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Kaoz

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Basically at some point a few weeks ago, while going through the manga and discussing some aspects, I started theorizing that some additional parts were planned, but removed from the final product for whatever reason, but hints as to what could have been there still exist. There are two (major) instances I've found, both of which you can find below, the first one I believe to simply have taken place off-screen, the second one to have been removed entirely.

I don't have much else to say, obviously I don't necessarily expect everyone to share my point of view on these issues, but maybe it'll provide some food for thought. So without further delay:

(1) Black Jersey Brigade vs 2nd Court - Chapter 47.1, 47.2 (Flashback)

Story:
The BJB return to the camp and challenge 2nd Court to a Team Shuffle. They have to defeat all members of 2nd Court to win, in other words they can't lose any of the six matches. Estimated line-up (I included some results, but they're really just random guesses):
First Match: Tanishi 7-6
Second Match: Niou/Momoshiro 6-3
Third Match: Tooyama 6-0
Fourth Match: Yanagi/Inui 6-2
Fifth Match: Sanada 6-0
Sixth Match: Ryoma vs Migihashi 0-0 (Forfeit)
Migihashi is capable of hitting 6ao. Ryoma evolves from 5ao to 7ao during the match and Migihashi forfeits before the end of the first game (compare anime Ep 13). Migihashi gets to stay since he hasn't officially lost unlike the other members.

Justification:
1. Almost normal team shuffle since players like Sakata or Kadowaki realistically aren't strong enough to win these matches (i.e. different from anime where all of the BJB had to play, same reason why the conditions are slightly adjusted).
2. Line-up taken from the players that were in the focus in Ch 48 P 3 (it happens to be only those eight).
3. Tanishi becoming skinny as temporary boost; only character with such a drastic change that gets reversed immediately afterwards.
4.1 Migihashi having 9ao like in the anime would put him above Tooyama pre G10, which would be odd considering his position in the 2nd String line-up and Tooyama being able to handle Hakamada without too much trouble.
4.2 Ryoma going from 5ao to 8ao on the same day he got the former without it being shown seems equally weird, same with an improvement from 5ao to 10ao in a single match.
4.3 Ch 66 P 11. Tokugawa only wants to increase to rallying with 7 balls at first instead of 10. Could be random of course, but might also be the number that Ryoma last hit during a match.
4.4 Parallel growth to Tooyama. Tooyama went from 5ao (Mountain Camp) to 8ao (pre G10, 10 day shuffle) to 10ao (Match with Oni), so 5+3+2. With this theory, Ryoma would go from 5ao (Mountain Camp) to 7ao (Match with Migihashi) to 10ao (pre G10, 10 day shuffle). While not completely the same, the pattern of 5 (Mountain) +3 (10 days) +2 (Match) seems similar enough to be categorized as parallel.


(2) Top 10 2nd String High Schoolers vs Genius 10 - Chapters 53-64

Story:
Ch 53. Instead of waiting on No. 11-20, the G10 start their matches against the 2nd String High Schoolers. No. 1-8 are using 60% limiters. Estimated line-ups (included some made-up results again, mostly to underline my belief that the matches wouldn't have been complete blowouts for the most part):
First Match: Ochi/Mouri vs Migihashi/Yamato 7-5, 6-1
Second Match: Duke vs Hitsujida 6-1, 6-0
Third Match: Kimijima/Tohno vs Sekine/Kobayashi 6-1, 6-4
Fourth Match: No. 4 (not revealed) vs Kishimoto 6-0, 6-0
Fifth Match: Kaji/Ohmagari vs Taniyoshi/Ishimaru Forfeit (6-4, 3-0)
Sixth Match: Tanegashima vs Oni Postponed or Cancelled at an early stage
Seventh Match: Byoudouin vs Tokugawa Postponed
Yukimura and the BJB return from the revolution just before the start of or sometime during the sixth match and the Middle Schoolers challenge the G10.

