throwers (aborygenes?).... so what. That was years ago. But the Israel-Palestine conflict started 56 years ago ( + -)
and we know who is historically wrong ... but we live in a different time , and we're too kind to say you're wrong get the
hell out of there , that's why we want them to compromise :-)

Finding who's wrong was kinda easy ... but finding a solution is way more difficult.


That's my point of view and i'm from Europe. I'm open to other explanation of this problem
But for now that's how i understand it.

 

[asmo]

@ enzomars: Maybe you want to join up with Ahmadinejad. He seems to quite fond of conspiracy theories without any foundation ^^

a very enlightening read: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html

No matter how much historians dig up, there will always be people who refuse to learn :P

 

[enzomars]

Hehe nice interview. The man has a confused mind , it was hard to follow him in the begining of the interview. But i have to admit that he has sometimes an interesting point of view.

But back to that conspiracy thing .. i'm not a fan but how do you call what happened in Palestine? I mean buying lands for over 50 years and finally declaring those lands , a new country. Sorry but to me it looks as if it was planed. And we know it was:

Look for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism God sorry but that's sick!

"3200 years ago" ???? how can we even think about justifying such a thing?

Don't get me wrong i'm not racist ( i cannot be in fact ^^ ) i have nothing against anybody. It's just that in the light of 120 years of historic truth i see that Israel is wrong! So if someone knows something i don't know
( beside that "3200 years ago" crap ) please tell me :-)

ps: that whole truth was 50 years old when Israel was proclaimed, and nobody did anything. So if in 1960 the "Natives Americans" kicked out the neoamericans from the US today that would've been justify ? Or maybe do they have to wait another 2600 years before that ,cause it've been only 600 years :-)

 

[asmo]

You have to see this in context. Israel was also created by the United Nations in order to give the Jews their own country after the Holocaust. It was clear that it had to be in Israel/Palestine. The UN proposed a solution where both Jews and Arabs (there was no Palestinian people back then, all of them were either egyptian citizens or stateless) would have their own states in Palestine. However, the Arab countries didn't agree and decided to go to war. They wanted to destroy the tiny Jewish state right away and attacked it from all sides. Stupid Idea.
Despite their superior numbers they lost quite badly. What you see now on the map is also the direct result of Arab aggression. They could have gotten their own state, but they were too stupid to accept. You see, the situation is not as one-sided as you portray it.
Israel has a right to exist. The Palestianians also should have their own state. The two-state solution seems to be the most realistic option.
About the Wikipedia article: I would take everything written on Wikipedia with a few pounds of salt!

I think all people have a right to live in a country they can call their own - this is also true for the Kurds who happen to be divded among at least three countries.

 

[enzomars]

You have to see this in context. Israel was also created by the United Nations in order to give the Jews their own country after the Holocaust.

So far so good.

It was clear that it had to be in Israel/Palestine.

Don't see why it was clear. Ho now i see

The UN proposed a solution where both Jews and Arabs (there was no Palestinian people back then, all of them were either egyptian citizens or stateless) would have their own states in Palestine.

Does it means that nobody lived in that territory? It didn't belong to anybody.
Then who the Jews settlers where buying their land from?
I can't imagine people living there , not having a name ( cause you're telling me that
there was no such thing as Plestinians back there ) and not having any root to the bordering country. If they were arabs and they didn't call themselves Palestinians nor
inhabitants of that land, then they were Egyptian ,Jordanian or from Lebanon or even Syria. Then who are those stateless you're talking about?

They could have gotten their own state, but they were too stupid to accept.

If what you're telling is true about them being also stateless , i agree they were stupid.

I would take everything written on Wikipedia with a few pounds of salt!

Hehe right, but what i was pointing on was accurate and it was the first link i found in the net ( don't make me scan my encyclopedia ^^ ).

OK there's some few things i have to check up.

I agree with you that all people have a right to live in a country they can call their own.
And Judea is the most fited for the Jews ( historically talking of course ). And the Fellahin who lived there for centuries also deserved it.
I kinda like the UN partition of palestine from 1947.It was kinda 50/50
Too bad those 2 can't live together. My solution: let's force the partition of 1947 and monitor the borders. the first to start got NUKED hehe :-)

one is sneaky,vicious and smart the other is too proud, smtime not really smart but overall stubborn. guess who i'm talkin about?
Hey i made up a riddle ! (bad taste hum ?)

