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Fantasy Jellal vs Azuma

Who Wins?


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sharkai

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If something is moving fast, then it's a speed feat. Doesn't matter if the speed is the result of physical strength.
because it means that df natsu wont react to erza or suzuku sword strikes. he will be unable to say protect his neck

Why shouldn't August be able to use magic to counter Deus Sema? Irene is flat out immune to most of August's spells too. i really don't see the problem with this.
because i am trying make a point. lets say elfman has reached august tier.so that means dragon irene and this hypothetical elfman are in the same tier, about equal. irene decides to use her strongest move dues sema. august tier elfman yawns and smack it away. afterall we know someone far weaker than irene can do it.
Deus Sema is an enchanted rock. The enchantment is what pulls the rock towards the earth. Brandish can't effect anything that has more MP than enchanted Neinhart, and the enchantment on sema probably takes more MP than enchanted Neinhart.
then its durability will also be different
if its just meteor then its easy for brandish

The kinetic energy didn't turn into heat when Erza sliced it. We simply don't see the expected explosion. When a meteor impacts the ground, most of the rock actually vaporizes on impact. When Erza sliced it, crumbled into smaller chunks of debris.
doesnt compute. how can erza do that. that is not how physics work.
it seems like you are saying erza overpowered a spell not a physical object (because it did not behave as such)

Erza isn't Suzaku. Suzaku is slashing hard enough that the air pressure is displacing the flames from Selene's attack.
because its selene flame, the air becomes harder to move. dude stop man. spell can be cut that is all. why do we have to do this mental gymnastic
 

Seven777

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and the off topic discussion

is natsu stronger than erza. is natsu strongest character in the guild. well it looks like it. but remember no charcaters seems to think of him like that. which is mind you more important than what fans thinks of him. recent suzuku feats shows this.

tangible non tangible are not treated differently in fairy tail. you have equal chances of cutting shadow as you would have of cutting rocks. those who use physical attacks arent weaker than those who use energy waves. this is not even mentioned or showed in the manga.

dues sema weakness.
this is not in the manga. dues sema cannot be just a rock. otherwise as i said before it becomes a weak move for irene tier. just a rock means brandish can handle it while sleeping. brandish was scared of irene.
pof does increase power levels. so what if erza was hitting at or above irene level. is that impossible for pof in this manga.

this pof erza went to nearly one shot irene. so a case can be made for pof erza>irene
counter argument would be erza had ds.
this is complicated. because manga made it that way. dragon use ds. can you imagine zirconis one shoting igneel.
difference between demon slaying and dragon slaying.
think koyoka and silver
does anyone thinks koyoka has more chances of beatng mard. of course not. meanwhile silver might have been capable of one shotting mard. igneel and aconologia could fight. aconologia didnt one shot igneel like erza did with irene.

another point is why does dues sema has this weakness.
first its not mentioned in the manga
two this manga does not treat tangible and intangible differently
three do we really know of another attack (not hax) which can be overcome by weaker attack. we are basically talking about can natsu final attack against be over come by mages weaker than him, maybe gajeel and gray, with their own weaker attack
-They do, they think Natsu will destroy the world.
-Its treated differently, it's why Erza cut the meteor instead of the blast wave. It's why Erzas armors get broken every two seconds and Natsu's fire doesnt.
-Not at all. Deus Sema comes with the advantage of huge scale, something an attack like Roaring Thunder doesn't have. Not a weak move at all.
-Slayer advantage and Team Work. Without Wendy Eileen would have laughed Erza off like the child she was. Erza literally had zero chance against Eileen.
-Igneel may simply be more durable. Look at END, matched Gray's punches evenly, didn't get oneshot by DeS advantage.
-Why does any magic have a weakness? Why can Momento Mori be stopped by Demonization? Because Mashima says so, it's really that simple.
-Yes. Wendy blocking Dimaria's full power attack. It cleanly and entirely proves that weaker opponents can stop stronger attacks.
that cut on dragon irene shows otherwise
its not a weakness. i think its called a needle. which you are searching for in a haystack

i sure saw that gap with suzuku. i cant even say erza is weaker than suzuku because erza wasnt prepared for the attack and her position werent right. meanwhile suzuku looks couple of tiers above natsu

sooo. its not like flames of emotion allowed tower of heaven natsu to beat jellal

not in the manga. mishma apparently still thinks gajeel can handle natsu

you are making it special. its not is my point. it should be treated like any natsu power attcaks or laxus power attacks. no added benefits or weakness which you are trying to give it

she was. but pof raised erza power by alot.

its really hard for you to believe that pof exists in fairy tail and it raises people powers



huh so minerva only told sting not to fight kagura and jura and that too only to conserve energy?
-Not really, Mard has some pretty bad injuries too.
-Not really, it's just one of the many spells I listed, including Deus Sema. It's like finding needles in a stack of needles, pretty easy
-Yep, so did Hakune or whatever her name is.
-So?
-He nearly did, just another reason "power" is no different to hax. Mashima doesn't give a fuck about either.
-Not really, I'm treating it like any other spell in the manga. If it's shown to be beaten in a certain way, then it can be beaten in a certain way, that simple.
-No more than it raised Gray against Mard or Gildarts against August.
-It exists and it raises peoples powers. It raised Gray's powers against Mard for example, Slayer advantage was still needed.
-Is that not what I said?
doesnt compute. how can erza do that. that is not how physics work.
it seems like you are saying erza overpowered a spell not a physical object (because it did not behave as such)
It kinda is how physics work. Focusing on a single point of a rock shatters it much easier. It's why Pickaxes are a thing.
 

