Hangout Mokushiroku no Yonkishi Hangout Thread

[Kiki]

MangaHelpers Awards 2019 has just kicked off! Come join us!​

 

[kkck]

So.... was there a point to ban looking exactly like rou? Rou has died just about twice by now and is due a reincarnation but so far as I can tell there has been no payoff for that bit.

 

[Arjuna]

Here are the weekly manga rankings for January 14 - 20

Rank｜This week's sales by copies｜Cumulative sales｜Titles

*1.　338,843　*,338,843　Kingdom Vol.53
*2.　184,289　*,184,289　Nanatsu no Taizai Vol.35

 

[Rikudou King]

of course it was stated she was blessed of course, and they explained what the blessing was which was the immunity for commandment curses. Yeah so are we comparing SD to ludo now? ludo cannot grant someone being immune to commandments that out of his league. Isn't the initial premise about how grace was BLESSING coming from SD? why do u think that mael was affected by darkness and the grace automatically left his body. It would be your burden of proof to prove that goddesses gets a blessing from SD, yes grace are a blessing from SD.

Exactly, so if we know the Supreme Deity specifically has a blessing to protect against curses, a blessing that doesn't appear to be under her control once given, why are you assuming that her only blessing is the Graces and they have anything to do with protecting against curses when nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned in the series regarding them. I brought up Ludociel as proof that there are multiple type of blessings shown, since it stands to reason anything he can do, the Supreme Deity can do also. As I said before, A blessing is far different from THE blessing - No one is denying that the Graces are a blessing, the issue here is you claiming they are the only blessing the Archangels were given. Neither the idea that the Archangels were only given a single type of blessing, or that the Graces have any additional abilities beyond what has been stated has been shown, so the burden here is on you to prove that claim. My claim, that the curse protection is separate from the Graces is easily proven by Merlin...

huh how does that prove it being a physical object? Zeldris states what the commandment do after the user dies, and it doesn't prove anything to be a physical object. Black orb represents physical object? people in taizai CAN TOUCH souls literally souls and does that mean souls are physical objects? you're going with logical reality perspective when fiction allows people to touch something which us people who read cannot touch. Not only that IT WAS cleared HOW you can remove the commandment via incantation so yes it doesn't change anything.

If the characters are physically holding and interacting with them, then they are physical objects. As fdor souls, yeah, they are also p0hysical obejcts in this series... Early on we saw souls physically touching the living and interacting via those two dead children... What us the readers can do have nothing to do with what is true within the manga's reality. And yeah, if they have to literally go where the commandment is to get it back, that shows it's not something metaphysical.

 

[Ger]

Exactly, so if we know the Supreme Deity specifically has a blessing to protect against curses, a blessing that doesn't appear to be under her control once given, why are you assuming that her only blessing is the Graces and they have anything to do with protecting against curses when nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned in the series regarding them. I brought up Ludociel as proof that there are multiple type of blessings shown, since it stands to reason anything he can do, the Supreme Deity can do also. As I said before, A blessing is far different from THE blessing - No one is denying that the Graces are a blessing, the issue here is you claiming they are the only blessing the Archangels were given. Neither the idea that the Archangels were only given a single type of blessing, or that the Graces have any additional abilities beyond what has been stated has been shown, so the burden here is on you to prove that claim. My claim, that the curse protection is separate from the Graces is easily proven by Merlin...

i never said her blessings are only the graces.... I don't know why you keep misinterpreting my point.

again no goddesses without grace or implication of getting a blessing makes them invulnerable to commandments i.e mael.

If the characters are physically holding and interacting with them, then they are physical objects. As fdor souls, yeah, they are also p0hysical obejcts in this series... Early on we saw souls physically touching the living and interacting via those two dead children... What us the readers can do have nothing to do with what is true within the manga's reality. And yeah, if they have to literally go where the commandment is to get it back, that shows it's not something metaphysical.

uh.... You do realize ban can touch meliodas in purgatory DESPITE only being an emotion right? You're appealing to sense of reality in our world which fiction intends to bend. most characters in taizai can touch a soul THAT is completely intangible in our point of view unlless u dont believe in spirits.
So it is a slippery slope to call them physical objects in the first place when character are shown to touch intangible beings and such, so this is pretty moot point to refute that commandments are not physical in nature.

 

[Rikudou King]

i never said her blessings are only the graces.... I don't know why you keep misinterpreting my point.

again no goddesses without grace or implication of getting a blessing makes them invulnerable to commandments i.e mael.

You literally said that you couldn't get a blessing from the Supreme Deity unless you have a Grace, which is completely false as shown by Merlin. You then disagreed with me and said it was my burden to prove the goddesses get a blessing from her... which is just ridiculous. My entire point has been that nothing we've seen implies Mael lost any of his other blessings when he lost his Grace, which was a specific situation, and the example of Merlin shows that the commandment protection blessing would stay with him regardless what side he was on.

uh.... You do realize ban can touch meliodas in purgatory DESPITE only being an emotion right? You're appealing to sense of reality in our world which fiction intends to bend. most characters in taizai can touch a soul THAT is completely intangible in our point of view unlless u dont believe in spirits.
So it is a slippery slope to call them physical objects in the first place when character are shown to touch intangible beings and such, so this is pretty moot point to refute that commandments are not physical in nature.

