Theory Kaido: Strongest Creature ≠ Strongest Pirate

Nunn

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It does they they were equal in strength, but Sakazuki still won. So even though it never explicitly states he won because of his DF, I'll stick to that theory for now.

You still don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say about titles.
 

catagon87

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I think nobody is thinking that Kaido is the strongest in OPverse so far. Fact is that during his introduction, it was emphasized that he got defeated 7 times, captured 18 times by the Yonko/Marines. So Kaido by no means is the strongest or invincible... His huge scar in his abdomen/obliques shows that he can injured as well

But it seems his body is truly unique because it is withstanding attacks or things that would be fatal to any other person, so I reckon his tanking abilities are abnormal even compared to let's say WB.

I have no doubt that WB was indeed the strongest following Roger, and that the other Yonko were in competition with him but still he was the strongest although his strength declined due to health issues

I also think Kaido's title has to do with his DF ability if he has it... Something like Chimera would make sense. As for Kaido's race, I'm tempted to say that he's probably a descendant of Oars
I think Kaido is probably a human who ate a Human Human fruit, modeled after the race that Oars is. The way he is as well, occupying the samurai country, partnered with Shogun, etc.. there is a lot of value in dying honorably placed on that culture. I would imagine maybe Kaido sparred with the previous ope-ope no mi user, and as an FU, the previous user gave him "immortality", thus creating his suicide hobby.
 

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Kaidou is strong enough that no Yonkou is challenging him or his crew, even after Kaidou was fighting the Marines. Either that or his crew is/was strong in their own rights. What's interesting is that if he is one of the strongest and seemingly indestructible, why hasn't he gone after the other Yonkou, the Marines, or shichibukai? Seems to be well behaved despite his strength, which means he either doesn't want to or likely has some sort of weakness, and he doesn't want to lose like that. At the very least, Kaidou should be able to take on the shichibukai, which would make the Marines weaker.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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It does they they were equal in strength, but Sakazuki still won. So even though it never explicitly states he won because of his DF, I'll stick to that theory for now.

You still don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say about titles.

It wasn't because of his DF that he won.




Can clearly see that Akainu was frost-bitten by Aokiji meaning Aokiji's abilities can freeze Magma.




And can clearly see Aokoiji has burns which means Akainu's abilities can burn him.



Jinbei even goes as far as saying they matched each other blow for blow. It's a given that someone comes out victorious despite being evenly matched, it's a death match. With that said, no one had a greater advantage, it was a mere battle of attrition.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Kaidou is strong enough that no Yonkou is challenging him or his crew, even after Kaidou was fighting the Marines. Either that or his crew is/was strong in their own rights.
Not exactly, it's not a big deal that no one is challenging Kaido.

Which Yonko is challenging Big Mom or Blackbeard who is the new kid on the block, or Shanks? None of them, they're all minding their own business.

Also, even the Yonko don't challenge themselves often, it's pretty rare. That's why:

  • Blackbeard is hunting the best DFs before going to war with other Emperors.
  • Big Mom is acquiring the power of the Germa66 to take on other Emperors.
  • Kaido is amassing Smiley DFs.
  • Shanks seemingly doesn't care, but we don't know what he's doing.
They're all gathering forces to battle it out for supremacy as Joker said.
 

Nunn

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It's not a given that there is a victor in a battle with two evenly matched opponents, it would be a stalemate if they were truly even.

Sakazuki could still have the DF with the advantage, and take damage from Kuzan's DF. He doesn't need to be immune to it to have the edge.

Jinbei says they were evenly matched, I believe that overall they are basically even, but that Sakazuki has the elemental advantage.

It's not confirmed either way, so until it does get confirmed, we both can have a basis behind what we believe.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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It's not a given that there is a victor in a battle with two evenly matched opponents, it would be a stalemate if they were truly even.
A death match implies someone has to die.

It is a given.

Maybe in a sporting activity there will be no winner, but in a battle where it's life or death, someone will lose, it's inevitable.


Sakazuki could still have the DF with the advantage, and take damage from Kuzan's DF. He doesn't need to be immune to it to have the edge.