 

[conan]

what a touchy topic you started up eileen, well I am a palestinian originally, but I live in jordan,
being an arab and raised most of my life in arab schools, I think most of what enzomars said summarises what I studied in school in history, I am just going to say that a 50 and some year old conflict is not going to be solved in minutes nor in this forum but sometimes talking could help.

I can detail the summarized history that enzomars wrote (ofcourse its what I learned in school).

I just want to comment on what asmo said

You have to see this in context. Israel was also created by the United Nations in order to give the Jews their own country after the Holocaust. It was clear that it had to be in Israel/Palestine. The UN proposed a solution where both Jews and Arabs (there was no Palestinian people back then, all of them were either egyptian citizens or stateless) would have their own states in Palestine.

ofcourse the holocaust is a terrible event, but the arabs nor muslims had a hand in that, so I dont know why they should be kicked for it even thought the ottoman empire and the muslim arab countries recieved refugee jews who ran away keeping their religion instead of beong tortured or ill treated in europe, muslims and jews used to have good relations until this issue.

and the fact that no one lived there, I have been taught in school that that is totally untrue, I have been told by mother whos original village is in what is called the israeli state that that isnt true, and if that is true, how come there are so many refugee camps in neighbouring countries to palestine.
they all lived in the inner borders of israel, there is a refugee camp a couple of miles away from my house in jordan, the refugees do not own houses, they live on a rented land by the UN, so the buildings they live in do not even have ceilings, they are not allowed to have cailings by law since the houses nor the land are theirs, they can not work due to not having the needed papers for satying in a certain country,so they get a small paycheck from the UN at the end of each month which is barely enough for survival, I know becuase a lady from that refugee camp is a maid that comes every friday to clean our house, she needs the money.

I hope no one is offended, I just talked about my own observances and mentioned what I think is the most important thing in this whole issue, who are the refugees, that try hard every day to survive the next day.

 

[ruby_06]

What i know is that after the collapse of the Roman Empire, the area of palestine was ruled by muslim rulers and then after ww2, the british encourage the jewish immigration into the area. This immigration and the land purchases caused many problems between them (jews and palestines) and from since the war started and never ended and after britain backed up from supporting the immigration of the jews, the U.S began to support them.
So what should the world do ? i think we should not interfere as many countries interfered and nothing happened and i think the solution is in the hands of both sides to stop this massacres and that what both sides (i mean the people not the government) wants. so it is up to them. No offense to anyone ??!!!

 

[segua]

That area will never have ever-lasting peace. I see that the tension there will erupt into all out war leading to WWIII.

 

[Phatshady912]

That area will never have ever-lasting peace. I see that the tension there will erupt into all out war leading to WWIII.

That area will never have ever-lasting peace. I see that the tension there will erupt into all out war leading to WWIII.

Agreed.

It is pretty obvious that both countries are wrong. The world decided to give Israel their own land without thinking about the people who already lived there. Arab countries attacked the newly formed israel and lost because Israel had the support of the world. Since then on many occasions Israel has encroached further on Arab land, if left unchecked I have no doubt that Israel would take all of Palestine without a second thought.

Arab terrorists attack Israel because it is the only thing that they can really do. You know, besides give up the rest of their homeland. Anyone looking at this has to remeber that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. There are people all over the world wearing Che Guevara shirts right now, yet depending on who you ask he is a hero or a terrorist, same with Osama Bin Laden, same with Malcolm X.

Palestine doesn't have an army, so they have two choices. Fight back any way that they can (Terrorism). Or give up their land. Wait actually there is a third choice.... be exterminated.

For the people who said that the world should stay out of it... that may have been a viable solution 60 years ago. But now if the world were to turn a blind eye Israel would easily destroy Palestine. The U.S ships bombs to Isreal everyday.

Having an army doesn't make the actions of Israel any better then the actions of Palestine. Palestinians kill civilians with suicide bombs, Israel does it in an organized manner with tanks, machine guns and missles. Different approach same result.