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because it means that df natsu wont react to erza or suzuku sword strikes. he will be unable to say protect his neck



because i am trying make a point. lets say elfman has reached august tier.so that means dragon irene and this hypothetical elfman are in the same tier, about equal. irene decides to use her strongest move dues sema. august tier elfman yawns and smack it away. afterall we know someone far weaker than irene can do it.


then its durability will also be different
if its just meteor then its easy for brandish



doesnt compute. how can erza do that. that is not how physics work.
it seems like you are saying erza overpowered a spell not a physical object (because it did not behave as such)



because its selene flame, the air becomes harder to move. dude stop man. spell can be cut that is all. why do we have to do this mental gymnastic
Why would that be the case? Natsu went from being unable to react to Jellal to easily keeping up with him with DF. No reason he couldn't react to Erza. The argument that DF doesn't increase speed doesn't really hold water. Wendy got much faster with DF too.

Yeah, no.... That's not what anyone is saying.

No, it wouldn't be. Being enchanted doesn't necessarily increase your durability. Case in point, Neinhart was enchanted with enough MP to be immune to Brandish. Still got oneshotted by Natsu.

Erza cut the meteor before it impacted the ground, and never had to deal with the explosion. There is a noticeable visual difference between the explosion Jellal's sema made, and how Irene's sema crumbled.

Erza cut a physical object. That physical object just happens to be part of Irene's spell. You seem to be not understanding the nature of Irene's spell. She's enchanting a rock from space to move towards her target, effectively creating a meteor. The rock is a physical object. The rock is under Irene's enchantment. The enchantment is what moves the meteor, and also what prevents Brandish from shrinking the rock... Assuming there is more MP in the enchantment than Neinhart.

It's not mental gymnastics lol. Suzaku must be creating enough air pressure to displace the flames because his sword isn't physically long enough to make those cuts. Well that, or he's using some sort of magic. Even in the chapter, you can see that it doesn't actually put out all the flames. Erza doesn't have feats suggesting she can recreate Suzaku does anyways.
 
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sharkai

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Why would that be the case? Natsu went from being unable to react to Jellal to easily keeping up with him with DF. No reason he couldn't react to Erza. The argument that DF doesn't increase speed doesn't really hold water. Wendy got much faster with DF too.
df natsu did not react to anything. he busted huge amount of power charging at jellal. which is a strength feat technically. hits jellal got made him unable to fight back. jellal barely faught df natsu. he just got stomped. jellal never used his speed to attack df natsu. only to get away. which natsu negated by brute strength.
dont know about wendy.

Yeah, no.... That's not what anyone is saying.
i thought that is what you are saying. once a character reaches a level. breaking meteor is possible. that level is around alverzec laxus. august tier elfmen is gonna yawn and take irene hyped move out

No, it wouldn't be. Being enchanted doesn't necessarily increase your durability. Case in point, Neinhart was enchanted with enough MP to be immune to Brandish. Still got oneshotted by Natsu.

Erza cut the meteor before it impacted the ground, and never had to deal with the explosion. There is a noticeable visual difference between the explosion Jellal's sema made, and how Irene's sema crumbled.

Erza cut a physical object. That physical object just happens to be part of Irene's spell. You seem to be not understanding the nature of Irene's spell. She's enchanting a rock from space to move towards her target, effectively creating a meteor. The rock is a physical object. The rock is under Irene's enchantment. The enchantment is what moves the meteor, and also what prevents Brandish from shrinking the rock... Assuming there is more MP in the enchantment than Neinhart.
i dont understand this at all. its just a rock, which irene is moving using enchantment. brandish isnt stopping the rock. just making it smaller. it does not conflict with irene enchantment which is apparently only moving the rock
if irene enchantment can stop brandish from shrinking it than it can also stop august tier from easily destroying it.
why are we assuming its not doing that as well?


because physcial objects arent cut like that. slicing it, turns it into two pieces. or maybe 10 pieces. the rock isnt glass, its not gonna shatter. anything that will completly destroy it would cause same level of destruction which would happen if that rock hits the ground. there is no special chemical reaction that happens when it hits the ground. stopping it will cause same level of destruction.

easier explanation is erza used magic. to cut or overpower or destroy dues sema (magic also). same thing would happen if irene top tier move was fire roar or soemthing


It's not mental gymnastics lol. Suzaku must be creating enough air pressure to displace the flames because his sword isn't physically long enough to make those cuts. Well that, or he's using some sort of magic. Even in the chapter, you can see that it doesn't actually put out all the flames. Erza doesn't have feats suggesting she can recreate Suzaku does anyways.
it is because, selene says you cut my flames. air pressure is just special terminology. just say someone just has to blow strong wind to displace fire, whether from elemental 4 guy or igneel. strong wind will blow both these flames away. eepecially if that flames is around you and not being blown towards you, which basically just means strong wind is blowing fire towards you.
he did use magic to cut selene flames. something like erza did with deus sema.
yes erza can. if you think erza is weak, then give her a weaker opponent. she will cut that weaker opponent fire. just like she cut dues sema

point is. magic can be cut. fire is something, logically (which you are saying) cannot be cut. Suzaaku cut it. pushing blade through the flame does nothing. creating vacume between fire wont amount to much either.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

-They do, they think Natsu will destroy the world.
-Its treated differently, it's why Erza cut the meteor instead of the blast wave. It's why Erzas armors get broken every two seconds and Natsu's fire doesnt.
-Not at all. Deus Sema comes with the advantage of huge scale, something an attack like Roaring Thunder doesn't have. Not a weak move at all.
-Slayer advantage and Team Work. Without Wendy Eileen would have laughed Erza off like the child she was. Erza literally had zero chance against Eileen.
-Igneel may simply be more durable. Look at END, matched Gray's punches evenly, didn't get oneshot by DeS advantage.
-Why does any magic have a weakness? Why can Momento Mori be stopped by Demonization? Because Mashima says so, it's really that simple.
-Yes. Wendy blocking Dimaria's full power attack. It cleanly and entirely proves that weaker opponents can stop stronger attacks.
-who thinks that. gajeel, wendy, laxus??
-but we have seen people cut blast waves just is recent chapters. we have seen natsu flames being handled easily as well.
-so that is like aconolgia roar. huge scale. what is its weakness
-pof erza overpowered irene strongest move. blasted rot aconolgia across town. either irene is aconolgia tier or we have some other problem here
-what. so different between igneel and aconologia is larger than irene and erza. lol. if erza can wreck irene with one ds move. aconologia needs to be near fodder level infront of igneel to not be able to do it too
-another easier explanation is that dues sema doesnt have a weakness you are talking about. its not in the manga. it only exists in your mind
just hitting brute strength with brute strength. you can handle deus sema like that, aconolgia roar, or natsu whatever strongest move he has.

