Discussion Joker vs Luffy Fight Assessment/ Cracker vs Luffy Fight Assessment

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 7, 2017

FIRST ENCOUNTER - Joker's punches Luffy square in the face

Kyros is unaware that the Joker he decapitated was his clone (Black Knight) - the real Joker is about to decapitate him in return.
Kyros is saved by Luffy while Joker and his Black Knight are in the vicinity.
Luffy attacks the real Joker, but forgets about the Black Knight (clone).
Due to being careless as to not consider the clone (AKA distraction), he gets met with a punch to the face because the clone attacks him from the back.

This was only possible due to distraction, not superiority.

SECOND ENCOUNTER - Luffy's Red Hawk on Joker

Law is fighting with Joker's clone (Black Knight).
Luffy is fighting against Bellamy who is being controlled by Joker.
Luffy pretends to be upset at Law for the current situation (obviously devised).
Trebol falls for the hoax plan; Luffy aims his Red Hawk at Law whereby Law switches himself with Joker - and voila, Joker's met with a punch to the gut.

Possible because of a distraction, once again.

THIRD ENCOUNTER - Law's half-dead, Bellamy's down & Luffy is fighting Joker 1 on 1

No interference, Luffy is holding his own and no one has the advantage.

Evidently, neither Luffy nor Joker are having the advantage or landing clean hits; it's pretty much even which Law couldn't even achieve in his own duel against Joker, he always on the defence and his offensive attacks were pretty much too easy for Joker to read.

FOURTH ENCOUNTER - Law's Interupts...Again

Luffy is about to feign another attack, Law uses room.
Law lands an apparently decisive blow to defeat Joker.

The element of DISTRACTION, yet again.

FINAL ENCOUNTER - Law is finally out for good

Luffy holds his own against Joker, and both are exchanging and dodging blows just like prior to Law's last interference.

In retrospect, did Law ever engage Joker on terms that ever made them seem equal? Joker caught Law like a fly, he was not fast enough or strong enough to really be problematic for Joker.

Prior to anything Law did, Joker never once had the upper-hand against Luffy except there was a form of distraction in place; so it's pretty clear that Luffy and Joker were relatively even to the other until they both decided to use their trump cards which clearly showed the difference in speed and strength.

There really is not time where Joker is outrightly shown superior to Luffy, it's a lack of not reading properly that gives one that assumption. . It doesn't matter whether they fought 1 on 1 from the on-set, the fact is whenever they fought 1 on 1, it was always an evenly matched exchange.

Gear 4th vs Joker

When Joker was first met with Gear 4th, he acknowledged the power as we see here being that he said "what the heck is this power" - Completely out muscled.
Even though he noticed Luffy flying towards him, he still couldn't even turn to react to it, the best he could muster was activate Armament Haki just in time for the attack to land - Completely Out-sped.
His best close quarters kick was repelled and rendered absolutely ineffective. - Impenetrable Defence.

In all honesty, in close-combat, Joker cannot defend against Gear 4th even with blocking, he can't keep up with the speed, and he can't even retaliate in close-combat - he's simply outmatched in every department; he simply cannot fight against it.

How long does one estimate the first few attacks took:

Kong Gun
Rhino Schneider
Culverin

Couldn't have been more than a minutes and that might even be too generous given they move at incredible speeds.

Joker's Solution

The same kick he used against Luffy in Gear 2nd/Base made him fly is no longer effective enough to hurt Luffy. As a result, he realises that he can no longer fight with Luffy the way he did in Gear 2nd due to the overwhelming difference in power.

Joker realises that Luffy's Gear 4th must be taking a huge toll on his body. Following this understanding, he resorts to simply keeping Luffy away from him at all costs.
Joker anticipates he'll be able to last only a second, but Luffy proves how durable he is and Joker gets frustrated by his persistence and wishes Luffy would just give up on trying to hit is real body.
After 20 minutes of trying to find his way to Joker's body to hit, he finally decides to just barge his way through his wall of strings.
...and finally lands Lea Bazooka.

If it takes a minute (less because it's not like Luffy charges his attacks) to land 3 attacks within close-combat quarters, it surely wouldn't take a minute more for Luffy to have executed:

Leo Bazooka which we saw at the 20th minute.
and King Kong gun after recuperating.

If we estimate and add up the total time taken to perform those 5 attacks, it couldn't require more than a minute to execute them, and that'd still leave 19 minutes in which Luffy could sustain Gear 4th being that it lasts 20 minutes at Dressrosa (probably longer now); in essence, Joker would have been defeated within a minute or 2 if he had no strings to hide behind to stall.