I don't see any way for this to be resolved except a world war, and that war will hopefully wake up the entire world so peace can actually be reached afterwards. That or Mutually Assured Destruction where we all die. (Yay for nukes!)

 

[segua]

I love what you wrote.

Both countries are at fault but I'm sure they will hate idealist lol.

Muslims fanatics seems to have blurred the lines between suicide and martyrdom. Suicide bombs have been known to kill innocent people from both sides. Suicide is when you take your own life regardless. Martyrdom is when someone else takes your life because of you hold dear to a principle and resist change/comprimise.

As for Israel, if the world left them alone, I'm pretty sure the Israeli government will try to push for a genocidal program to elminate all Palestinians there though the current government may not hold the same views or beliefs as some of it's citizens.

 

[ruby_06]

What many countries dont know is that both the palestines and the people of israel haved lived for years with each others and they managed to live together and that they sell to palestines guns and weapons to fight and also yeah i agree that both are wrong, but what about the new situation and the killing of innocent people in lebanon espically children.
I believe that is the doing of the government and its army not the people themselves so what i think is that it is getting worse and yeah i also agree that there might be a WW3.

 

[Snaick]

Let me start this off by saying that this is just my opinion and that it isn't meant to offend anyone. I think that most of the wars in the world are caused over different religious beliefs.An example of this is the Israel-Palestine conflict. That is a conflict between the Islamic and the Jewish people. The same thing could be said about the USA war on terrorism. That, in my opinion is a conflict between Christianity and Islam. If poeple really want peace in this world thy should set aside their religious differences and then maybe a peaceful resolution could be reached. I am looking at this from a neutral point of view because my own country (South Africa) is not even involved in this war and i do not have a religion.

 

[Remus]

Well you guys and ladys now walk the right way. I have followed this debate for a long time now and I just want to throw in my few words.To talk about it you need to stay neutral in my case its appropriate because Im neither Muslim nor Christian Im an atheist studying everything in order so see what fits me best.
First of all : The USA is on the israelic side. If you watched the current news you will have noticed that the USA used their VETO right in the UN debate about nuclear weapon inspection in Israel. I wont tell you why thats up to you. If you want to know about it inform yourself. Now about the history part. Israel never belonged to the Jews to put it straight ! Its not Israel vs. Palestinian its Jews vs Muslim. I know that you people always tried to avoid that in this discussion but thats simply it. Its not making it better to not tell the truth. And now back to the history part. This country and even more(whole north of Africa,etc) always belonged to the Osmanian Empire. Its longing back till ancient times. In WWI it ended with the defeat of the Osmanian Empire at the gates of Austria and the 14 Points of US President Wilson who was a wise men and tried to bring justice to all those who suffered in WWI for example Belgium is still Belgium because of that. (For info study the history ^^. )
One of the 14 points said that every part of the area belonging to the Osmanian Empire is to be shared among the tribes. Now all tribes of the Osmanian Empire are Muslim. So you see the Jews never even where allowed to establish there. The Country always belonged to the Osmanian Empire this whole Jesus affair is very questionable because we have no evidences for whats said in the Bible nor have we evidences for whats standing in the Qoran.
So I stick to what is said in books and we come to the WWII where Jews where slaughtered because of the thoughts of a tyrant who thought that some people deserve more rights than others. Back then as someone said the Jews where encouraged to establish in the South because they were neither liked in the West nor in the East in other words France/England or Russia. Im not going into detail. Thats where it all started. They established in Israel and today we see whats going on. You can make you own opinion about it. This is the truth I havent invented anything of it. Now its up to you to judge who is responsible in YOUR opinion. Do it for yourself. Taking the opinion of someone else just because he has better arguments isnt really good. If you got some more questions about history feel free to ask me and if I can explain I will try my best to satisfy your hunger ^_^

 

[conan]

very good post remus, I am glad there is someone neutral and knows the history, but if you know the history well could tell me your opinion about the following, the end of the osmanian emperor and the western take over of the middle east that happened with sykes and pico, the english and french man made a treaty and carved what was the osmanian empire into tiny bits and pieces that are today called the middle east, the arab israeli wars and the establishement of israel.

I will trust you will use historical facts on this, if there is more than one historical view about this, I hope you would mention it, and thanks again for your post.