-which would translate to erza blocking natsu strongest move. but you still want natsu easily killing erza laxus and suzuku with that move. hmm...


-Not really, Mard has some pretty bad injuries too.
-Not really, it's just one of the many spells I listed, including Deus Sema. It's like finding needles in a stack of needles, pretty easy
-Yep, so did Hakune or whatever her name is.
-So?
-He nearly did, just another reason "power" is no different to hax. Mashima doesn't give a fuck about either.
-Not really, I'm treating it like any other spell in the manga. If it's shown to be beaten in a certain way, then it can be beaten in a certain way, that simple.
-No more than it raised Gray against Mard or Gildarts against August.
-It exists and it raises peoples powers. It raised Gray's powers against Mard for example, Slayer advantage was still needed.
-Is that not what I said?
mard example is not same. gray made it clear he can handle mard from the start
- all those were hax. you can make zero prediction from them.
in a hypothetical senario, jellal might fight a strong guy. who beats him to the inch of his life. then jellal might get up and have no problem what so ever casting abysal break. that abyssal break weakness will most likely never be seen again.
when weakness is important in the manga. it is mentioned. not created by fans

-even you werent impressed by Hakune. suzuko impressed you from his initial feat. that is because of hax or cheat magic being used

-so flames of emotions isnt much different from pof. its most likely the same thing. allowing people to do the same thing.

-ooo. so basically punching with fire punch can beat aldron seed. so anyone doing that can do it. no need to look at power behind, definitely no need to talk about pof or anything.

gray didnt need pof to beat base mard. doubt he needed to pof to beat stronger one either. meanwhile full on enhanced charge did nothing of worth to irene's head.
august has no real durability feat. atleast i dont remember any

-yes without slayer magic it possible that even aconologia might not be able to harm dragon irene. only ds magic seems to be able to work on those scales

- i thought that is what you said. that sting should conserve energy so sting shouldnt fight jura (or kagura)
--- Double Post Merged, ---

It kinda is how physics work. Focusing on a single point of a rock shatters it much easier. It's why Pickaxes are a thing.
never heard of any plan of handling asteroid and meteor with pickaxes.
scientist only seems to think moving the astroid tragectoy a little bit is the only way we can save Earth with present technology.
 

Seven777

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-who thinks that. gajeel, wendy, laxus??
-but we have seen people cut blast waves just is recent chapters. we have seen natsu flames being handled easily as well.
-so that is like aconolgia roar. huge scale. what is its weakness
-pof erza overpowered irene strongest move. blasted rot aconolgia across town. either irene is aconolgia tier or we have some other problem here
-what. so different between igneel and aconologia is larger than irene and erza. lol. if erza can wreck irene with one ds move. aconologia needs to be near fodder level infront of igneel to not be able to do it too
-another easier explanation is that dues sema doesnt have a weakness you are talking about. its not in the manga. it only exists in your mind
just hitting brute strength with brute strength. you can handle deus sema like that, aconolgia roar, or natsu whatever strongest move he has.

-which would translate to erza blocking natsu strongest move. but you still want natsu easily killing erza laxus and suzuku with that move. hmm...




mard example is not same. gray made it clear he can handle mard from the start
- all those were hax. you can make zero prediction from them.
in a hypothetical senario, jellal might fight a strong guy. who beats him to the inch of his life. then jellal might get up and have no problem what so ever casting abysal break. that abyssal break weakness will most likely never be seen again.
when weakness is important in the manga. it is mentioned. not created by fans

-even you werent impressed by Hakune. suzuko impressed you from his initial feat. that is because of hax or cheat magic being used

-so flames of emotions isnt much different from pof. its most likely the same thing. allowing people to do the same thing.

-ooo. so basically punching with fire punch can beat aldron seed. so anyone doing that can do it. no need to look at power behind, definitely no need to talk about pof or anything.

gray didnt need pof to beat base mard. doubt he needed to pof to beat stronger one either. meanwhile full on enhanced charge did nothing of worth to irene's head.
august has no real durability feat. atleast i dont remember any

-yes without slayer magic it possible that even aconologia might not be able to harm dragon irene. only ds magic seems to be able to work on those scales

- i thought that is what you said. that sting should conserve energy so sting shouldnt fight jura (or kagura)
--- Double Post Merged, ---



never heard of any plan of handling asteroid and meteor with pickaxes.
scientist only seems to think moving the astroid tragectoy a little bit is the only way we can save Earth with present technology.
-Laxus and Wendy? Yeah, probably. Gajeel not so much. But I was more talking about people with actual power, like the dragon gods.
-So? I didn't say they couldn't be cut.
-There's no problem, those feats are simply within Erza's abilities.
-Who knows. END wasn't oneshot by Gray, so I see no reason for Igneel to be oneshot by Acnologia. Igneel is likely just more durable than Eileen.
-Whether Deus Sema has a weakness or not doesn't really matter, it's simply a fact that weaker characters can stop moves from stronger characters.
-Doesn't translate to that unless it's shown in the manga. Wendy blocked Dims full powered attack, that's in the manga.
-So?
-So what if they are haxes(not all of them are)? Means nothing, it's a term we made up. It's all just magic.
-Sure, but not because he beat Natsu and Erza, but because he challenged Selene.
-No, it's exclusive to Natsu
-Gray had as much PoF against Mard as Erza had against Eileen, likely more.
-Eileen doesn't have any durability feats either.
-No it isn't. Slayer magic, no slayer magic, Acnlogia with out a doubt, slaughters Eileen. He could beat her to death with his fists in human form.
-That's what Minerva said.
-No, there are several plans of handling them with nukes though. An asteroid that could destroy the planet, can be stopped by nukes that's destructive force is barely on the level of a city. They're simply focused on trajectory altering at the moment because the debris of the destroyed asteroid could still fuck us over, as asteroids that big have a gravitational force that will hold together the destroyed rubble and still fuck us. So yes, Erza destroying an meteor with less force than the meteor produces is exactly how physics works.
 