Joker's Strings

Bare in mind, Joker's strings are not him. They're just things he controls. Proof?

He doesn't care when Fujitora aims strings at his Birdcage.
Different story when it's aimed directly at his body. He's terrified.

Joker's ability is very powerful in creating distance and protecting himself. Joker for example coughed and was in pain from a Red Hawk, how much more would he be from an Elephant Gun which pushed Fujitora?

It's because his strings are so durable that they're great at defence, and because he can control and create multitudes of them that he can create distance and fight at distance.
Tanking attacks with his strings which do not feel pain or require his physical strength is completely different from him physically tanking and expresses pain and discomfort.
He even avoids tanking Luffy's Gear 2nd/Base attacks. They're clearly not weak if he has to avoid them.

Conclusion

Yes, Joker is strong. However, it can't be denied how powerful his strings are and how great they are in keeping distance, attacking from range and the great offence they offer. If not for such a convenient power and this fight was a straight up brawl like it was with Gear 2nd at the later stages, this fight wouldn't have lasted long. Reality is also, Cracker fought using the same tactics and in the end, it only took 5 attacks from Gear 4th to defeat him.

Cracker

Corollary to what was said regarding Joker, his biscuits are not him. Hit his biscuits, he feels no pain, You hit him, he feels pain. We even know he hates pain more than anything else even if it's just a needles prick. Just like Joker manipulates his strings, Cracker manipulates biscuits.

Cracker's Clone Power

Luffy meets Cracker, and they almost instantly exchange blows. Bare in mind, this is not Cracker fighting, it's a clone. These clones don't get tired, they don't feel pain, they just move and do as they're instructed by Cracker.

This clone is so powerful that it overwhelms Luffy so devastatingly that a Gear 3rd attack is completely nullified in its tracks. It's not strong enough to even make Cracker budge even an inch.

Just to create a contrast regarding how powerful these clones are, even Fujitora who is an admiral was forced to move and sent flying from Gear 3rd while Cracker's clone wasn't.
Cracker's clones has multiple hands on top of being able to keep up with Luffy who is extremely fast. Luffy is just completely overwhelmed both in speed and in power.
Even when Luffy retaliates with a Hawk Gatling, the rolling punches just can't push Cracker's clone back and more so when it's given extra durability with the invisible Armament Haki and is progressively pushed back in embarrassing fashion.
As the fight progresses. Luffy just has to resort to Gear 4th against this clone before he can take it out.
It then becomes apparent that all Luffy has actually been fighting is a clone, not the actual Cracker himself.

As Cracker himself just says, this clone is just 1 of many he can summon and it took Luffy going into Gear 4th just to stand a chance against it.

He's not joking when he says his power is infinite due to the fact that these clones he creates can be made with a mere clap of the hands.
Also, the reason they're so durable is due to his talent as an artisan craftsman.

We learn later in the battle that Luffy has been eating these clones. When he eats them does Cracker feel pain? No. His clones are not him. They're just a product of his abilities. They're incredible durable, fast and he can summon 4 at a time meaning it's essentially a 5 on 1 fight.

The Fight

Cracker fights by distancing himself from his opponent in the event his main clone is broken.

While they're occupied, he lunges in for a sneak attack over and over again until they're defeated. It's certainly a torturous ordeal for anyone facing anyone with such an advantageous ability.

This is why the fight took 11 hours because Luffy was constantly trying to get past these biscuits that he summons infinitely, but every time they're down, he just summons another making it nigh impossible to get to Cracker.

It's not until Cracker gets the impression that Luffy can't move that he goes in for an attack.
Even when he complains about Nami making it rain and softening his Crackers who are already durable without Haki, he still continued to rely on them which implies it takes a while for them to become soft enough to be useless and edible. Even with that, Luffy still was unable to get to Cracker which shows how powerful these clones truly are.

Conclusion

While Cracker's power isn't to be undermined, it's similar to Joker. It's unusually durable which makes it great for defence and can create multiple of them which makes them great for both close-ranged and long-ranged distance combat. Both their abilities tank and attack which always means there's a good chance they get the opportunity to sneak in attacks.

Though these battles were hard-fought, both these characters showed that once their bodies were reached and hit, it didn't take many hits to bring them down which shows how powerful Gear 4th is and why this battle was such a struggle.

