but as Luffy himself has explained while using gears his abilities are multiplied and in G4 he was that much more stronger than Doffy and attacks received from him did nothing!
Yes, but no matter how much stronger he gets those defenses are because of DF. You claim that those DF defenses dont matter at all because Haki will bypass them. Do you see how you got yourself in a corner which you cant exit from?
You got this part right. Haki is mostly irrelevant in this situation. Hakiless Luffy beats armament defense simply because of greater force. In case of Katakuri he had both greater force and greater Haki so it was extra hurtful for Luffy - his hands swelling...
Ok, so seeing that you understand that. You/We are using semantics.
DF changes the physical composition or gives a person an ability. I.e. Rubber Man, Gas Man compared to Quake user, String User....A Gas Man would be impossible to touch or hit w/e haki or chemical components to make such gas solid..COA makes whichever part is grabbed Solid..I.E Real Body....
You don't have to like the term, but you should agree. It's a senseless debate to get into, with others. Cause so see you understand the effects COA has on DF users..
Also it's Semantics about getting through to their defense. Luffy cannot be hurt by Physical attacks. Haki is needed. That's his DF defense being broken...Being a rubber man he only shares a few natural weakness as every other human..Getting cut is one of them...With Haki any human or DF user can guard against a blade, cut or puncture. Those with DF abilities that already resist such attacks I.E Buggy cannot be cut..Will take damage against a Haki slash..& if its a Haki showdown between Buggy n someone else, Buggy would who receive a small wound, if he himself doesn't dodge the attack fully
Because in G4 he is that stronger than him to the point Doffy is fodder in comparison to that transformation
Yes, but no matter how much stronger he gets those defenses are because of DF. You claim that those DF defenses dont matter at all because Haki will bypass them. Do you see how you got yourself in a corner which you cant exit from?
Your underestimating G4 and overestimating Doffy i think, in G4 Luffy was that much stronger that is why Doffy's attacks were nothing to him, again Luffy DF defence is in regards to blunt force not cutting dont try and push abilities the Gomu Gomu no Mi doesnt have on Luffy!
Again, defenses due to DF which you claim are bypassed by Haki...
He meant his overall strength and also his ability does not give him immunity to cutting attacks, he blocked the attack thanks to his haki and strength increase from his transformation!
Right there, Doffy vs g4 Luffy panels that I linked. It failed to bypass those DF defenses.
Luffy without Haki beating Boa sisters defense with Haki. Greater force beats defense even with Haki. In case of Jozu the main problem is hardness of his element on which we both agree.
A Gas Man would be impossible to touch or hit w/e haki or chemical components to make such gas solid..COA makes whichever part is grabbed Solid..I.E Real Body....
Yes it makes the Gas solid but I dont think it forces that gas part into real body because, based on encounter with Caesar his head should have been blown off which it wasnt, head was completely gone after the hit, it means it remained Gas but it was a hittable gas because Haki made it hittable...
Haki is the same, it doesnt increase thanks to gears. The higher defense of G4 is thanks to DF, you claim it can be bypassed by Haki and we have a different result in Manga.
What defence are you talking about?
Him being able to block Doffy's cutting attacks with his haki is part of his DF's defence?
Haki is the same, it doesnt increase thanks to gears. The higher defense of G4 is thanks to DF, you claim it can be bypassed by Haki and we have a different result in Manga.
Did you forget the blunt force of Lucci's Six King pistol?
Luffy without Haki beating Boa sisters defense with Haki. Greater force beats defense even with Haki. In case of Jozu the main problem is hardness of his element on which we both agree.
Yes it makes the Gas solid but I dont think it forces that gas part into real body because, based on encounter with Caesar his head should have been blown off which it wasnt, head was completely gone after the hit, it means it remained Gas but it was a hittable gas because Haki made it hittable...
Force great enough will damage Luffy - Katakuri slamming him into a wall. Lucci raping Luffy without Haki...
Only if their Haki is significantly stronger.
I have no idea how Buggy would deal with Haki slashes so I will hold off with my answer to that.