Justification:
1. Yamato's name is hidden on the 2nd String line-up in the original chapter release (some of you might be unaware of this since it was already added in the Edited Manga), but displayed in the volume release. This could indicate that he was planned to make a surprise reappearance after declaring his retirement after the Tezuka match.
2. Tokugawa being part of the actual G10 matches as the only High Schooler. His inclusion means that it isn't a Middle Schooler only challenge, which either means that even the likes of Gin, Kite and Marui are stronger than the strongest members of 1st court (which is unlikely in my opinion) - or the other High Schoolers already got their chance and were defeated.
3. 60% limiters are taken from Kimijima's response to Tohno's question (Ch 69 P 20: makes it seem like 60% is their normal limit in these matches), as well Oni's statement (Ch 83 P 6).


Further justification for both of these instances would be that they bring some attention to 1st and 2nd Court and give them at least score lines. It would feel more consistent than having 3rd Court, the 11-20 and G10, but skipping over the two courts in between completely.


(3) The True Form of the 1st String

That said, did any of you actually try to put in Oni as No. 5 and just push everyone else down by one position? You get this if you do:

Code:
1. Byoudouin	11. Mouri
2. Tanegashima	12. Fuwa
3. Duke		13. Date
4. ???		14. Ban
5. Oni		15. Hakamada
6. Kaji		16. Mutsu
7. Ohmagari	17. Mutsu
8. Kimijima	18. Mitsuya
9. Tohno	19. Taira
10. Ochi	20. Hara
Now, if you put the bottom half into a line-up while keeping their doubles pairs as they were, you get this:

1st Match: Taira/Hara
2nd Match: Mitsuya
3rd Match: Mutsu/Mutsu
4th Match: Hakamada
5th Match: Date/Ban
6th Match: Fuwa
7th Match: Mouri
So doubles, singles, doubles, singles, doubles, singles, singles in that order. Sound familiar? It happens to be the same as the match order for the G10 matches that are happening right now.

It also gets rid of that ugly 23 -> 22 -> 21 -> 19 sequence for the singles spots and replaces it with a much nicer 24 -> 23 -> 22 -> 21 one, if that bothered anyone besides me.


If you then apply the order to the G10, you get this:

1st Match: Tohno/Ochi
2nd Match: Kimijima
3rd Match: Kaji/Ohmagari
4th Match: Oni
5th Match: Duke/???
6th Match: Tanegashima
7th Match: Byoudouin
So maybe that's how it originally looked like? We know at least that Kimijima didn't exactly seem happy with Tohno as partner, so that might not have been his choice, and we also know from the fanbook interview that Ochi/Mouri was just decided by the coaches at some point.


So yeah, discuss.
 
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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

Ok so, let's see what this thread has.

I really agree with most of the first part, and it's highly likely that it was a plan (having those 8 playing). Btw, Tanishi had so much screen time in NPoT that it would be simply dumb not to see him playing ANY real matches (as long as Kite is around, I don't think that any of the other Higa guys have a chance to get into the 1st string).

I don't really agree with the 4th point, Migihashi could have had 9 at once, and he could had been better than Kintarou pre-Hakamada, why not? he was chosen to play against the G 10 after all, he was prolly good enough to be part of the top 20. Also, Ryoma had already 10 at once when he practiced with Tokugawa at night. Imo Tooyama is growing slower than Ryoma, at least a bit.

About the second part... I have no idea, I totally missed the 2nd String line-up (never saw it before... could you link me please?).

IMO they didn't play at all... why would they just postpone S2 and S1? that doesn't really make sense.

This page says "we will include the middle schoolers when we create the match order", it doesn't say that it would have only Middleschoolers...

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/5523...prince_of_tennis_ch_066.005.jpg?v=11324870171

...but I still don't wanna believe that Tokugawa was chosen (lol), I think that it was actually Ryoma and that it is a MS challenge. We still don't know who will end up playing for the No 1 spot, nor the 4th.

---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------

I wanna ask something. If Akutsu was supposed in the original line up to play against Oni, who was going to play doubles with Sanada?
 