Anyone who fought such a battle would struggle. It's like trying to use a gun to kill a fly. While a gun offers extreme power and force, unless you can hit your target, you can't win. These abilities are just conveniently powerful and great at keeping distance.

Therefore, I don't deem Joker and Cracker as stronger than Luffy. I just deem them as very troublesome opponents.

Bigivelfhq · Jul 8, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
...

You're forgetting things. Cracker was able to cut Luffy in Gear 4. And it didn't took Luffy 5 attacks to defeat Cracker, just 1 attack in Gear 4th landed, it was a mega special attack and it included the impact of crackers own biscuits and other object in the way.

Is pretty obvious that Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. And while Doflamingo wasn't stronger than Luffy. If you account the damage and stamina in Dressrossa is obvious that Luffy had a huge handicap, and he was taking a beat down period. Cracker was stronger than Luffy. Luffy was the one in the ropes.

And it doesn't matter how Cracker and Doflamingo uses their powers, it is their POWER. Luffy is also using his POWER. Gear 4th is nothing more than his use of Rubber power.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 8, 2017

Bigivelfhq said:
You're forgetting things. Cracker was able to cut Luffy in Gear 4.

Yes, only because Luffy already thought Cracker was defeated.

He didn't know that was just a mere clone.

Luffy essentially got hit by a character he thought was dead.

Anyone can get hit by that.

It was also the only time he hit Luffy despite fighting 5 on 1.

Bigivelfhq said:
it is their POWER. Luffy is also using his POWER

Not like they were born with it, they ate it. Point is their abilities give them advantages that has nothing to do with how strong they are. Anyone can be powerful with a strong ability.

Perona defeated Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Franky, does that make Perona stronger than them even though Usopp defeated her?

Bigivelfhq · Jul 8, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
Yes, only because Luffy already thought Cracker was defeated.

He didn't know that was just a mere clone.

Luffy essentially got hit by a character he thought was dead.

Anyone can get hit by that.

It was also the only time he hit Luffy despite fighting 5 on 1.

Not like they were born with it, they ate it. Point is their abilities give them advantages that has nothing to do with how strong they are. Anyone can be powerful with a strong ability.

Perona defeated Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Franky, does that make Perona stronger than them even though Usopp defeated her?

Not it wasn't the only time. When Luffy made the Gomu Gomu no Organ, he also cut Luffy.
Don't forget that Luffy to defeat Craker didn't only need Nami Rain, no, they also had to use the Homies in the Forest to stall him.

Yep, and the same thing with Luffy. Luffy without Gomu Gomu, wouldn't have this level of stregth nor speed that Gear 2nd, Gear 3rd and Gear 4th provides him.

Strength isn't linear, that is quite obvious, and in One Piece Oda does a good job showing that. Still, a spectator(us readers) can compare things and make relations, and depended on the events we can reach conclusions.
Is one thing that you would say that Doffy Devil Fruit as a different impact with Cookies than it has with Rubber, and so Doffy could win against Cracker and not against Luffy. Other is saying that They are the same strength when what we have to compare them about is the fight against Luffy and Luffy embarrasingly was beating Doflamingo and was loosing agaisnt Cracker, with the same power.

Perona example, she won against Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Franky with a given ability, with no physical effect, and Ussop was able to evade that ability. Simple as that. You can't compare if Ussop is possible stronger than the others with this, because the difference was being able to evade that power.
A comparable case is Luffy against Enel, Enel defeated easily Zoro, Sanji, Ussop, Gan Fall, Wyper and Ussop. While Luffy defeated him. That still doesn't shows that Luffy is stronger than Ussop or Wyper, because the difference between those fight is the conductivity of the Electricity.
No such thing happened between LuffyVSDoffy and LuffyVSCracker they were mainly strength VS Strength battles with each person using their abilites as pure attack and pure defense. They had different characteristics, but nothing special enough to be change breaker of the result. Well in fact I would say the fact that Luffy could eat Cracker is change breaker :P, if he also could do with Doffy Strings, he would have beaten him even easilier.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 11, 2017

Bigivelfhq said:
Not it wasn't the only time. When Luffy made the Gomu Gomu no Organ, he also cut Luffy.

Wrong, he didn't.

Completely missed. Luffy dodged it.

Bigivelfhq said:
Don't forget that Luffy to defeat Craker didn't only need Nami Rain, no, they also had to use the Homies in the Forest to stall him.