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-Laxus and Wendy? Yeah, probably. Gajeel not so much. But I was more talking about people with actual power, like the dragon gods.
-So? I didn't say they couldn't be cut.
-There's no problem, those feats are simply within Erza's abilities.
-Who knows. END wasn't oneshot by Gray, so I see no reason for Igneel to be oneshot by Acnologia. Igneel is likely just more durable than Eileen.
-Whether Deus Sema has a weakness or not doesn't really matter, it's simply a fact that weaker characters can stop moves from stronger characters.
-Doesn't translate to that unless it's shown in the manga. Wendy blocked Dims full powered attack, that's in the manga.
-So?
-So what if they are haxes(not all of them are)? Means nothing, it's a term we made up. It's all just magic.
-Sure, but not because he beat Natsu and Erza, but because he challenged Selene.
-No, it's exclusive to Natsu
-Gray had as much PoF against Mard as Erza had against Eileen, likely more.
-Eileen doesn't have any durability feats either.
-No it isn't. Slayer magic, no slayer magic, Acnlogia with out a doubt, slaughters Eileen. He could beat her to death with his fists in human form.
-That's what Minerva said.
-No, there are several plans of handling them with nukes though. An asteroid that could destroy the planet, can be stopped by nukes that's destructive force is barely on the level of a city. They're simply focused on trajectory altering at the moment because the debris of the destroyed asteroid could still fuck us over, as asteroids that big have a gravitational force that will hold together the destroyed rubble and still fuck us. So yes, Erza destroying an meteor with less force than the meteor produces is exactly how physics works.
we have barely seen much of dragon gods. aconolgia calling natsu king was amusing though

so what is the problem

irene being alot stronger than erza would cause alot of problem. if erza can one shot irene. and if erza can blast rot aconologia ascross town

but that wasnt a weaker character. that character went out to near one shot irene

igneel being more durble than irene means nothing. since aconologia is more stronger than erza

dimeria speciality is time. wendy isnt blocking reiko.

because if hax jacob is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laxus. infact jacob can handle five laxus at the same time

why is it exclusive to natsu if it doesnt allow natus to beat TOH jellal

gray didnt really need pof against mard

already mentioned irene durability feat

no he cant. we dont know aconolgia can harm dragons without ds

i have never heard of them. all i know, nukes dont have penetration powers, will do minimum damage to a solid rock meteor.

wouldnt small pieces just burn while entering Erath
 
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we have barely seen much of dragon gods. aconolgia calling natsu king was amusing though

so what is the problem

irene being alot stronger than erza would cause alot of problem. if erza can one shot irene. and if erza can blast rot aconologia ascross town

but that wasnt a weaker character. that character went out to near one shot irene

igneel being more durble than irene means nothing. since aconologia is more stronger than erza

dimeria speciality is time. wendy isnt blocking reiko.

because if hax jacob is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laxus. infact jacob can handle five laxus at the same time

why is it exclusive to natsu if it doesnt allow natus to beat TOH jellal

gray didnt really need of against mard

already mentioned irene durability feat

no he cant. we dont know aconolgia can harm dragons without ds

i have never heard of them. all i know, nukes dont have penetration powers, will do minimum damage to a solid rock meteor.
-Meh, most people think Natsu is no.1 anyway. Maybe not Gray/Gajeel cause they're rivals, but Laxus, Erza, Jellal, etc, they all think Natsu is the best too.
-I don't have a problem
-That's not a problem, Mard was a lot stronger than Gray too. Acno is a lot stronger than Christina, Aldo is a lot stronger than Giant Gajeel. It's all fine.
-Exactly my point, END was not oneshotted, neither was Igneel, seems perfectly fine to me.
-Dimaria without time, brutalized Wendy without effort, Wendy could still block her strongest attack.
-Not really. Laxus could nuke more Jacobs than Jacob could Transport Laxus's
-Because the manga names it his power obviously. You don't see me giving everyone Nakagami do you?
-Erza didn't really need it against Eileen. It's easy to say things.
-Yes he can, yes we do. Dragons are affected by magic.
-Nukes don't need penetration powers, and meteors aren't solid rock, they're structurally unsound. A smaller meteor will almost always destroy a larger one if they collide.
 

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-Meh, most people think Natsu is no.1 anyway. Maybe not Gray/Gajeel cause they're rivals, but Laxus, Erza, Jellal, etc, they all think Natsu is the best too.
-I don't have a problem
-That's not a problem, Mard was a lot stronger than Gray too. Acno is a lot stronger than Christina, Aldo is a lot stronger than Giant Gajeel. It's all fine.
-Exactly my point, END was not oneshotted, neither was Igneel, seems perfectly fine to me.
-Dimaria without time, brutalized Wendy without effort, Wendy could still block her strongest attack.
-Not really. Laxus could nuke more Jacobs than Jacob could Transport Laxus's
-Because the manga names it his power obviously. You don't see me giving everyone Nakagami do you?
-Erza didn't really need it against Eileen. It's easy to say things.
-Yes he can, yes we do. Dragons are affected by magic.
-Nukes don't need penetration powers, and meteors aren't solid rock, they're structurally unsound. A smaller meteor will almost always destroy a larger one if they collide.
they still dont treat like an ace

no he wasnt. mard attacks were easily being handled by gray. without pof

then why did irene get nearly one shot? why is she abnormally weak to ds while End and igneel arent

this is my argument weak point. but even with wendy example you cannot extrapolate what others can do or predict wendy future perfromance

laxus nukes would mean nothing. if he is not there. laxus has no abilty to counter transport. he can do nothing

manga says nothing. it basically talks about how emotions can fuel magic power. there is no difference between flames of emotions and pof.

no its not. we dont even know if aconolgia can beat dragons without ds

are they. when has dragon been hurt by magic and please dont give me zeref curse

are you sure i didnt know that.
 

