Bowser

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I need confirming on somethings because I don't quite understand

Saiki is when you increase your wisdom power and predict the numbers of shots takes for you to win the point right? But do you always win the point? Or is it to do with physical capabiltiies?

Teni is like God pretty much.

About Hyakuren...it doubles everything...but how does it minimise fatigue? Does my question only rules for Tezuka because he can use the zone?

Thanks :d

[sai] Just clarifying the title[/sai]
 
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Fayte

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Re: Muga?

Saiki is all a mind game. As if you were playing chess, you predict what your opponent will do. The only time this would deem ineffective, would be if you would go against someone with a higher thought capacity in terms of prediction. Chitose was beat by Tezuka, because Tezuka was able to make a better prediction to how the points will play out. Tezuka could not read Sanada because he is too unpredictable. That is essentially what "shadow" is.

As for Hyakuren, it only minimizes fatigue for Tezuka, because he isn't moving. The Tezuka zone is essential, to actually hit the shots back to the opponent.

For example, if you use Hyakuren in your arm, you will run slower. Since Tezuka has the zone, the negative side doesn't matter.
 

DavenSodan

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Re: Muga?

Hm and since there is no PoP after all the question is what exactly happend to Echizen in his match against Yuki... I somehow believe it is an advanced form of the Hyakuren, because your whole body is covered in it and the shots wont just double but will be five or six times faster... even w/o your opponent hitting a ball at you or not.
 

Sai

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Re: Muga?

I'll try to give the most detailed explanation I can....might be in multiple parts since I'm at work right now.

Let's start with Muga no Kyouchi

Literally this means State of No Self or State of Self Effacement. I have no idea why it was ever called State of Self Actualization; that honestly makes no sense.

With Muga the user goes into a trance where he is able to inherently access every technique he has ever seen or some in contact with (with the exception of the zones, like tezuka zone or nanjirou zone). The reason for the name is because the user almost literally loses himself. The state will automatically access the techniques by pure instinct (i.e. Echizen isn't actually choosing to do which techniques in a sense...or rather the best choice comes to him instinctively). The downside to Muga is the incredible stamina drain from not making conscious decisions like slowing down, etc. Basically, while in Muga you're always going all out. This is similar to Inui's match against Renji where he "threw away" his data and played with pure instinct and physical ability. He looked as if he was running out of energy quickly. This is the same with Muga, massive stamina loss.

When Chitose was introduced he developed the "Muga Theory" further by explaining the Three Doors Beyond Muga.

At this point in time it was assumed one could only open one of the Three doors. It was basically like a pathway you had to choose and couldn't go back to choose another. Tezuka later proved you could access more than one.

The Three Doors are:

Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami
Saikikanpatsu no Kiwami
Ten'imuhou no Kiwami


First Door: Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Mastery)

[Yes, I quite like the Viz Translation, its a lot better than my initial translation of Hard Work]

The implication is that this pinnacle is achieved through the hard work and mastery of your physique and techniques. This lets you focus the explosive power of Muga to different parts of you body so that you can return a shot with 2 times the power and spin as it was hit to you. Ryoma showed that you can move the aura to your legs to move twice as fast (running with 2x the force as usual?). The Draw back here is that it require you to be able to catch the ball to return it in the first place. Also, the technique is a massive energy drain just like normal Muga. Tezuka overcame these disadvantages with the Tezuka Zone. He never had to chase down the ball and could instead force it to come to him.

This ends this post, I'll post what I know of Saiki when I get back home and can double check some things in my 40.5
 

DavenSodan

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Re: Muga?

Well, as Nanjiro said there is no PoP so in Chitoses explanation/theory there might be more errors... we dont know, and we as well dont know what kind of Muga Echizen achievend in the end.
 

Atobe the king

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Re: Muga?

There definitely has to be a PoP...well not necessarily, to me it's like zen tennis..swinging for the fences but the ball isn't going out XP

I'd like to add to Sai's definition of Muga with a theory. I think the primary reason for the stamina loss in addition to the fact that the body can't pace itself is that the body is doing things it's not supposed to do. A lot of muscle memory is involved in tennis and muga ignores that..

Lets take 3 special techniques...Kamio's rhythm, Akutsu's sliding, and Ka

Kamio is fast because he's naturally, Ryoma isn't as quick as Kamio copying his rhythm and running quicker than he should be would theoretically be murder on your body.