Kaoz

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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

I don't really agree with the 4th point, Migihashi could have had 9 at once, and he could had been better than Kintarou pre-Hakamada, why not? he was chosen to play against the G 10 after all, he was prolly good enough to be part of the top 20. Also, Ryoma had already 10 at once when he practiced with Tokugawa at night.
Why would being a 2nd string chosen to play against the G10 mean that you're on par with the 11-20? It seems logical that the 11-20 are at least a bit stronger than any of the 2nd stringers, otherwise they wouldn't have those spots.

Of course there are exceptions in Kazuya, Irie and Oni, but they were in the focus a fair bit and also occupied the top 3 spots of the 2nd String ranking. We haven't been given any reason to believe that Migihashi is stronger than what his court suggests and he's also only No. 11 in the line-up.
Migihashi also has a pair puri profile, but to my knowledge there's nothing mentioned about him being stronger than 2nd court.

And I know that Ryoma already had 10ao when he practiced with Kazuya, which means he definitely increased the number of balls off-screen, but the question is by how much. Kintarou did by 3 and while it might be random like I said, Kazuya only wanted to increase the number of balls by 2 at first.
With those two numbers you get the 5 (Mountain) + 2 (vs Migihashi) + 3 (Off-screen).

Imo Tooyama is growing slower than Ryoma, at least a bit.
Well, if you don't see it that way, there's nothing I can really do about it. I think they do given how they both met Tokugawa and Oni and they both gained 5ao at the same time as well.

About the second part... I have no idea, I totally missed the 2nd String line-up (never saw it before... could you link me please?).
http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/5523/04-050.0/compressed/d050.10.jpg?v=11309070108
Apparently this version still has the old page, so you can actually see what I'm talking about. As you can see, the list has only 19 names on it and there's a name in the bottom left which we can't see. In the volume release of this chapter, that's revealed to be Yamato.

IMO they didn't play at all... why would they just postpone S2 and S1? that doesn't really make sense.
Maybe postpone was a bad choice of words? Basically while all the other HSers were replaced by MSers, Kazuya is still part of the line-up - why is that? The best explanation I can think of is that everyone besides him already got to play and lost.

Oni isn't part of the line-up anymore for obvious reasons, but a match between him and Tanegashima at that point probably wouldn't do any good for either of them. So I figured it wouldn't have happened either.

I wanna ask something. If Akutsu was supposed in the original line up to play against Oni, who was going to play doubles with Sanada?
Given that Sanada went out of his way to find a new partner and nobody actually complained when Akutsu stepped on the court in their stead, it was probably Kintarou.
 

Kaoz

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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

First of all, discarding the second point. Gonna keep it in the OP in spoilers, but yeah.

That said, did any of you actually try to put in Oni as No. 5 and just push everyone else down by one position? You get this if you do:

Code:
1. Byoudouin	11. Mouri
2. Tanegashima	12. Fuwa
3. Duke		13. Date
4. ???		14. Ban
5. Oni		15. Hakamada
6. Kaji		16. Mutsu
7. Ohmagari	17. Mutsu
8. Kimijima	18. Mitsuya
9. Tohno	19. Taira
10. Ochi	20. Hara
Now, if you put the bottom half into a line-up while keeping their doubles pairs as they were, you get this:

1st Match: Taira/Hara
2nd Match: Mitsuya
3rd Match: Mutsu/Mutsu
4th Match: Hakamada
5th Match: Date/Ban
6th Match: Fuwa
7th Match: Mouri
So doubles, singles, doubles, singles, doubles, singles, singles in that order. Sound familiar? It happens to be the same as the match order for the G10 matches that are happening right now.

It also gets rid of that ugly 23 -> 22 -> 21 -> 19 sequence for the singles spots and replaces it with a much nicer 24 -> 23 -> 22 -> 21 one, if that bothered anyone besides me.