Not sure how that disproves my point? Emotion Meliodas was shown a physical being, interacting with the world the same as everyone else. And what are you talking about? The rules of "our world" have nothing to do with what is true of a fictional story... Yeah, in the real world, ghost aren't real, but we're not talking about ghost in the real world, we're talking about fictional things in a fictional universe. There isn't any reason to try to apply real world logic to the verisimilitude of this story, cause by that logic none of the characters are physical...

 

[Rikudou King]

right and i put more context what i said and it seems you clearly missed the whole context, which i was aware what i was saying. Mael was never received BLESSING from SD exception of his grace, that is your burden of proof to prove it. Merlin on the other hand was stated to have a blessing, so theres a difference between them.

No you really didn't. That would make no logical since, why would the Supreme Deity not give her soldiers protection against the enemies that they were fighting. Without any protection, they would be massacred by the Commandments... And no, we were told specifically their immunity to curses were thanks to her Divine Blessing. If it was due to the Graces, that would have been stated, but the Graces have never been referred to as "Divine Blessing", and in fact later in the chapter the Graces are reference directly.

even tho emotions ARE not physical beings? there was no statement or implications emo mel turned into physical being, even though that is again your burden of proof. Meliodas also stated that his emotions is basically his soul, so nothing of your refutation has no correlation to any of the evidence that has been shown so far in the series. Fictional BEINGS can touch souls who are intangible by default, but you say commandments ARE touchable because characters touched it. That's called a false equivalence, commandments went THROUGH the cocoon but you CANT have a physical object going through a physical wall unless you're like flash where you disassemble your atoms to the point you go through it. THATS literally the whole point, which you're implying that characters can touch therefore they are physical things even though i already debunked that notion. Can ghost be touch? answer that then were good to go with this argument either way, if you answer it yes or no it literally debunks your whole point.

Again, you're trying to use real world logic here... They can't be intangable if they can be touched, by the very definition of the word. We outright saw Emotion Meliodas interact not only with other people, but the environment too, the same with the other souls and such. We saw him injured and bleeding. Nothing has been shown to suggest that the souls of the Nanatsuverse are intangible "by default". If anything, we were shown differently with the early Capital of the Dead arc and with Monspeet, who showed that souls have a mass via his technique. Again, it's your burden to prove otherwise. Show when a soul was shown intangible.

Perhaps you should reread that chapter. The commandments burst through the cocoon, literally causing an explosion. They didn't phase or slide through, which would of been the case if they were intangible. Not only that, but Merascylla's commandment broke out of the tube she was in, again not phasing or sliding out.

 

[Rikudou King]

yeah but theres no statement regarding goddess gets blessing from SD unless they are specifically given a grace OR blessing itself. Which 4AAs were the only ones that can fight the commandments so no goddesses aside from them could fgo agaisnt commandments. Grace are literally divine blessing that came from SD herself, so this isl iterally a common sense for all of us.

The other goddesses were involved in the fighting too, and we saw they had just as much of a chance of running into the Commandments, so not giving them protection makes no sense. He states, "The Divine Protection", a name not a reference. The Graces are a blessing, but nowhere were they ever named as Divine Protection. Even when Ludociel was explaining about them, he never gave them any name other then Graces. And he says "like them", but that would make no sense if the reference was about the Graces since the Archangels are the only ones with the Graces and there wouldn't be anyone else like them. Nor would his comment later about the Graces being unimpressive make sense, if they had these additional powers.

oh my god... The whole point is this CHARACTER are not normal humans, they are superhumans capable of touching souls and im not even implyinga real world logic here, you're the one who's implying that it would the case. Souls in fictional world can be injured if the physical object CAN TOUCH the souls themselves, there's been many cases of this in many shounens not just NNT. Soul IS ALWAYS intangible why do you think someone's soul in NNT gets extracted through the body instead of physically coming out of their body?? this is literally a common sense, you're appealing too much to where Souls can be touched in fictional world when IM referring to the character that has superhuman capability of doing so. Commandments never caused an explosion so nice try to reverse the burden of proof on me, actually that was melascula WHO broke the tube not the commandments. Hence the word called "resonating" coming from merlin says so.

Are you fully aware that souls CAN be touched NOT BY ALL people but characters themselves, because characters in taizai TOUCHED them because they are capable of manipulating souls especially Demon clan and goddess. So its literally your fallacious logic to come at me saying souls are physical objects you haven't shown it would be. Souls can be touch by the character WHO can touch souls themselves. Souls themselves are astral not physical manifestation. If they aren't astral then you wouldn't be seeing souls coming out of someones body THROUGH not physically opening their body to get out. So its logical fallacy in this case.