Akutsu can slide because he is naturally tall and lanky...Ryoma is 4'11,,,his body is not meant to do that..it would tire him out.

Sanada's Ka, Sanada is a very powerful guy, trying to mimic a smash with that much wind up would tire anyone out..look at Kirihara..he lost his grip of his racket.

This is why i think Muga makes you tired.
 

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Re: Muga?

Continuing on with the 2nd Door...

Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Great Wisdom)

The name Saiki Kanpatsu can also be read as "a flash of brilliance". 40.5 describes it as allowing one to "instantly predict the flow of the game". It's been quite a while since reading those chapters, but if I recall correctly, Chitose achieved this after years of research into Muga and thus this seems to be achieved through intellectual endeavors. This seems safe to assume since Tezuka is definitely the kind of person that is an intellectual, which would explain how he achieved the state. This technique seems to be limited by the number of variables in a match. For example, it cannot be used in doubles as that requires you to predict twice as many people. I have a small inkling that this may only be able to "evolve" in a sense to include doubles if the user's brain can learn to cope with the information overload. As this is a "brainy" technique, it would seem it should only be limited by the brain's capacity. This is only my theory of course.

Furthermore, Sanada's "In" which works by sending mixed signals to someone's prediction screws it up because one cannot ascertain Sanada's true intent. This would then mean that Saiki would be susceptible to Atobe's World of Ice as well since that takes place in a frozen instance of time.

Saiki is essentially the opposite to Hyakuren. Where as Hyakuren deals with a person's mastery of his physique, Saiki deals with a person's mastery of his mind.

Now to go reread the last volume to come up with the Ten'imuhou theory.


So the final door....

Ten'imuhou no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Perfection)

Early on Chitose believes Kintarou to have been the closest to achieving this. I honestly have to agree with him at that point in the manga even after learning how it is achieved. I see the key to achieving it as attaining a state of mind. It is attaining the perfect attitude for playing tennis. If Hyakuren is the embodiment of the physical aspect of tennis and Saiki, the embodiment of the mental powers of tennis, then Ten'imuhou is the attainment of the perfect attitude. Nanjirou doesnt says Ten'imuhou doesn't exist in that the attitude is what everyone begins with. I mean obviously it exists and it does amazing things, but I think what Nanjirou was emphasizing was that despite all it's abilities, the most important thing was bringing you back to that joy and happiness of being able to play. That desire to want to play just to play.

I see it as attitude makes everything. I mean what's the point of being able to do something if you don't enjoy it? Muga essentially takes you out of the game. Hyakuren is tiring and over works you. Saiki is basically studying and reading too much into stuff. Ten'imuhou however is having fun and that is what ties everything together and makes the ability.

As for what Ten'imuhou does? I think it'll probably be explained more in depth int he new series when we finally get to see more Ryoma. So far it seems to give you super abilities like serving so fast only a camera can catch it and to scare Yukimura. Other than that, we don't really know much about what it really does except make you the perfect player.

Anyhow that ends my theory on all aspects of Muga. I may append things as time goes on, but that's how I see everything right now.
 
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bax

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Wouldn't it better to put Ten'imuhou as the perfection of the soul instead of attitude? I think it's going back to Nanjirou's explanation. You don't enjoy tennis (or anything else for that matter) with your physique or with your brain. Might as well explain why Kintarou was labeled the closest one at that time because he's the type who purely enjoys tennis. You could say it's the feeling part of you. Well, at least it completes the trinity (mind, body and soul) with this :XD

As for how it works, I'd go with the idea that Ten'imuhou is actually going back to the root, after all Nanjirou gave an example mentioning the past. It's something really simple, in which even Nanjirou said it's in everyone. Simply short, it is achievable by anyone, as long as you're able to completely put aside everything unnecessary to play the game.

For me, Ten'imuhou is the "back to the basics" condition. In return it enhances your awareness and increases your play in general, due to the elimination of unnecessary restrictions (worry, anxiety, pressure, team responsibility, etc). I think someone who entered Ten'imuhou will always have it as long as they're not restricted again by the above things. Nanjirou is shown to be really strong until now despite not being in competitive matches for a long time. Playing with his eyes closed shows that he has great awareness in his game. In which, Fuji also somewhat reached this part when he was playing in blind, much to the shock of everyone else. Although at that time he was driven by his feeling towards Tezuka instead of his feeling about the fun in tennis.
 
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