If you then apply the order to the G10, you get this:

1st Match: Tohno/Ochi
2nd Match: Kimijima
3rd Match: Kaji/Ohmagari
4th Match: Oni
5th Match: Duke/???
6th Match: Tanegashima
7th Match: Byoudouin
So maybe that's how it originally looked like? We know at least that Kimijima didn't exactly seem happy with Tohno as partner, so that might not have been his choice, and we also know from the fanbook interview that Ochi/Mouri was just decided by the coaches at some point.
 

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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

Hasn't been Mouri playing with Ochi for a while already and that he "shines" at doubles? Wouldn't it be wasted potential?

Why did you discard your 2nd theory?
 

Kaoz

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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

Hasn't been Mouri playing with Ochi for a while already and that he "shines" at doubles? Wouldn't it be wasted potential?
Well, what I posted is like 7 months ago status in my opinion (so beginning of this school year), which would still qualify as a long time I'd say. And it was said that Mouri doesn't cut it in singles, but I think that's for G10 level (since everyone's stats seem to get compared to their current ranking in the explanation), and he'd still be perfectly fine for the 11-20.

Why did you discard your 2nd theory?
Because I lost the point that supported it the most.
 

Kaoz

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Re: [Theory] Shin Prince of Tennis Version 0.X

It just occurred to me that I've never posted this (or if I did it was somewhere in the hangout and screw searching through that), but does anyone remember this?

Retcon incoming. Remember the matches between the 11-20 and the 2nd String HSers? Konomi changed those a bit in the fanbook:

Code:
Tokugawa Kazuya		Migihashi Itarou
Oni Juujirou		Miyako Shinobu
Irie Kanata		Washio Issa
Kishimoto Masato	Suzuki Shun
Handa Yoshimasa*	Matsudaira Chikahiko
Taniyoshi Kigarashi	Kobayashi
Ishimaru Mihito		Hisajima
Nakagauchi Sotomichi	Miyamoto
Sekine Kazuyoshi	Takei Toshio
Yamato Yuudai		Yukimura Seiichi

*Was wrongly translated as Hitsujida Torimasa before.
vs No. 11-20
No. 11 Fuwa vs Yukimura
No. 12/13 Date/Ban vs Nakagauchi/Miyako
No. 14 Hakamada vs Matsudaira
No. 15/16 Mutsu/Mutsu vs Washio/Suzuki
No. 17 Mitsuya vs Kobayashi
No. 18/19 Taira/Hara vs Handa/Miyamoto
No. 20 Akiba vs Irie

vs G10
Tokugawa
Oni
Kishimoto
Taniyoshi
Ishimaru
Sekine
Yamato
Migihashi
Hisajima
Takei

Takei is the obvious change here, he faced Mitsuya in the original release. It's unclear whether the position of any of the generic HSers was changed.
After making that post, I was wondering if there wasn't a way to satisfy both the fanbook information and what we had gotten to see in the chapter. After all, it seems quite weird to draw this, just to move Takei to the G10 challengers afterwards for no reason at all.

So who could have defeated him? Mitsuya apparently played against Kobayashi and it seems unlikely that he retired two high schoolers before facing Yanagi and Inui, so it probably wasn't him. Akiba then? It didn't seem like he had met anyone before Irie, so I don't think it was him either.

Now, I'm thinking that it actually was Irie himself who did that to Takei. Considering that Irie was No. 3 of the 2nd string, there's basically no way he was actually supposed to face a number so far below his own - but is it plausible that Takei should have faced Akiba? Given that he was the weakest 2nd stringer who made the list, I'd say yes. Adding to that, the 11-20 kinda mirrored their opponents' abilities, and Takei is a power player according to the fanbook.

This can also be supported by the coaches' reaction when Irie returns after beating Akiba, they seemed surprised at his appearance, so maybe he was never supposed to go anywhere in the first place?

Lastly, when looking at these two pages, you will notice how there are locations shown, maybe that's where those players were defeated? And as you can see, for Takei it doesn't show a court, but a random pathway.