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they still dont treat like an ace

no he wasnt. mard attacks were easily being handled by gray. without pof

then why did irene get nearly one shot? why is she abnormally weak to ds while End and igneel arent

this is my argument weak point. but even with wendy example you cannot extrapolate what others can do or predict wendy future perfromance

laxus nukes would mean nothing. if he is not there. laxus has no abilty to counter transport. he can do nothing

manga says nothing. it basically talks about how emotions can fuel magic power. there is no difference between flames of emotions and pof.

no its not. we dont even know if aconolgia can beat dragons without ds

are they. when has dragon been hurt by magic and please dont give me zeref curse

are you sure i didnt know that.
-Sure, they've known him since he was a weakling. They all know he's the strongest now though.
-No they weren't? Mard was kicking Natsu and Gray's ass at the same time
-Simple, she doesn't have as good durability as Igneel and END, just like Mard.
-So? I don't need to. It's simply a fact that Deus Sema getting destroyed by a weaker character is not an exception in the manga.
-He doesn't need to counter it, it kills Jacob, and Transport doesn't happen.
-The manga says Natsu has flames of emotion, so Natsu has the flames of emotion. Just like the manga says Erza has Requip magic.
-We do. He's the strongest character in the series, he beats everyone. I'd have to see a dragon endure his non DS attack before I'd say they could beat him.
-Zeref's curse, Rogues magic, Zeref's transformation magic, Dragon Cry, White Out, Fairy Sphere
-Look it up. It's simple physics, like my pickaxe example, rocks are brittle and easier to destroy with a focused impacts, this goes doubly for meteors due to their size
 

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-Sure, they've known him since he was a weakling. They all know he's the strongest now though.
-No they weren't? Mard was kicking Natsu and Gray's ass at the same time
-Simple, she doesn't have as good durability as Igneel and END, just like Mard.
-So? I don't need to. It's simply a fact that Deus Sema getting destroyed by a weaker character is not an exception in the manga.
-He doesn't need to counter it, it kills Jacob, and Transport doesn't happen.
-The manga says Natsu has flames of emotion, so Natsu has the flames of emotion. Just like the manga says Erza has Requip magic.
-We do. He's the strongest character in the series, he beats everyone. I'd have to see a dragon endure his non DS attack before I'd say they could beat him.
-Zeref's curse, Rogues magic, Zeref's transformation magic, Dragon Cry, White Out, Fairy Sphere
-Look it up. It's simple physics, like my pickaxe example, rocks are brittle and easier to destroy with a focused impacts, this goes doubly for meteors due to their size
Still haven't been mentioned in the manga. So still not cannon

Gray causally froze mard move and next move had mard in pain. And that was just start of the fight

Is that only explanation possible that Irene (who was able to survive while distracted and enhanced erza strike to the head) has weak durability. Can you think of no other possible explanation?

That weaker character was tripping on pof. Same way natsu killed aldron. Before that natsu was nowhere near aldron level

Err. That just mean laxus has to hurry and finish jacob off. In case of laxus not knowing jacob hax. He will most likely just stare as jacob one shot laxus with transport. The fact laxus has to hurry and finish off jacob speaks volume. Even against gildarts laxus doesn't have to hurry with his first strike. That is the nature of cheat magic

And what does flame of emotion does? Its just little stronger flame.

Aconologia has no non ds move. Even his hands have ds magic in them.

Rouge magic didnt hurt dragons. Nor did zeref transformation which Irene allowed. Nor did white out which Mercuphobia allowed nor did fairy spere. Zeref curse is beyond zeref control. Didnt even use it or could not use it against natsu. We know nothing of that god

I will check that info soon
 

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This discussion have gone way off topic
 

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df natsu did not react to anything. he busted huge amount of power charging at jellal. which is a strength feat technically. hits jellal got made him unable to fight back. jellal barely faught df natsu. he just got stomped. jellal never used his speed to attack df natsu. only to get away. which natsu negated by brute strength.
dont know about wendy.



i thought that is what you are saying. once a character reaches a level. breaking meteor is possible. that level is around alverzec laxus. august tier elfmen is gonna yawn and take irene hyped move out



i dont understand this at all. its just a rock, which irene is moving using enchantment. brandish isnt stopping the rock. just making it smaller. it does not conflict with irene enchantment which is apparently only moving the rock
if irene enchantment can stop brandish from shrinking it than it can also stop august tier from easily destroying it.
why are we assuming its not doing that as well?


because physcial objects arent cut like that. slicing it, turns it into two pieces. or maybe 10 pieces. the rock isnt glass, its not gonna shatter. anything that will completly destroy it would cause same level of destruction which would happen if that rock hits the ground. there is no special chemical reaction that happens when it hits the ground. stopping it will cause same level of destruction.

easier explanation is erza used magic. to cut or overpower or destroy dues sema (magic also). same thing would happen if irene top tier move was fire roar or soemthing




it is because, selene says you cut my flames. air pressure is just special terminology. just say someone just has to blow strong wind to displace fire, whether from elemental 4 guy or igneel. strong wind will blow both these flames away. eepecially if that flames is around you and not being blown towards you, which basically just means strong wind is blowing fire towards you.
he did use magic to cut selene flames. something like erza did with deus sema.
yes erza can. if you think erza is weak, then give her a weaker opponent. she will cut that weaker opponent fire. just like she cut dues sema

point is. magic can be cut. fire is something, logically (which you are saying) cannot be cut. Suzaaku cut it. pushing blade through the flame does nothing. creating vacume between fire wont amount to much either.
Natsu chased Jellal up the tower. This isn't possible if (1) he can't track Jellal's position, and (2) he can't move at speeds relatively close to Jellal's. It's a speed feat.

August tier Elfman? Say what now?