Not really relevant. Cracker's clones are almost as powerful as Gear 4th. The Homies only protected Nami, they couldn't fight against Cracker or his clones.

Fact is when Luffy broke his clones, Cracker is not in pain. They're just puppets he controls. Cracker cannot fight without hiding behind something.

Only time he didn't hide behind his clone is when he thought Luffy couldn't move.

If Cracker was all that strong, it wouldn't take 1 hit to defeat him.

And also, Nami never weakened Cracker, she just weakened his biscuits. Cracker could still resort to fighting Luffy 1 on 1 with his Sword as he's a Swords man but he didn't because he knew if he should get hit he'd be done for.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 8, 2017 ---

Laxus pwns natsu said:
We saw Kuma speedblitz her so again they can speedblitz her luffy Sanji and sanji can outspeed her.

But I Do agree with certain advantages in fights nevertheless but not in this case. Ur looking at it like since luffy is physically stronger it means he stronger not every thing has to do physical power like I said be4 there is more to physical power in a fight so luffy>dd becuase he is stronger does mean he is stronger

Well, they themselves said they can't beat her. Plus, she wasn't fighting them with her real body, she hid it. Kuma just happened to have her when she was still in her real body.

Also, it's been stated that physical power is indeed proof a character is stronger. Monet acknowledged this fact.

What you're doing is yo have mistaken advantage for strength. An advantage doesn't make you stronger, it's just an advantage.

I also didn't say winning a fight is based n physical power, I'm only saying the advantage can't be dismissed and ignored like it didn't play a role. Joker isn't necessarily stronger than Luffy, he just has a massive advantage due to ability type.

Laxus pwns natsu said:
Yes if pre alabasa zero fought usopp with mr.1 DF it's mean he is stronger bro not if but or how. Simple becuase of his DF bro despite zoro being stronger physically (which I mention earlier).

It doesn't make him stronger, just advantaged. Anyone can have be advantaged, not everyone can be strong. Zoro would still be the stronger, Usopp is just advantaged. Again, the distinction between strength ad advantage goes amiss.

Laxus pwns natsu said:
Bro just becuase I can tank an attack doesn't mean I would like to take the hit. That like saying dd would get destroyed by g2 luffy becuase he took a hit a red hawk. Not every like taking pain becuase they take a hit it doesn't work that way obviously if I see an attack I wouldn't just stand there and tank the hit(even tho I can) when I can avoid that by dodging it. The fact of the matter he can take couple hits and till Continue to fight G4 luffy proves his durability/endurance it took luffy strongest attack (up to date) to finish him off.

I never said that he should tank. I'm just pointing out the fact that his ability gives him an advantage. It's common sense to avoid hits and use your ability the best way possible. The point is his ability gives him a very huge advantage.

He also doesn't have that much durability against Gear 4th if it only takes 4 attacks to incapacitate him. Had Luffy landed the 5th, Joker would have been done for.

He stands no chance against Gear 4th. Against Gear 2nd, he does have durability. He could have taken more than 5 of those, 100s even and he'd still be able to fight. Against Gear 4th? He stands absolutely no chance which is why he went into hiding for a good 20 minutes.

it's like calling a character durable for taking 5 Gear 2nd attacks and then passing out. Just 4 attacks and then hiding is not durability. That's being completely overwhelmed.

Laxus pwns natsu said:
Yes she took an attack like it was nothing proof she can withstand a G4 attack no problem.

Certainly not true, Why would she block with Hardened Armament if it wasn't capable of hurting her?

It would be like saying that Vergo blocked a slash from Tashigi with Hardening because he didn't see the possibility of being cut.

You don't block attacks with Hardening except they can hurt or will hurt. It's the ultimate defence.

Laxus pwns natsu said:
Luffy isn't gonna take down big mom with G4.

There is no basis to this statement when she had to block Gear 4th's most basic attack with Hardening. It's not like that was a King Kong Gun.

Bigivelfhq · Jul 11, 2017

Why dont you show the rest of the sequence of Cracker defeat, because it would disprove the one hit defeat right? I thought so.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 11, 2017

Bigivelfhq said:
Why dont you show the rest of the sequence of Cracker defeat, because it would disprove the one hit defeat right? I thought so.

Lol no.

Wrong buddy.

There's nothing Cracker did without his clone.

His clones are the only reason he could even challenge Luffy. He's not that powerful without his clones.

All the beating Luffy took, it wasn't Cracker fighting, but his clone buddy.