That's not how DFs work.

If Akainu had an advantage, then Aokiji's DF wouldn't have been able to hurt him.

Magma can be frozen; Ice can be melted; it's a battle of attrition.


Jinbei says they were evenly matched, I believe that overall they are basically even, but that Sakazuki has the elemental advantage.
Then why does Sakazuki have frost-bite if he has the elemental advantage?

An advantage is Rubber against Electricity, this is not the case. It's a straight up battle where both can hurt each other with DF.


It's not confirmed either way, so until it does get confirmed, we both can have a basis behind what we believe.

It is essentially confirmed. They matched each other blow for blow as Jinbei said.

Nonetheless, there's no strongest Pirate out there, or they'd be considered closest to the throne like Whitebeard.
 

Nunn

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It doesn't matter if the battle is considered a "death match", if the fighters are equal in power. They could potentially both tire out at the same time and be unable to fight on.

You don't need to be a hard counter to another DF to have the advantage. Ace technically has an advantage over Kuzan DF, but Kuzan can still hurt him with his DF (putting aside tht Kuzan was much stronger anyways)

It is not essentially confirmed because clearly someone won in the end, so Sakazuki eventually got the upper hand.

There has to be a pirate that is the strongest, even if it is by a small margin.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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It doesn't matter if the battle is considered a "death match", if the fighters are equal in power. They could potentially both tire out at the same time and be unable to fight on.
That makes no sense.

You're saying that no one will die in a death match?

It's not a boxing match, it's a death match.

You don't need to be a hard counter to another DF to have the advantage. Ace technically has an advantage over Kuzan DF, but Kuzan can still hurt him with his DF (putting aside tht Kuzan was much stronger anyways)

Actually, he can't, that's why Aokiji didn't fight him.

Ace's fire completely melted Aokoji's Ice, it would have been a bad match up, therefore, Akainu was the best match up for Ace and we saw that when they confronted the other.




It is not essentially confirmed because clearly someone won in the end, so Sakazuki eventually got the upper hand.


What the Manga says contradicts what you're saying, there's really no truth or evidence to what you're saying.

Equally matched blow for blow means the Ice/Magma matched each other, there's no hint of advantage.

There has to be a pirate that is the strongest, even if it is by a small margin.

You say that, but where is the evidence? where is it mentioned in the Manga?

Where has it been stated about anyone being the strongest since Whitebeard? or anyone being closest to One Piece like Whitebeard to prove your point?
 
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Nunn

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If they can't kill eachother due to being equal in strength, how is it a death match? You can't just call it a death match and then magically be able to kill someone you could not kill earlier. So technically, it could end up being a stalemate.

If Kuzan got the jump on Ace, and was not ready, he would take damage from the ice. (Though let's honest, from what we have seen of Kuzan's abilities. He should have been able to beat Ace with relative ease due to the sheer scale, range and overall power of his DF attacks). And if fire can so easily melt ice, magma should have an even easier job.

No, the manga does not contradict what I'm saying. They may have been matched evenly initially, but Sakazuki won. Meaning he eventually got the upper hand. We don't know exactly what happened, but it isn't crazy to think his DF gave him the edge.

It's not mentioned anywhere that someone is the strongest. But logically, someone must be the strongest. And I think Kaido is the best candidate due to him being referred to as the "Word strongest living creature(thing/organism)".
 

Hannibal Psyche

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If they can't kill eachother due to being equal in strength, how is it a death match? You can't just call it a death match and then magically be able to kill someone you could not kill earlier. So technically, it could end up being a stalemate.


Clearly, it is a death-match, or they wouldn't be asking if Aokiji died.

Akainu just decided to spare his life even though he was supposed to kill him.

It was a death match nonetheless.


If Kuzan got the jump on Ace, and was not ready, he would take damage from the ice. (Though let's honest, from what we have seen of Kuzan's abilities. He should have been able to beat Ace with relative ease due to the sheer scale, range and overall power of his DF attacks). And if fire can so easily melt ice, magma should have an even easier job.
Aokiji would be burnt too if he was caught off-guard; works both ways. Irregardless, Ace's DF has the advantage since it puts out Aokiji Ice, and Aokiji's Ice doesn't put out his Fire. End of the day, Aokiji's ice was completely melted. It stood no chance.