OK, Now I understand you. Good Example. Boa Sisters were using low form of COA. I'm sure Advance Haki is harder to surpass with brute strength, a block mochi vs Luffy's fist situation should be the outcome.
Glad we've come to an understanding. I can't speak for others. but When that term real body is thrown around, we aren't saying the person can no longer use their DF powers, like with seastone. It's simply just that they are now human when it comes to physical contact between that user. Not that their whole DF powers are now mute.....Only Black Beard with Yami DF does that, reason as to why his fruits power is strong....It's just how some like to use that term. But I understand you being technical about its usage.
Lets agree to disagree. I realize we are getting slightly off-topic.
That's a given, need not be stated. Reason to why Luffy was hurt by Doffy's cutting strings at 1st. But when in G4 it gets blocked.
Please Don't paraphrase me like that. That's definitely not what I said. Lol
He was immune completely to Doffy's kick. Doffy landed a clean hit and it did nothing, he couldnt bypass the DF defences. Whether its blunt force or not he was completely immune.
Did you notice the elasticity in that moment? Haki is not an issue as Doffy has previously shown to be able to hurt him through his Haki. Elasticity is what changed the game, thats a defense thanks to DF and it wasnt bypassed, same like Jozu's diamond grade hardness, granted by DF, wont be bypassed by haki attacks, unless they have the force behind them capable of damaging diamond.
OK, Now I understand you. Good Example. Boa Sisters were using low form of COA. I'm sure Advance Haki is harder to surpass with brute strength, a block mochi vs Luffy's fist situation should be the outcome.
He was immune completely to Doffy's kick. Doffy landed a clean hit and it did nothing, he couldnt bypass the DF defences. Whether its blunt force or not he was completely immune.
Did you notice the elasticity in that moment? Haki is not an issue as Doffy has previously shown to be able to hurt him through his Haki. Elasticity is what changed the game, thats a defense thanks to DF and it wasnt bypassed, same like Jozu's diamond grade hardness, granted by DF, wont be bypassed by haki attacks, unless they have the force behind them capable of damaging diamond.
Again you are failing to realise that when Luffy transforms his overall abilities get multiplied!
Show me once where haki ailed to bypass an abilities defence, and as i have said repeatedly now gomu gomu no mi's defence is blunt force dont show me panels of cutting attacks since that doesnt prove your claims correct
[/QUOTE]Written above, Doffy failed to bypass elasticity - defense granted thanks to DF.[/QUOTE]
Because Luffy blocked with haki man!
He was clad in Haki yes, which previously wasnt an issue for Doffy, but elasticity neutralized that attack...
AGAIN your not understanding Luffy's transformations, when he transforms his abilities get multiplied, elasticity didnt neutralize the attacks it absorbed the force and the attack was blocked by his HAKI
Im still waiting for you to show me a panel of a COA attack failing to do anything to a devil fruits natural defence!
Again you are failing to realise that when Luffy transforms his overall abilities get multiplied!
Show me once where haki ailed to bypass an abilities defence, and as i have said repeatedly now gomu gomu no mi's defence is blunt force dont show me panels of cutting attacks since that doesnt prove your claims correct
And how is that different to Jozu's defences multiplying in diamonds form?
I showed you that panel of Doffy's kick on G4, it didnt bypass his defences, Haki is irrelevant here becuase he didnt have trouble with his haki in base form. It doesnt matter if blunt force or slicing, he was completely immune to that attack, thanks to his DF, not thanks to Haki.
AGAIN your not understanding Luffy's transformations, when he transforms his abilities get multiplied, elasticity didnt neutralize the attacks it absorbed the force and the attack was blocked by his HAKI
I understand it, DF allowed him defense which previously wasnt possible. Haki, according to you, is supposed to bypass that DF granted defense.
Same for Jozu, DF granting him defense so good that only those attacks which have the power to damage diamond will do something. Haki wont change anything here.
If you dont mind, I would drop this here. If we didnt agree on this so far, I doubt we will any time soon. It's best to wait and see if Jozu ever comes into the play again.
Are you forgetting that his transformation increase his abilities?