If Cracker, a swordsman was that strong, he wouldn't need clones to fight Luffy just like Big Mom doesn't need clones or homies to take on Luffy.

Bigivelfhq · Jul 11, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
Lol no.

Wrong buddy.

There's nothing Cracker did without his clone.

His clones are the only reason he could even challenge Luffy. He's not that powerful without his clones.

All the beating Luffy took, it wasn't Cracker fighting, but his clone buddy.

If Cracker, a swordsman was that strong, he wouldn't need clones to fight Luffy just like Big Mom doesn't need clones or homies to take on Luffy.

Amazing response! Totally doesn't shows your bias and is totally not evasion of the question.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 11, 2017

Bigivelfhq said:
Amazing response! Totally doesn't shows your bias and is totally not evasion of the question.

And you have no proof to provide that he's anything without his clones while I do in making the case that he is indeed nothing without his clones.

Hell, the funny and ironic thing is he crashed into his own clones and got knocked out. Rather Poetic.

catagon87 · Jul 11, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
Not really relevant. Cracker's clones are almost as powerful as Gear 4th. The Homies only protected Nami, they couldn't fight against Cracker or his clones.

One thing on this fight I don't really get is the whole "Nami was there, therefor Luffy had to 2v1 Cracker."
If it had simply been raining during this fight, what would be the excuse then? "The weather was in Luffy's favor!"?
I guess you could say Nami had the ability to pick and choose where she put the rain, but I still don't really get the whole argument that Nami makes the fight cheap when the whole basis of the fight was pretty unfair to begin with. Luffy got ambushed by someone with no knowledge about the guys' ability. So the whole fight is almost prefaced on being the "perfect pirate fight" in that both contenders were pretty damned unfair.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 11, 2017

catagon87 said:
One thing on this fight I don't really get is the whole "Nami was there, therefor Luffy had to 2v1 Cracker."
If it had simply been raining during this fight, what would be the excuse then? "The weather was in Luffy's favor!"?
I guess you could say Nami had the ability to pick and choose where she put the rain, but I still don't really get the whole argument that Nami makes the fight cheap when the whole basis of the fight was pretty unfair to begin with. Luffy got ambushed by someone with no knowledge about the guys' ability. So the whole fight is almost prefaced on being the "perfect pirate fight" in that both contenders were pretty damned unfair.

I think Nam's involvement made the fight fair in the sense that it was 5 on 1 from Cracker's side. All she did was make his biscuits wet & soft. If Cracker was that strong, And it's not like Cracker was weakened, rain doesn't make DF users weak unless they're submerged to a degree. If we had seen Cracker and Luffy clash, like he did against Big Mom or Joker in Gear 2nd after Law stopped interfering, then at least we'd know Cracker is strong without his ability, but he proved otherwise to me anyway.

The durability of those biscuit clones are also underrated. Strong enough to not be damaged by Gear 3rd and only breakable by attacks on par with Gear 4th. That's one hell of an advantage.

catagon87 · Jul 11, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
I think Nam's involvement made the fight fair in the sense that it was 5 on 1 from Cracker's side. All she did was make his biscuits wet & soft. If Cracker was that strong, And it's not like Cracker was weakened, rain doesn't make DF users weak unless they're submerged to a degree. If we had seen Cracker and Luffy clash, like he did against Big Mom or Joker in Gear 2nd after Law stopped interfering, then at least we'd know Cracker is strong without his ability, but he proved otherwise to me anyway.

The durability of those biscuit clones are also underrated. Strong enough to not be damaged by Gear 3rd and only breakable by attacks on par with Gear 4th. That's one hell of an advantage.

The Doflamingo thing is another point I often disagree on people with. I've seen the forums riddled with posts that Luffy at his fullest would lose to Doffy at his fullest because it was "2v1" with him and Law fighting Doffy. It was really Luffy and Law vs. Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy. Luffy and Law also were both pretty worn out. Law had to content with Fujitora AND Doflamingo before, and Luffy dealt with Chinjao and just getting to Doflamingo was pretty tiring in itself, while Doflamingo basically sat on his throne relaxing the whole time.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 11, 2017

catagon87 said:
The Doflamingo thing is another point I often disagree on people with. I've seen the forums riddled with posts that Luffy at his fullest would lose to Doffy at his fullest because it was "2v1" with him and Law fighting Doffy. It was really Luffy and Law vs. Doflamingo, Trebol, and Bellamy. Luffy and Law also were both pretty worn out. Law had to content with Fujitora AND Doflamingo before, and Luffy dealt with Chinjao and just getting to Doflamingo was pretty tiring in itself, while Doflamingo basically sat on his throne relaxing the whole time.