Brandish can't shrink anything if it has too much magic power, regardless of its physical properties. There is MP in the rock because Irene's enchanting it. That MP is going towards accelerating the rock towards its target, creating a meteor. We have nothing to suggest it's making the rock physically tougher, and Irene treats the durability of the rock as if it's an actual meteor. Neinhart was enchanted with so much MP that Brandish couldn't affect him either, and Natsu still twoshotted him with regular attacks. Neinhart should be harder to beat than Wall or even Jacob if his durability went up, but he's not.

We can literally see the difference between Jellal's sema and Irene's. Jellal' s sema impacted the ground, and the energy released in the form of an explosion vaporized the rock itself... As well as all the rock in the surrounding. When Erza broke Irene's meteor, the rock just crumbled and there was no explosion. Erza thought that the meteor would blow apart the entire battlefield. If you believe that making contact with Erza's sword would have created the same explosion if hit the ground, then we would see a city sized explosion up in the sky. We didn't.

Suzaku can create enough air pressure with his slashes to displace the fire. Either that, or he's making blades of MP that extend beyond his sword's reach. And sure, we can call it strong winds. Erza's slashes has to create strong enough winds to actually displace the flames if she wants to put it out. Dispelling magic itself is different from cutting flames. If Erza can do that, like with nakagami, then sure she can dispel any fire magic. But that's not something we've seen her do with her katanas.

The point being if Erza isn't putting out Irene's fireball explosions or Laxus's red lightning with her slashes, she's probably not going to find much success against August's melt.
 

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This discussion have gone way off topic
Yeah I know. I was hoping to take them into power level thread but
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Natsu chased Jellal up the tower. This isn't possible if (1) he can't track Jellal's position, and (2) he can't move at speeds relatively close to Jellal's. It's a speed feat.

August tier Elfman? Say what now?

Brandish can't shrink anything if it has too much magic power, regardless of its physical properties. There is MP in the rock because Irene's enchanting it. That MP is going towards accelerating the rock towards its target, creating a meteor. We have nothing to suggest it's making the rock physically tougher, and Irene treats the durability of the rock as if it's an actual meteor. Neinhart was enchanted with so much MP that Brandish couldn't affect him either, and Natsu still twoshotted him with regular attacks. Neinhart should be harder to beat than Wall or even Jacob if his durability went up, but he's not.

We can literally see the difference between Jellal's sema and Irene's. Jellal' s sema impacted the ground, and the energy released in the form of an explosion vaporized the rock itself... As well as all the rock in the surrounding. When Erza broke Irene's meteor, the rock just crumbled and there was no explosion. Erza thought that the meteor would blow apart the entire battlefield. If you believe that making contact with Erza's sword would have created the same explosion if hit the ground, then we would see a city sized explosion up in the sky. We didn't.

Suzaku can create enough air pressure with his slashes to displace the fire. Either that, or he's making blades of MP that extend beyond his sword's reach. And sure, we can call it strong winds. Erza's slashes has to create strong enough winds to actually displace the flames if she wants to put it out. Dispelling magic itself is different from cutting flames. If Erza can do that, like with nakagami, then sure she can dispel any fire magic. But that's not something we've seen her do with her katanas.

The point being if Erza isn't putting out Irene's fireball explosions or Laxus's red lightning with her slashes, she's probably not going to find much success against August's melt.
Jellal was moving straight. Natsu used alot of brute strength to jump. Technically not a speed feat as I mentioned in the start

Cant I make a hypothetical scenario

This is bs. Either brandish can effect the rock or irene mp is changing how that rock behaves. No more detail is given. Rest is just nonsense to dehype erza feat. Nothing more

Because rock dont behave like that. Erza simply cut magic

We have seen erza cut through aria magic.

We have seen erza cut irene spell dues sema. It was cut like magic, not like a rock would be cut
Thus it stands that erza can cut august causal moves and laxus strongest move along with his body.
If we are to make nonsensical assumptions that irene hyped up move can have durability far below normal weaker moves than we can say the same for august melt or even ars magi spell. Pre ts erza can cut aria wind, that should be enough to cut august melt and his suicide spell as well
 

Axiomus

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Yeah I know. I was hoping to take them into power level thread but
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Jellal was moving straight. Natsu used alot of brute strength to jump. Technically not a speed feat as I mentioned in the start

Cant I make a hypothetical scenario

This is bs. Either brandish can effect the rock or irene mp is changing how that rock behaves. No more detail is given. Rest is just nonsense to dehype erza feat. Nothing more

Because rock dont behave like that. Erza simply cut magic

We have seen erza cut through aria magic.

We have seen erza cut irene spell dues sema. It was cut like magic, not like a rock would be cut
Thus it stands that erza can cut august causal moves and laxus strongest move along with his body.
If we are to make nonsensical assumptions that irene hyped up move can have durability far below normal weaker moves than we can say the same for august melt or even ars magi spell. Pre ts erza can cut aria wind, that should be enough to cut august melt and his suicide spell as well
No, he wasn't. Jellal was zig-zagging up the tower. Natsu followed behind him. This is a speed feat no matter how you look at it. This idea that speed that comes from physical strength doesn't count as speed is absurd to begin with. Superman is as fast as the Flash with nothing but physical strength. And again, Wendy is objectively faster with DF as well.

It's a hypothetical scenario that nobody is arguing for.

What Brandish can affect has absolutely nothing to do with how physically tough her target is. It has to do with how much magical power is in it. Irene is putting an enchantment on the rock, thereby giving it magical power. That magical power simply isn't going towards making the rock physically tougher. It's being used to pull the rock towards her target. Similarly, the enchantment she gave to Neinhart gave him magic power far beyond that of an average Spriggan. This didn't stop Natsu from just strolling up to Neinhart and smashing his face in with far greater ease than he had to use against Jacob. The bottom line is that Deus Sema's durability has absolutely nothing to do with Irene's own durability or even her MP. What makes deus sema impressive is the fact that Irene is pulling a giant rock from space and throwing it really fast. Not because the rock itself is the toughest thing Irene can make. In fact, we know for a fact that the material of the meteor is weaker than Irene's own scales, because Irene said so. Simply put: Deus sema is Irene using magic to throw a rock. Because the magic used to throw the rock is too strong, Brandish can't affect it. This says nothing about the physical durability of the rock.