No, the manga does not contradict what I'm saying. They may have been matched evenly initially, but Sakazuki won. Meaning he eventually got the upper hand. We don't know exactly what happened, but it isn't crazy to think his DF gave him the edge.

It does contradict what the Manga says. You're adding things that were never implied in the Manga at all. If DF was what gave Akainu the win, it'd have been said he had the advantage DF-wise, yet we're told they were evenly matched, so what you're saying clearly has no truth to it.


It's not mentioned anywhere that someone is the strongest. But logically, someone must be the strongest. And I think Kaido is the best candidate due to him being referred to as the "Word strongest living creature(thing/organism)".

You're just forcing there to be a strongest person when there isn't. Strongest Creature has nothing to do with being the Strongest Person; Shanks might be stronger than Arlong or every Fishman in existence - Fishmen as creatures are still superior nonetheless. It doesn't make him the best candidate, especially when he's been defeated 7 times as a Pirate and been captured 18 times in total.

I doubt Whitebeard or Roger were captured even once.

You can hold on to that opinion if you want, but it's not official nor is it fact.
 

Nunn

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My point is that even in a death match, it's possible for a scenario where both fighters get wounded to a point where neither can fight anymore, or both die. Just because it's considered a death match does not mean one person will die while the other lives.

True, Kuzan would get burned. But the Fire fruit is not a hard counter to the ice fruit, unlike the rubber is to the lightning fruit.

It does not contradict what the manga says as they leave the exact details of the battle unknown. They were evenly matched at the start, but eventually Sakazuki won. There is a lot of time in the middle where we do not know what happened. So I can guess what happened then without contradicting the manga.

Even if Kaido is not the strongest, somebody else must be. That's just how logic works, someone has to be the strongest.

And yes, Kaido is a good candidate to be the strongest, 7 losses is not very much at all for a long career of a pirate as reckless as Kaido. And it's even more impressive that he only has 7 losses and 18 captures when you realize that he attacks other yonko crews and the navy alone.

Regardless of if he is the strongest or not, he has a good track record.

You get annoyed at me for making assumptions, but then you make your own assumptions about WB and Roger? We can''t know if they ever got captured or not, but they most probably did not travel alone like Kaido does. And technically Roger was captured because he turned himself in.

Look, I enjoyed your initial post, and I can appreciate the time and work you put in. But we can't seem to agree on certain things, and it doesn't look like we will. Now I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy, but it's just not going anywhere. It was fun while it lasted, but now I gotta go.

Adios!
 

Hannibal Psyche

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My point is that even in a death match, it's possible for a scenario where both fighters get wounded to a point where neither can fight anymore, or both die. Just because it's considered a death match does not mean one person will die while the other lives.

True, Kuzan would get burned. But the Fire fruit is not a hard counter to the ice fruit, unlike the rubber is to the lightning fruit.

It does not contradict what the manga says as they leave the exact details of the battle unknown. They were evenly matched at the start, but eventually Sakazuki won. There is a lot of time in the middle where we do not know what happened. So I can guess what happened then without contradicting the manga.

Even if Kaido is not the strongest, somebody else must be. That's just how logic works, someone has to be the strongest.

And yes, Kaido is a good candidate to be the strongest, 7 losses is not very much at all for a long career of a pirate as reckless as Kaido. And it's even more impressive that he only has 7 losses and 18 captures when you realize that he attacks other yonko crews and the navy alone.

Regardless of if he is the strongest or not, he has a good track record.

You get annoyed at me for making assumptions, but then you make your own assumptions about WB and Roger? We can''t know if they ever got captured or not, but they most probably did not travel alone like Kaido does. And technically Roger was captured because he turned himself in.

Look, I enjoyed your initial post, and I can appreciate the time and work you put in. But we can't seem to agree on certain things, and it doesn't look like we will. Now I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy, but it's just not going anywhere. It was fun while it lasted, but now I gotta go.