I think he was much more exhausted than Joker, but, I concede with they were both evenly fatigued since he did have his insides almost destroyed. He certainly rested a lot more than Luffy for sure.

His ability also requires 0 need for stamina which also allows him to conserve energy whilst fighting. How much an ability impacts a fight and favours one fighter is so underrated. Everything Luffy does is through his strength, stamina and durability whereas people like Cracker and Joker can literally sit back and fight without literally moving a muscle.

Fox666 · Jul 11, 2017

Generally speaking, Doflamingo is much stronger than Cracker. Cracker was a bad match for Luffy or Urouge, since he has advantage in hand-to-hand combat. But his ability is not very malleable and Cracker wouldn't be able to defend himself against Aokiji or Law abilities.

While Luffy and Law were active before fighting Doflamingo, this typically has little to no effect in One Piece. Similarly, Luffy was playing Brulee's clones before Cracker appeared. However Doflamingo withstood an attack by law direct on his organs which seemed to have drastically weakened Doflamingo. When Doflamingo was in good conditions, he wiped the floor with Luffy.

Doflamingo's kick bounced back when he kicked Luffy with Gear 4. However Luffy combined his rubber body with Haki hardening, and slicing attacks should be more effective. Luffy's arm was cut by Cracker while in Gear 4th, and he avoided Doflamingo strings.

I believe that a key element is that Doflamingo withstood several hits from Gear 4th, while Cracker's biscuit soldier was easily destroyed. It raises the question if Doflamingo couldn't destroy the biscuit soldiers with his strings if not with his bare hands. If that's the case, then Cracker is completely outclassed by Doflamingo.

Fuuji Genichiro · Jul 18, 2017

Hannibal Psyche said:
in essence, Joker would have been defeated within a minute or 2 if he had no strings to hide behind to stall.

This premise is fallacious. First of all, if not for gear 4th so exponentially increasing his power, (or giving him the ability to fly at least), luffy would be surrounded and killed just as quickly by doffy's awakening strings.

Secondly, Luffy having a devil fruit that directly benefits close combat naturally gives him an advantage in that area. Therefore using close combat ability to judge character strength gives Luffy a very "unfair" advantage as far as devil fruit ability is concerned. Gear 4th makes luffy physically stronger, faster and more durable. Awakening gives Doffy more powerful and numerous strings. Note that unlike luffy it doesn't affect his base physical ability. Therefore saying that luffy would destroy doffy in close combat is a pointless statement.

If Doflamingo's devil fruit is such a one sided advantage, then for sake of argument lets take both devil fruits away. Bearing in mind that doffly blocked an elephant gun one handed , and shielded against multiple diable jambre hits with no
thing but haki, base luffy won't be beating doflamingo. That said, if luffy is stronger with devil fruits involved, then who has the advantage of devil fruit ability?

Hannibal Psyche said:
If it takes a minute (less because it's not like Luffy charges his attacks) to land 3 attacks within close-combat quarters, it surely wouldn't take a minute more for Luffy to have executed:

Leo Bazooka which we saw at the 20th minute.

and King Kong gun after recuperating.

"If doflamingo had no defense, luffy's attacks would defeat him faster"
No shit sherlock. Believe it or not, fighting isn't always about who throws the hardest punch. If you can punch harder than me, but i can take punches better than you can take mine, then guess who wins?

That said, Gear4th as a boost makes luffy more powerful than doffy, without it, he isn't. You want to argue that Luffy is overwhelmingly more powerful than Doffy, but given the strengths and weakness of both characters even a slight difference in attack power between luffy's attack and doffy strings would give him an opportunity to close the distance and attack him. So it's more nuanced than that.

Now about cracker, this isn't really debatable. Without either having DF, Luffy doesn't stand a ghost of a chance.

Hannibal Psyche said:
Reality is also, Cracker fought using the same tactics and in the end, it only took 5 attacks from Gear 4th to defeat him.

See above explanation. If cracker can create more biscuits than luffy can break, then he is stronger. If not for luffy's ability to eat the biscuits and regain stamina from them.

Hannibal Psyche said:
This is why the fight took 11 hours because Luffy was constantly trying to get past these biscuits that he summons infinitely, but every time they're down, he just summons another making it nigh impossible to get to Cracker.