Erza cut a rock when she cut deus sema dude.

Which is wind, but sure. Aria's magic is a far cry from August's.

It's not that Deus Sema has weaker durability than August's melt lol. It's that Deus Sema is a rock, and rocks fall to peices when you smash them. A pillar of fire isn't going to disperse when you run a sword through it. You must physically displace the flames with air, or something else. Even when Suzaku slashed Selene's flames, the flames didn't disappear. He just displaced enough of it so that it didn't hit him. Irene created her butterflies out of the flames left behind. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible to disperse a giant pillar of flame with a sword slash. I'm saying we haven't seen Erza do it. You want to argue that smashing deus sema translates 1:1 with dispersing melt. It doesn't. One is a solid, one is a fluid. And you don't have to be a genius to figure out that slashing a fluid runs into more problems than slashing a solid.
 

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Still haven't been mentioned in the manga. So still not cannon

Gray causally froze mard move and next move had mard in pain. And that was just start of the fight

Is that only explanation possible that Irene (who was able to survive while distracted and enhanced erza strike to the head) has weak durability. Can you think of no other possible explanation?

That weaker character was tripping on pof. Same way natsu killed aldron. Before that natsu was nowhere near aldron level

Err. That just mean laxus has to hurry and finish jacob off. In case of laxus not knowing jacob hax. He will most likely just stare as jacob one shot laxus with transport. The fact laxus has to hurry and finish off jacob speaks volume. Even against gildarts laxus doesn't have to hurry with his first strike. That is the nature of cheat magic

And what does flame of emotion does? Its just little stronger flame.

Aconologia has no non ds move. Even his hands have ds magic in them.

Rouge magic didnt hurt dragons. Nor did zeref transformation which Irene allowed. Nor did white out which Mercuphobia allowed nor did fairy spere. Zeref curse is beyond zeref control. Didnt even use it or could not use it against natsu. We know nothing of that god

I will check that info soon
-Haha, what? Acno called him king, it's canon.
-Base Mard.
-I didn't say weak durability, I said durability weaker than Igneel and END. And yes, that's the only explanation.
-That was base Natsu, and even he wasn't doing that bad. DF Natsu is a league above, as he always has been.
-Not really, he nuked Ajeel right off the bat. Plus he could easily just dodge Transport, he can fly. Not that it matters, some magic is just more dangerous.
-A stronger flame, yep, very useful for fighting stronger opponents.
-Yep, and if he was never a DS, he may never have become so strong. But if I'm going to assume he's fighting with no DS at his current strength, he wins.
-No, it affected them, as did Zeref's to Eileen's shock, as did White Out, as did Fairy Sphere. Being beyond Zeref's control is irrelevant, it still hurt Aldaron, and it's still not DS magic. Dragons aren't immune to anything but their own element, we know this, because that's specifically what makes Acnologia special. Dragons are simply too durable for characters weaker than them to damage.
 

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-Haha, what? Acno called him king, it's canon.
-Base Mard.
-I didn't say weak durability, I said durability weaker than Igneel and END. And yes, that's the only explanation.
-That was base Natsu, and even he wasn't doing that bad. DF Natsu is a league above, as he always has been.
-Not really, he nuked Ajeel right off the bat. Plus he could easily just dodge Transport, he can fly. Not that it matters, some magic is just more dangerous.
-A stronger flame, yep, very useful for fighting stronger opponents.
-Yep, and if he was never a DS, he may never have become so strong. But if I'm going to assume he's fighting with no DS at his current strength, he wins.
-No, it affected them, as did Zeref's to Eileen's shock, as did White Out, as did Fairy Sphere. Being beyond Zeref's control is irrelevant, it still hurt Aldaron, and it's still not DS magic. Dragons aren't immune to anything but their own element, we know this, because that's specifically what makes Acnologia special. Dragons are simply too durable for characters weaker than them to damage.
king not ace, man

still it was established that gray could one shot mard
-I didn't say weak durability, I said durability weaker than Igneel and END. And yes, that's the only explanation.
seriously
i thought you were smarter

if some magic is dangerous than how would you define tiers.
ajeel can be one shot by laxus. and provided laxus cant dodge transport, five laxus gets one shot by jacob. how again are ajeel and jacob in the same tier or on the same planet

stronger flames, so just like pof. we have seen erza gets stronger with pof. so what is the differernce again

sadly you have no proof for this. without ds we havent seen dragons get harmed

so non ds magic hasnt harmed any dragons. other than zeref curse put on him by an omnipotent thing which is tiers above rot aconologia and could possibliy be a dragon itself.


checked the meteorite thing. nothing about weak structure. only statement i found was something like 'we can throw all our nukes at it and hope that destroys it'.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

No, he wasn't. Jellal was zig-zagging up the tower. Natsu followed behind him. This is a speed feat no matter how you look at it. This idea that speed that comes from physical strength doesn't count as speed is absurd to begin with. Superman is as fast as the Flash with nothing but physical strength. And again, Wendy is objectively faster with DF as well.
is that panel after natsu punches him in the guts? because if it is than jellal escapes here. df natsu doesnt catch him.

its not absurd. reaction speed is different than movement speed.
its like flying at mach 6. human still wont react to even mach 1 projectiles.