And how is that different to Jozu's defences multiplying in diamonds form?
I showed you that panel of Doffy's kick on G4, it didnt bypass his defences, Haki is irrelevant here becuase he didnt have trouble with his haki in base form. It doesnt matter if blunt force or slicing, he was completely immune to that attack, thanks to his DF, not thanks to Haki.
I understand it, DF allowed him defense which previously wasnt possible. Haki, according to you, is supposed to bypass that DF granted defense.
Same for Jozu, DF granting him defense so good that only those attacks which have the power to damage diamond will do something. Haki wont change anything here.
If you dont mind, I would drop this here. If we didnt agree on this so far, I doubt we will any time soon. It's best to wait and see if Jozu ever comes into the play again.
And that transformation is thanks to what? Thanks to DF. DF-granted increased abilities(defense). You said haki bypasses it and we clearly see Doffy not bypassing it. You claim its bcs of Haki while he had no issue with Haki previously.
You are making a double standard here between Luffy's DF based defenses and Jozu's DF based defenses, it's the same thing. Haki wont bypass it.
Even tho it was cutting attack, something that Luffy is weak against, he was unscratched lol, again, thanks to his DF based defense which Haki is supposed to bypass according to you...
I am not dropping it for seeing a mistake, I clearly gave you examples that Haki didnt bypass DF given defences. I am dropping it because you are ignoring those scenes and we going in circles for few rounds already. If we see Jozu again, we will see who will get to say "I told you so".
And that transformation is thanks to what? Thanks to DF. DF-granted increased abilities(defense). You said haki bypasses it and we clearly see Doffy not bypassing it. You claim its bcs of Haki while he had no issue with Haki previously.
You are making a double standard here between Luffy's DF based defenses and Jozu's DF based defenses, it's the same thing. Haki wont bypass it.
Again did Luffy tank the kick or block it with haki?
Even tho it was cutting attack, something that Luffy is weak against, he was unscratched lol, again, thanks to his DF based defense which Haki is supposed to bypass according to you...
Everytime we have seen haki used it has bypassed the defence given by devil fruits, you claim otherwise and yet you still haven shown me 1 panel even after 2 days of this!
I am not dropping it for seeing a mistake, I clearly gave you examples that Haki didnt bypass DF given defences. I am dropping it because you are ignoring those scenes and we going in circles for few rounds already. If we see Jozu again, we will see who will get to say "I told you so".
@Shasha23 Luffy tank'd the kick it wasn't blocked. You are debating semantics with Nik...Haki does pierce through DF defensives, as long as the person has the sufficient strength to do so. Doffy is inferior to Boundman physically. So doesn't matter that he used Haki, that still wasn't enough to hurt Boundman...Katakuri on the other hand punched Luffy in his gut with a Haki Donut Mochi Punch and it dealt Good damage.
You guys are debating the subject the the overall objective. Exceptions don't make a statement false. Haki Can Bypasses DF defensives. The special circumstance is when someone has a really strong DF ability, average or slightly above moderate users will see high resistance.
Block Mochi is Equal to Boundman...Ex. Boundman Punches through his Block mochi guard twice!..Boundman Is Luffy's heavy hitting form.
Snakeman on the other hand, isn't aboce Block Mochi, he was still receiving damage from clashing with Katakuri's Block Mochi.
I have to disagree with you because Oda has not consistently shown Luffy receiving Blunt damage with no Haki...Moria in an enhanced form stomped and pummeled Luffy and the kid jumped back up with no worries or injury..It's too inconsistent for me. Lucci also didn't star to do any damage until shock technique's, Jaguars have claws on their hands and feat...So yea just to inconsistent, i'm not saying your wrong. There's just room for both of us to be right
To simplify this in hope you finally understand...
Both times Luffy shielded with Haki.
One time Doffy hurt him, the other time Doffy didnt hurt him.
Whats the difference? Only in the usage of the DF.
You claim that no matter what defences DF gives you Haki will bypass it.