Do you know what a stalemate is? It's an equivalency of attack and defense. Cracker's main ability is the strength of his clones combined with their numbers . In theory he could easily just wear luffy to death because Luffy isn't powerful to destroy them faster than cracker can replenish them. From this perspective Cracker is more powerful than Luffy. Because the strength and numbers of his clones outweigh Luffy's speed and power and most importantly how long he can fight. It's similar to Naruto's shadow clone ability. Each individual clone is shit (pre timeskip ofc), but his strength is his ability to make thousands of them.

The reason cracker lost is because of his natural weakness being water, and him underestimating luffy. Luffy being able to stretch so much to eat his crackers is perhaps a convenient nuance in Luffy's favour aswell.

But fine. devil fruit unfair blah blah blah.

Cracker using his own haki and a sword cut gear 4th luffy. I'm not even going to argue who would win without a DF.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2017 ---

catagon87 said:
One thing on this fight I don't really get is the whole "Nami was there, therefor Luffy had to 2v1 Cracker."
If it had simply been raining during this fight, what would be the excuse then? "The weather was in Luffy's favor!"?

What if Usopp and Luffy were fighting underwater? Who would win?? And what would be Luffy's excuse for losing so easily.

M3J · Jul 18, 2017

Luffy was outmatched twice, although at least against Doflamingo it's more due to his Gear 4 having limits than just his opponent being superior. Doflamingo is pretty powerful, but if he had luck he'd have won even if the gladiators were helping Luffy. Cracker lost because of Nami's help.

I Am Atomic · Jul 18, 2017

If it is a 1v1 with no interruption with no previous encounters with each other, then Luffy will lose in both cases.

Luffy v DD. Its clear as day when Luffy got no stamina after G4 ran out and DD walking towards Luffy to kill him. If there was no interruption then Luffy is dead. For those who say that DD hid behind his strings until G4 ran out. I am like "Bruh, isn't that the sensible option?". In a fight you don't have to fight head on to win, especially when your DF is not melee based. Yes, G4 overpowered DD but he found out its weakness and fought sensibly. I give credit to DD.

Luffy v Cracker. Like I said above, it doesn't matter if Cracker hid behind his biscuits because it is his power. He can fight the way which is the best for him. In a fight between pirates all that matters is who won not how. Cracker hates pain, so he is clever enough to devise a fighting strategy which suits his character. Does that make him weak? No. If you say that Cracker without his ability would be useless, then what about Luffy without his DF? Luffy relies on it heavily. So, Luffy will get defeated.

Cracker v DD. I have to hand it to DD here. It is because his DF counters Crackers DF. He can use awakening to hold down the soldiers and get to Cracker even if he is hiding behind the soldiers. Doffy doesn't need to get close.

Don't say that person A's DF counters person B's DF and that's why..... Of course that is how fight works. Did we see Aokiji bitching about losing to Akainu was only because he is magma and i am ice? There is no 'if's' and 'not fair' in a fight. There are no rules! You can do whatever you want.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 18, 2017

Fuuji Genichiro said:
This premise is fallacious. First of all, if not for gear 4th so exponentially increasing his power, (or giving him the ability to fly at least), luffy would be surrounded and killed just as quickly by doffy's awakening strings.

Wrong, your statement here is fallacious rather.

Gear 4th was too powerful for Joker to fight against the same way he fought Luffy in Gear 2nd.

Clear difference in tactics.

Try explaining the difference in tactics when fighting against Luffy in base/Gear 2nd or Law as opposed to Gear 4th.

Fuuji Genichiro said:
Secondly, Luffy having a devil fruit that directly benefits close combat naturally gives him an advantage in that area. Therefore using close combat ability to judge character strength gives Luffy a very "unfair" advantage as far as devil fruit ability is concerned. Gear 4th makes luffy physically stronger, faster and more durable. Awakening gives Doffy more powerful and numerous strings. Note that unlike luffy it doesn't affect his base physical ability. Therefore saying that luffy would destroy doffy in close combat is a pointless statement.

Again, wrong.

In terms of advantage, Joker takes the cake with his ability.

Joker's ability has nothing to do with his strength.

Luffy's ability is entirely dependent on his base strength and his gears are impossible to achieve without a strong base.

Fact is Joker is far more advantage.

Luffy destroy Joker in close combat is a factual statement.

i you want to talk about fair, then everything regarding Joker's ability should make use of his strength, stamina, pain threshold, etc. It doesn't.