So basically the idea is that Irie slipped away from the rest of the top 10 challengers, told some random guy to stand in his place, went after Takei, beat him up before he reached the courts, and finally just went to challenge Akiba himself.
 

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Re: Random Theories

My random theory is that this is all a dream brought on by Yukimura and we are still at Nationals match between Ryoma and Yukimura.
 

Kaoz

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Re: Random Theories

I'd like to update one of the old theories here and also add a new one, although the "new" one isn't entirely new.

Starting with the update, I want to reorder the "original" 1st string roster slightly. This just concerns the G10 though, so I won't bother listing the rest again:

Code:
1. Byoudouin
2. Watanabe
3. Irie
4. Tanegashima
5. Oni
6. Kaji
7. Ohmagari
8. Kimijima
9. Tohno
10. Ochi
Putting that into a standard line-up:

Code:
1st Match: Tohno/Ochi
2nd Match: Kimijima
3rd Match: Kaji/Ohmagari
4th Match: Oni
5th Match: Irie/Tanegashima
6th Match: Watanabe
7th Match: Byoudouin
Reasoning: we know that Irie was supposed to be part of the 1st string before Tokugawa joined the camp. So what number is the most likely for him? Oni was No. 5 before he gave up his spot and he became the 5th court guardian afterwards. Tokugawa was aiming for the No. 1 spot and joined 1st court. Finally, Irie was part of 3rd court, so chances are his spot was supposed to be No. 3.

This isn't anything too new and I'm sure I've talked about this with several people before. The real update here is to put Duke as No. 2 and Tanegashima as No. 4 as opposed to the other way around. But I think it makes sense that way for two reasons.

First, I still think that Irie and Tanegashima were a doubles pair and going by the pattern that's 3/4 and not 2/3. However, second and more importantly, Tanegashima is supposed to be equal to Oni, so wouldn't it make a lot more sense for them to be right next to each other on the line-up as opposed to three spots apart? So this looks pretty good to me.

Of course it also means Tanegashima improved enough to overtake Duke over the course of the year.




Now for the somewhat new theory. Those that have been around for a while may be familiar with my obsession over how the 9/10 challenge match developed, and also that I believe Ochi stopped using Mach against Niou during the tiebreak. We know Niou can't return Mach and that Ochi's serves never miss, yet the 2nd string must have scored when Ochi was serving and Niou was receiving here, or else they wouldn't have been able to make up a 6 point deficit. Now, the big question is why would Ochi do that?

I think the answer lies in the Q&A from the fanbook:

Q17: Ochi takes meticulous care of maintaining his tennis racket, does that mean he’s the OCD type?
A17: When I drew Ochi, I imagined him as a warrior.
I think in this particular part, Konomi means that to Ochi the racket is like a weapon, so he takes good care of it. But if he imagined him as a warrior, that probably extends beyond racket maintenance. So what if Ochi stopped acing Niou because Niou became unable to hit ZSS? If it's a matter of honor or pride for him, similarly to how he allowed Kabaji's point, I could definitely see that and it would clear up one mystery.
 
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Hardy

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What if using Mach too many times in one match would risk his racket, and he doesn't want to break it no matter what, so he rather risk the match itself?
 

Kaoz

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What if using Mach too many times in one match would risk his racket, and he doesn't want to break it no matter what, so he rather risk the match itself?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I doubt that's it. If Mach damaged the racket somehow I think there would've been some indication for that.
 

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No I wasn't sarcastic, I actually thought your theory was going there, as silly as my pseudo-theory sounds ^^'

Well, the indication could be that he stopped hitting it '-'
 

Kaoz

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No I wasn't sarcastic, I actually thought your theory was going there, as silly as my pseudo-theory sounds ^^'

Well, the indication could be that he stopped hitting it '-'
No, what I meant was that he either felt he won the serving battle, or that he wanted to keep fighting on even ground. Since his opponent became unable to use his weapon, Ochi stopped abusing his too.

I was more thinking along the lines of the racket strings making some unusual sounds or something for that. Also, he could've just switched to a different racket and then fix them up again after the match.
 