As you can see Haki didnt bypass it. You claim Luffy shielded with haki, I counter with Luffy shielded the first time too and it didnt help. The only difference in those 2 inctances is application of DF, which according to you is irrelevant because Haki will bypass it whether its diamond or rubber...
Everytime we have seen haki used it has bypassed the defence given by devil fruits, you claim otherwise and yet you still haven shown me 1 panel even after 2 days of this!
@Shasha23 Luffy tank'd the kick it wasn't blocked. You are debating semantics with Nik...Haki does pierce through DF defensives, as long as the person has the sufficient strength to do so. Doffy is inferior to Boundman physically. So doesn't matter that he used Haki, that still wasn't enough to hurt Boundman...Katakuri on the other hand punched Luffy in his gut with a Haki Donut Mochi Punch and it dealt Good damage.
You guys are debating the subject the the overall objective. Exceptions don't make a statement false. Haki Can Bypasses DF defensives. The special circumstance is when someone has a really strong DF ability, average or slightly above moderate users will see high resistance.
nik says haki only affects logia fruit users and disregards all the evidence shown in the story that haki bypasses all DF defenses not just logias!
Luffy didnt tank the hit, he blocked it, tanking is what Kaido did when Luffy was hitting him, Luffy clearly used haki to block the hit!
It doesnt matter how strong your abilities defense is, if you get cleanly hit by a haki attack you will take the damage.
Jozu might be diamond but if he gets hit by a haki attack it will damage him, the only way will be for him to also block with haki.
For the sake of argument lets assume that Jozu has no CoA and that his normal defense is 0.
But the fruit provides him diamond grade defense.
Krieg-tier opponent has CoA and attacks Jozu.
What do you think will happen? WIll Jozu get injured at all?
To simplify this in hope you finally understand...
Both times Luffy shielded with Haki.
One time Doffy hurt him, the other time Doffy didnt hurt him.
Whats the difference? Only in the usage of the DF.
You claim that no matter what defences DF gives you Haki will bypass it.
As you can see Haki didnt bypass it. You claim Luffy shielded with haki, I counter with Luffy shielded the first time too and it didnt help. The only difference in those 2 inctances is application of DF, which according to you is irrelevant because Haki will bypass it whether its diamond or rubber...
Luffy has already stated this and ill repeat it again, when he transforms into his gears his abilities increase, thats why he can block in his transformed state and cant in his weaker normal form!
Haki didnt bypass because Luffy blocked with his haki man, if he had tanked the hit it would be a different story but he didnt, he blocked with haki!
let me simplify this for you, Goku in normal state cant block or deal damage to Jiren but after transforming he can deal damage and block why? because he transformed into a higher state that allows him to use even more power!
The reason Luffy runs out of haki so fast is because he is using more of it at once making it stronger but also he drains it faster, the level of COA he uses in his normal state is nothing compared to the level of haki he can use in his G4 form!
Like I said, I showed you one single panel where it didnt work. Up to you if you will accept it or not but it's clearly there.
Gomu Gomu no mi gives defence for blunt force show me one panel of a haki user punching Luffy and the haki attack not affecting him and ill agree with you!
Showing me a panel of a cutting attack is not prove of anything since the Gomu Gomu no Mi does not give defence for cutting attacks!
As I said, shown.
He blocked with Haki in both cases, it only worked in one case and the only difference is DF application.
I wont bother with this case anymore, if you wanna think that I'm wrong do so.
Again Luffy in base cant block because he is weaker but in G4 he can because his abilities ar multiplied allowing him to block attacks like that easily
You still have not shown me 1 panel where haki does not bypass a DF defences!
For the sake of argument lets assume that Jozu has no CoA and that his normal defense is 0.
But the fruit provides him diamond grade defense.
Krieg-tier opponent has CoA and attacks Jozu.
What do you think will happen? WIll Jozu get injured at all?
It will deal no damage because they are not relative in strength, but for someone relative in strength to jozu lets say Katakuri, he can easily damage him using haki if Jozu does not block with his own!
You my friend have missed something here, if opponents are close in level and Jozu just tanks a COA hit with his ability and doesn't use COA to counter, he will get damaged, it doesn't matter if the person fighting him can destroy diamond or not!