Adios!
In defence of Roger, Shiki didn't believe that Roger was captured or could be captured because he knew how strong he was - it implies he was never captured unlike Kaido.
With that said, it is a reasonable assumption, and more so when Kaido is irrational and given to whimsical recklessness. Roger and Whitebeard aren't, so it's unlikely and very reasonable to assume they didn't get captured.

With that said, was a good debate.

--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
In the spoiler below, Big Mom says she'd have been able to defeat Kaido, Shanks and "even Whitebeard", reason I put in bold that phrase was because it emphasises that Whitebeard was an exception in terms of defeating unlike Shanks and Kaido; the phrase "even" distinguishes a thing or person from others as exceptional one way or the other, and in this case, it's strength. This somewhat puts into perspective that Whitebeard truly was the strongest despite Kaido's existence.
 

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Big Mom says she'd have been able to defeat Kaido, Shanks and "even Whitebeard", reason I put in bold that phrase was because it emphasises that Whitebeard was an exception in terms of defeating unlike Shanks and Kaido; the phrase "even" distinguishes a thing or person from others as exceptional one way or the other, and in this case, it's strength. This somewhat puts into perspective that Whitebeard truly was the strongest despite Kaido's existence.
I read it as her pointing out that she would have been able to defeat him before he died, rather than distinguishing his strength.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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I read it as her pointing out that she would have been able to defeat him before he died, rather than distinguishing his strength.

She said "long time ago", so it can't be just before he died. It's distinguishing strength because "even" distinguishes Whitebeard from the rest. It's like saying I'd be able to defeat Usopp, and Nami, and "even" Sanji; it's making a distinction.
 

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Forgive me for not reading any of the posts, but Kaido isn't the strongest pirate to me.

He's probably got the strongest Zoan type of something, that's why he's call the strongest creature.

He was never stronger than Whitebeard, so perhaps right now he could be the strongest pirate without WB around; but it's still up for debate since there are several candidates for the top rank.

He's taken some L's, but he keeps surviving them. Whoever can kill him would likely have the best offensive capabilities in the series, or close to it. Kaido is probably the most resilient or tanky fighter, but I'd wager there are a few with better combat ability. That said I'll wait until I see him in action.
 

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I feel like Kaido is a member of Oars/Oars Jr.'s species, but he's the "pinnacle" of that species, so to speak

You make a really interesting point about his introduction, on reflection it's more of a highlighting of his physical attributes than anything
He does seem to have quite a volatile temprament, especially when he drinks (forgot which chapter that scene of him and Kidd in the prison is in so I can't attach stuff)
 

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Analysis confirmed by OP magazine.


It is said that Kaido is the “strongest creature” among all living thing. Even though we have no information on what race he belongs to, he has a huge body like that of Giants. The strength of his body is also extraordinary, if you try to pierce him with a spear, the spear will break. The above is the information of Kaido that the public commonly know, but I witnessed Kaido himself in Kuri. He’s a user of devil fruit, and a mythical one as well, he transformed into a huge dragon. The moment I set my eyes on him, my body got stiff and I thought I was going to die. How intimidating. He’s on a whole different level than human. One can even say that he’s a “monster” that surpasses human wisdom. Member List With Their Overwhelming Power They Force the Strongs into Submission
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

 

TitaniumOxide

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Now that is one insightful translation. Thanks for sharing that with us. If it says officially that he is giantlike..does that mean he isn't one? It further supports the theory that Kaido is part of Oar's species but he may not have full blood.
 

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In before Kaido is an intelligent microorganism that infected a human host.
 

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The text about Kaido's race is vague. Big Mom also has an impenetrable body and is even taller than Kaido, yet she is just an overgrown Human.

One of the common theories is that Kaido is a dragon who consumed a Hito Hito no Mi model, if not an artificial fruit. Many of his features - hair, long mustache, horns, the "scales" Luffy mentioned - are more fitting for a dragon than a Human. This would also explain why he is called the "strongest creature" or the uncertainty about his race.
 
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