 

[Remus]

very good post remus, I am glad there is someone neutral and knows the history, but if you know the history well could tell me your opinion about the following, the end of the osmanian emperor and the western take over of the middle east that happened with sykes and pico, the english and french man made a treaty and carved what was the osmanian empire into tiny bits and pieces that are today called the middle east, the arab israeli wars and the establishement of israel.

I will trust you will use historical facts on this, if there is more than one historical view about this, I hope you would mention it, and thanks again for your post.

You get it right to the point, eh ? Well the crisis begins here as you already foreshadowed it. The control of a 3rd party in a country with 2 rivaling peoples. The Sykes-Picot-Agreement (the reason was to get arabic support against the osmanians) as you mentioned in my opinion started it. Its like colonies of the British empire. Sooner or later someone will question it or someone starts to think about it. The Russian Revolution in this point was the trigger when the secret agrreement was revealed and the arabs started to doubt the so called help of Great Britain and France. Other agreements were made and in the end the control more and more slipped out of the hand of the arabs because the European supporters created a jewish government under their control with the agreement that arabs are to keep their rights. But its very complicated on this point and I really dont want to get into detail because its no longer neutral. The thing you need to know is that the British government in the end lost control over the quickly growing jewish society in todays Israel and they drove the arabs away which had the same rights but werent allowed or supported when they wanted to return to what was their inhabitance. After WWII Great Britain turned away from past Palastina and Israel was founded under full jewish control. The UNO was supposed to distribute the country but after Great Britain left the jewish government no longer wanted their advice. Thats how it started. Im not that great of an analysis expert but thats a smal overview. Hope I got it in right chronological order. Corrections appreciated.

Hope thats what you wanted conan ^^

 

[conan]

yup thats all right to my knowledge and like you said its really hard to know what happened after Great Britain left the whole mess becuase it s hard to stay neutral, and really nasty stuff and really bad wars happened at that time, and if they open up the old files a bad smell is going to come out, which made the whole thing a thousand times worse, becuase if your not going to take reponsibility for your history and what you did, dont expect any quick solutions, and I am talking about both sides, any way thanks for clearing the history remus, you did a really good job.

 

[amar_kun]

Want a proof of Conspiracy ? Look what happened to Palestine.

I'll put it in other words. Image ( in the US ) Mexican imigrants buying land ( let say ) in Nebraska .
* After 50 years they managed to acquire 30% of the land in Nebraska.
* They built up a micro economy independant from the US (own agriculture and industry )
* now they start gathering more and more powerfull weapons so they can " defend " themselves from rednecks bandits. * After that they claim that Nebraska is now "Neo Chicapaca" because 600 years ago their ancestors lived there and now they have the right to claim that Land as their own new country.
* Now the US is fighting with those ex-imigrants to get Nebraska back , but Neochicapacan got way more powerfull weapons than the US now.

Anyway that's how i understand it but instead of
US put Palestine
Mexican imigrants put Jewish settlers
Neo Chicapaca put Izrael
600 years ago put 3000 years ago

Very dangerous topic ... but i'll have to say where i see the conspiracy.
The jews knew from the beginning ( 1880 ) when they start buying land in Palestine , what they were up to.
They wanted anough land to make a country. It took them 70 years but they finally did it ( in 1945 ) Jews owned
30% of Palestinian land.
But what we all forgot is that ... even if you buy lands in a country , you don't own that land (technically ) bcause you
have to pay taxes for that land ( i don't know how it is in the US but in my country it's like that ) so you technically don't own that land to the point of claiming it is your country.

And that crap about ancestors living there 2000 years ago? West Poland once belonged to Germany ,
West Ukraine once belonged to Poland , Alsace once belonged to Germany , The US once belonged to the Native americans ( Indians ?),
Australia once belonged to the boomrang throwers (aborygenes?).... so what. That was years ago. But the Israel-Palestine conflict started 56 years ago ( + -)
and we know who is historically wrong ... but we live in a different time , and we're too kind to say you're wrong get the
hell out of there , that's why we want them to compromise :-)

Finding who's wrong was kinda easy ... but finding a solution is way more difficult.


That's my point of view and i'm from Europe. I'm open to other explanation of this problem
But for now that's how i understand it.

a very true analogy indeed.