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I like the Idea that seeing the grounded and seemingly insignificant player Niou had become on the court up to that point that Ochi would ease up on him, it adds a whole new depth to his character and like you said it's that kind of personality that puts his Allowing of Kabaji to be in perspective.
 

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Any idea who was the original no.4? Ryoga was met by the 1 stringers aboard, does it mean that he defeated the original no.4 and the original no.4 was badly injured and not being able to return to the camp?
 

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Any idea who was the original no.4? Ryoga was met by the 1 stringers aboard, does it mean that he defeated the original no.4 and the original no.4 was badly injured and not being able to return to the camp?
Probably not. Nobody ever mentioned that any old player was missing, so chances are there simply wasn't a No. 4 before Ryoga. Maybe they kept a spot open for Oni or something in case he decided he wanted to return. If you look at my ranking above, exclude Irie and you get Oni at No. 4. Which would mean that Ryoga's appearance screwed over Kaji. That said, I think it's much more likely that Konomi just kinda glossed over that bit though.

---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 AM ----------

To clarify what I mean with the Oni thing, Oni retired as No. 5 for sure. But maybe they figured they definitely wanted him on the team for the WC, so they "reserved" a spot for him or something.
 

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Probably not. Nobody ever mentioned that any old player was missing, so chances are there simply wasn't a No. 4 before Ryoga. Maybe they kept a spot open for Oni or something in case he decided he wanted to return. If you look at my ranking above, exclude Irie and you get Oni at No. 4. Which would mean that Ryoga's appearance screwed over Kaji. That said, I think it's much more likely that Konomi just kinda glossed over that bit though.
However, the couches did pick 20 players to play against the 1st stringers. They apparently didn't expect Ryoga to show up. So I am guessing there should be someone that got replaced by Ryoga. It is definitely not Oni as he was picked as one of the guys to face against the 1st stringers. Otherwise, the couches would just pick 19 players to fight against the 1st stringers.

According to my theory, I would say Kaji was actually a G10ers (either no.4 or no.5) but he got replaced by Oni due to the shown up of Ryoga. In terms of stats Kaji was even slightly stronger than some of the the No.6-10 players.
 

Kaoz

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According to my theory, I would say Kaji was actually a G10ers (either no.4 or no.5) but he got replaced by Oni due to the shown up of Ryoga. In terms of stats Kaji was even slightly stronger than some of the the No.6-10 players.
I'm not sure what you're saying here? Kaji was No. 5 when the 1st string returned.
 

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I'm not sure what you're saying here? Kaji was No. 5 when the 1st string returned.
Well, so I first assume that both Kaji and Oni are originally part of the G10ers along with the others. When the 1st stringers went aboard for training. Oni didn't go and someone replace Oni's position. That guy was soon replaced by Ryoga. Before the MSers vs the 1st stringers matches, since Oni wanted to play and therefore, he defeated Kaji to seize a 1st stringers spot. It would be reasonable for Oni to challenge Kaji instead of Ryoga since Ryoga's strength is unknown. As a result, poor Kaji got kicked out from the 1st stringers.
My supporting argument is that the couches actually picked 20 2nd stringers to versus the 1st stringers. If the no.4 spot was empty, the couches would probably only pick 19 2nd stringers to face the 1st stringers. The couches didn't expect Ryoga to show up. However, they still selected 20 2nd stringers which may hinted that someone else would represent no.4 and play against the 2nd stringers. It is not Oni since Oni was chosen to represent the 2nd stringers.
 

Phantron

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Well the original U17 team also went without their #2 so there's at least one vacant spot.

I'd say either Ryoga killed the former #4 or he was executed by Byodoin for failure. Or he fled the team when he realized since Tanegashima bailed out he's got to play someone who can do a glowing shot.

Speaking of which, what would be the punishment for Irie given that his attempt to bring out Atobe's potential turned out to be not exactly good for the Japanese team, at least at the moment?
 
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