Luffy has already stated this and ill repeat it again, when he transforms into his gears his abilities increase, thats why he can block in his transformed state and cant in his weaker normal form!
He blocked with Haki in normal form too and got damaged. Same attack blocked with Haki in g4 form didnt damage him. Why? Because of DF.
The difference is raw strength between normal form and boundman form and that difference comes from DF, something you claim should be bypassed while it clearly isn't...
The reason Luffy runs out of haki so fast is because he is using more of it at once making it stronger but also he drains it faster, the level of COA he uses in his normal state is nothing compared to the level of haki he can use in his G4 form!
He is using more of it quantity wise, not quality wise and he is suppressing his body to not expand further. CoA quality is same in both forms. I have no idea where you get that theory that Haki is better in g4 compared to normal form. No one yet claimed this before you.
Again Luffy in base cant block because he is weaker but in G4 he can because his abilities ar multiplied allowing him to block attacks like that easily
Haki doesnt get stronger in gear as explained before, this argument is irrelevant. His stats change only because of DF and thats something you claim is bypassed by Haki.
You my friend have missed something here, if opponents are close in level and Jozu just tanks a COA hit with his ability and doesn't use COA to counter, he will get damaged, it doesn't matter if the person fighting him can destroy diamond or not!
This is the core of our disagreement. I say there is no way to damage Jozu unless you can damage diamond. DIamond is harder than anything else we saw, it wont be bypassed by Haki if the user isnt able to damage diamond grade hardness.
He blocked with Haki in normal form too and got damaged. Same attack blocked with Haki in g4 form didnt damage him. Why? Because of DF.
The difference is raw strength between normal form and boundman form and that difference comes from DF, something you claim should be bypassed while it clearly isn't...
He is using more of it quantity wise, not quality wise and he is suppressing his body to not expand further. CoA quality is same in both forms. I have no idea where you get that theory that Haki is better in g4 compared to normal form. No one yet claimed this before you.
Did Luffy use his haki to block? or did he tank it with his gomu gomu no mi defence that is immune to blunt force damage?
Haki doesnt get stronger in gear as explained before, this argument is irrelevant. His stats change only because of DF and thats something you claim is bypassed by Haki.
which haki bypasses whose defence now? does Luffy's own haki bypass his own ability? is that really what your trying to say
This is the core of our disagreement. I say there is no way to damage Jozu unless you can damage diamond. DIamond is harder than anything else we saw, it wont be bypassed by Haki if the user isnt able to damage diamond grade hardness.
So to damage a defence granted by an ability you need the strength to damage said ability and haki doesnt mean anything in your eyes?
So for you haki was introduced to only work on logias and Luffy but not for other abilities? can you please explain this headcanon of your because i dont get it!
No, that's not what I am trying to say. You claim that attackers Haki bypassed defender's DF given defences. Luffy's defense is better in G4 thanks to DF, Haki is the same so the only difference is DF given.
So to damage a defence granted by an ability you need the strength to damage said ability and haki doesnt mean anything in your eyes?
So for you haki was introduced to only work on logias and Luffy but not for other abilities? can you please explain this headcanon of your because i dont get it!
Basically yes. You wont destroy Pica's rocks if you dont have the power to destroy rocks. Applying Haki to it will just make your attack stronger a bit.
The same case for Jozu, he wouldn't be anything special if it was that easy.
Armament Haki simply reinforces your attacks, the core of the attack is still the raw power behind it, Haki is just an additional layer.
Against Logias, it will allow the user to touch them and treat their DF bodies as solid objects even tho they arent solid. Against already tangible bodies like Luffy's, it will simply make the attack stronger. Luffy may be a special case as there have been some irregularities with him iirc but Jozu isnt.
For example, if the attacker isnt strong enough to damage diamond but is really close to it then application of Haki will push him above that threshold. However, if the attacker is nowhere close to damaging diamond then application of Haki wont change anything.
If Jozu additionally supports his diamond grade hardness with Haki then it becomes slightly even harder...
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