Fuuji Genichiro said:
If Doflamingo's devil fruit is such a one sided advantage, then for sake of argument lets take both devil fruits away. Bearing in mind that doffly blocked an elephant gun one handed , and shielded against multiple diable jambre hits with no
thing but haki, base luffy won't be beating doflamingo. That said, if luffy is stronger with devil fruits involved, then who has the advantage of devil fruit ability?

Lol no. His strings did that.

Even Fujitora got blown back by Gear 3rd whilst Joker didn't.

Your rationale becomes so painful erroneous when you see that even Fujitora can't casually take a Gear 3rd punch like Joker did. The only difference is ability type. Not strength. Nothing about Joker's ability is to do with strength.

If Joker would be hurt by Red Hawk, he'd definitely be hurt by Elephant Gun. Only difference is his Elephant Gun is such a huge attack whilst Red Hawk or any of Luffy's base/Gear 2nd attacks are not easily defended with strings.

Joker's ability is pure advantage, not strength.

Would be like saying that because Bartolomeo survived the King Punch, he's stronger than any character in the series. It's just an ability that gives him an excessive advantage.

Anyone can be difficult to fight when they possess a dangerous ability, but not everyone can take an ability like Luffy's and be strong enough to utilise it the same way.

Fuuji Genichiro said:
Now about cracker, this isn't really debatable. Without either having DF, Luffy doesn't stand a ghost of a chance.

Just a rehash of the Joker fight.

Cracker wouldn't even challenge Luffy head on except he couldn't move. Cowardly tactics. His clones were the only thing impressive.

catagon87 · Jul 18, 2017

Fuuji Genichiro said:
What if Usopp and Luffy were fighting underwater? Who would win?? And what would be Luffy's excuse for losing so easily.

Well if for some reason Luffy was fighting Usopp under water, obviously he would have a legitimate excuse in that he lost due to his weakness. Just like Usopp could probably defeat Akainu underwater, and BM under water, and Whitebeard underwater, and Cracker underwater, and any other DF user. The situation depends though. Luffy defeated Hordy Jones in a battle that largely took place under water. He had help from one of the Neptune triplets, does that mean he couldn't have defeated Hordy on his own?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 18, 2017 ---

Fuuji Genichiro said:
Now about cracker, this isn't really debatable. Without either having DF, Luffy doesn't stand a ghost of a chance.

How is this not debatable? Luffy's base strength is fairly strong, his endurance is way higher than Cracker's (he can take blows to the chest from Akainu and live to tell about it). His physical strength of his actual body is way higher than Cracker's. Cracker "hates all pain" and "can't even stand the prick of a needle". You need to reread that fight. Without his DF Cracker would have been instant toast to Luffy. The fight would have been Cracker having to land hundreds of blows against a faster, stronger opponent, and Luffy having to land a single blow against a weaker, slower opponent. On this point, I'm almost certain most of the biggest Cracker fanboys on these forums would agree with me.

Saying something isn't debatable doesn't just autowin you an argument, and it doesn't really apply here. Saying "This isn't really debatable. A three year old can't beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match". Okay, that's not debatable. That's an example of when to use ".. isn't debatable." Saying something like "Onions are sweeter than chocolate. This isn't really debatable." is not a proper way to use that.

Hannibal Psyche · Jul 18, 2017

I wouldn't say Luffy is superior per se, but his power comes at a cost and requires a strong base. Even against Moriah, the cost his ability comes at is highlighted.

Most abilities just require mastery in terms of control, only a few require mastery to control and a physically honed body. Law's ability would be similar as it requires stamina to function.

Joker and Cracker's do not. We even have Joker explicitly stating how his ability doesn't require stamina, just his being conscious. Anyone can take Joker's ability, be weak and still give anyone a run for their money. Doesn't require a honed body, doesn't require stamina nor even durability. Luffy's requires not just stamina, but physical strength and durability to withstand the stress it puts on him.

In terms of strength, I'd say Joker and Luffy are equal. In terms of DF advantage, Joker's is far more. Joker can defeat an army easily whereas Luffy would require stamina to do that despite the strength. Advantage one has in terms of DF ability must always be taken into consideration, otherwise, fights can't be judged fairly. We would end up believing Luffy was weaker than Caesar simply because he got defeated or, Luffy is weaker than Perona when it's all a matter of advantage.

Discussion Joker vs Luffy Fight Assessment/ Cracker vs Luffy Fight Assessment

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