It's a hypothetical scenario that nobody is arguing for.
its an argument that shows how you are dehyping the bejesus out of deus sema. its like since we know phantom arc erza can cut wind, it means she can cut ars magia as well

What Brandish can affect has absolutely nothing to do with how physically tough her target is. It has to do with how much magical power is in it. Irene is putting an enchantment on the rock, thereby giving it magical power. That magical power simply isn't going towards making the rock physically tougher. It's being used to pull the rock towards her target. Similarly, the enchantment she gave to Neinhart gave him magic power far beyond that of an average Spriggan. This didn't stop Natsu from just strolling up to Neinhart and smashing his face in with far greater ease than he had to use against Jacob. The bottom line is that Deus Sema's durability has absolutely nothing to do with Irene's own durability or even her MP. What makes deus sema impressive is the fact that Irene is pulling a giant rock from space and throwing it really fast. Not because the rock itself is the toughest thing Irene can make. In fact, we know for a fact that the material of the meteor is weaker than Irene's own scales, because Irene said so. Simply put: Deus sema is Irene using magic to throw a rock. Because the magic used to throw the rock is too strong, Brandish can't affect it. This says nothing about the physical durability of the rock.
physically tough depends on magic. if her enchantment is stoping brandish from shrinking it (not stoping its movement which is what irene enchantment is doing right). why isnt she also making it tougher.
why are we assuming that since kagura can cut rocks she can also cut this.

Erza cut a rock when she cut deus sema dude.
then where are the two pieces or maybe ten pieces of the rock?

You want to argue that smashing deus sema translates 1:1 with dispersing melt. It doesn't. One is a solid, one is a fluid.
And you don't have to be a genius to figure out that slashing a fluid runs into more problems than slashing a solid.
not in a world where people eat shadows

Which is wind, but sure. Aria's magic is a far cry from August's.

It's not that Deus Sema has weaker durability than August's melt lol. It's that Deus Sema is a rock, and rocks fall to peices when you smash them. A pillar of fire isn't going to disperse when you run a sword through it. You must physically displace the flames with air, or something else. Even when Suzaku slashed Selene's flames, the flames didn't disappear. He just displaced enough of it so that it didn't hit him. Irene created her butterflies out of the flames left behind. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible to disperse a giant pillar of flame with a sword slash. I'm saying we haven't seen Erza do it. You want to argue that smashing deus sema translates 1:1 with dispersing melt. It doesn't. One is a solid, one is a fluid. And you don't have to be a genius to figure out that slashing a fluid runs into more problems than slashing a solid.
what do you mean far cry. pre ts erza can cut disperse wind, thus she can do same to august and selene magic. why are these magic getting durability when dues sema isnt
--- Double Post Merged, ---

we know for a fact that the material of the meteor is weaker than Irene's own scales, because Irene said so.
she didnt say that. basically it had to do with ds magic. OS wendy has more chances of hurting dragon irene compared to say alverzec pof erza
 

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It's the panel of Jellal running up the tower, and Natsu chasing behind him. And sure, Jellal might be faster. But he's faster in the way an NBA player is faster than me. This doesn't change the fact that DF made Natsu faster. He went from being unable to even track Jellal's movement to being able to chase him. How is this not a speed feat in every sense of the phrase?

Nobody is arguing for an August level Elfman. Nor does it have any meaning. We can't even be sure that August using a takeover would have greater physical strength than his red skinned battlemode. August has the physical strength he showed against Gildarts, and that's all I care to judge him by.

MP only makes you stronger if that MP is used for magic that makes you stronger. Brandish can stab August. Wendy can cut Irene. Both of which have more MP inside their bodies than they would put into one individual spell. Like I pointed out with Neinhart, MP that makes you immune to Brandish magic doesn't make you strong enough to prevent Natsu from oneshotting you.

Well, there is a difference between slicing a stationary rock and an meteor. The latter being a considerably more difficult feat. I don't believe every character that can smash a stationary rock can smash a meteor, regardless of MP.

Look at the difference in size between August's melt and Aria's attacks. You tell me why it doesn't scale. Nobody is giving melt durability. The whole reason why it would be more difficult to cut melt is because Erza's sword is just going to pass through melt. She must, like Suzaku, create enough pressure (either by wind or MP) to displace the flames. I ask you this, how many times did Erza disperse Irene's explosion enchantments in their fight?

Yeah, Irene did. Dragon scales aren't immune to magic. They're just super hard.
 
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Seven777

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king not ace, man

still it was established that gray could one shot mard


seriously
i thought you were smarter

if some magic is dangerous than how would you define tiers.
ajeel can be one shot by laxus. and provided laxus cant dodge transport, five laxus gets one shot by jacob. how again are ajeel and jacob in the same tier or on the same planet

stronger flames, so just like pof. we have seen erza gets stronger with pof. so what is the differernce again

sadly you have no proof for this. without ds we havent seen dragons get harmed

so non ds magic hasnt harmed any dragons. other than zeref curse put on him by an omnipotent thing which is tiers above rot aconologia and could possibliy be a dragon itself.


checked the meteorite thing. nothing about weak structure. only statement i found was something like 'we can throw all our nukes at it and hope that destroys it'.
-Is there some reason I should care about the word "ace"? Because I don't.
-No it doesn't, because he didn't oneshot Mard. He had a long and brutal battle with him.
-Smarter than what? You? You thought right in that case.
-Can Jacob beat Ajeel though? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Some magic lets you hit outside it's weightclass, this isn't new. Look at Fairy Glitter.
-The difference is flames of emotions have better feats, much better.
-I do, all the times dragons were affected by magic. You need to prove they're immune.
-Ankhseram isn't omnipotent, or tiers above RoT Acno. He's just a god. And the fact that it hurt a dragon proves my point entirely.
-Bigger objects have more flaws, you can see it in the many cracks and craters of a meteor, and there are certainly many flaws to be seen on Eileens. Surely you know that holes and cracks in a rock = not as solid as a rock with less cracks and holes, right? Right. That aside, shoot a falling brick with a bullet, what happens? The brick breaks, it's really simple. Erza and her sword are the bullet, Eileen's meteor is the falling brick.
 

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Yeah, Irene did. Dragon scales aren't immune to magic. They're just super hard.
I still have problems with this because If a dragon slayer can still hurt a dragon even if they’re not the strongest person around.
‘what good is having hard scales if it can’t protect you from the one of the few things that are a threat to you like other dragons
 

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I still have problems with this because If a dragon slayer can still hurt a dragon even if they’re not the strongest person around.
‘what good is having hard scales if it can’t protect you from the one of the few things that are a threat to you like other dragons
Protects you from everything else.
 
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