You are the one implying real world logic by claiming that souls are by default intangible, when the series has never shown that, and then arguing it's "common sense" and the case in other series. We have never seen a soul or ghost do anything connected with intangibility, like float through something - even when they're extracted, they come out of the mouth. The fact that they have to come out of an opening shows an example of them being physical. And we see more then just the demons and goddesses touching souls, which is the point. I literally brought up that we have examples of souls interacting with the environment itself, something that wouldn't happen with an intangible object. Again, we literally had a human character kill herself and go to the land of the dead, where she ended up getting bloody and nearly being killed... as a soul...

I literally gave you the link of the commandments creating the explosion as they entered the cocoon, so what are you talking about? And what? Merlin literally says it's the commandment doing the resonating. How could it be Merascylla resonating with the commandments when the entire point of her capture was that she was powerless?

 

[Rikudou King]

alright when did they get a blessing from? i dont recall SD giving any goddess blessings. So that's burden of proof on your part. Of course grace are blessings due to the fact they CAME FROM SD herself, unless you have any refutation. I won't reiterate what i said.

Probably at the beginning of the war. Moot point, given we lack the same knowledge about the Graces as well. I have supplied my proof, a character literally stating that the immunity from curses is from Divine Protection, from the manga itself. You are the one who has yet to provide any proof from the manga of your claim.

Because they are intangible??? i literally stated earlier that these characters can touch the soul because they had the ability to. Holy knights cant touch no soul nor shown to have but the sins could due to their nature. Okay so ghost not being intangible but yet it can go through many objects, and look how the souls melascula manipulated WENT through a physical objects body. That literally debunks your argument, you keep this retort where you can't back your claim. Ghost are intangible within the series itself but the fact that they ARE intangible is due to the nature of the characters touching them. Tarmiel is actually intangible where he cannot be touched if he uses his grace but yet estarossa after shrouding him with darkness did. This is the same thing fro bleach, bleach usually runs with souls BUT YET they run through many physical objects and then we have showing having blood on his face despite being stated to be a ghost that is no longer a physical being from the human world. ghost are intangible where humans cannot touch them, no human character was injured in capital of the dead unless you're talking about guila going there.

First off, by the very definition of the word, if something or someone can touch it, it wouldn't be intangible. That aside, you're wrong. We saw both Guila and Ban interact with souls, and they are both humans. So that right there disproves your claim. And no, we don't see how the commandment came out, only that it was out. The fact that it had to break the tube to escape shows that it was tangible, else it would have just flowed out. Not to mention story-wise, that would make no sense. Merlin's whole goal was to keep it from the others, and she's knowledgeable about the commandments. So why would she place it in a tube unless she believed that would keep it locked away.

Bleach had a whole different set of rules, so that doesn't prove anything. In Bleach, souls are also invisible and connected to the body with a chain, which is not the case in the Nanatsuverse. I literally mentioned Guila when pointing that out.

how is that an explosion?? what part DID the commadments destroy?? all they did was went through and nothing damaged the cocoon. That's literally your blind visual interpretation of the scene.
Melascula WAS being pulled out along with her commandment, so NO commandment GOT out of the tube and merlin literally stated melascula is going out on her own. So this notion of panel supports NONE of your arguments. So again if you have any provision on what SOUL IS THEN YOU CANT SIMPLY argue your headcanon here and say ghost are intangible anywhere. Heck merlin implied that EVEN if ban is immortal physially his soul isn't. That shows the difference between physical body and an astral body. Heck it was completely explained how the environment DESTROYS the physical body of a person but yet DOESNT destroy their souls but rather the souls or purgatory monsters would eat it. It clearly shows the difference between physical body and astral body. In conclusion those monsters CAN touch souls which are intangible.

"A violent expansion of energy outward in a shockwave"... It's the very definition of an explosion.

If it was as you claim, then there would have been nothing to disturb the surface of the cocoon. The very fact that there was an interaction proves otherwise. There's no "blind interpretation", it clearly shows the commandments colliding with the cocoon and causing an explosion, accompany by said sound effect.

Incorrect. Merlin at first thinks it's Merasyclla's doing, but then she corrects herself and says it's the commandment. Merasyclla isn't being pulled anywhere, the commandment broke the tube and she's just there because she was in it too. The commandment is the one doing the moving and flying off.

I've provided proof to back up my claims, whereas you have yet to show any evidence from the manga to support your own. The situation with ban doesn't disprove anything, since no one was claiming that there wasn't a difference. In fact, it's even more proof of my argument, since I brought up how Emotion Meliodas, basically Meliodas' soul, was physically being wounded and threaten with death. You keep trying to claim certain things can touch souls despite them being intangible, without providing the evidence that they are intangible in the first place. This is the entire point, your entire argument has been about something you think is a fact that you haven't actually proven is true. Simply showing a soul being intangable in the series would prove your claim, yet you continue to not do so, while I have provided proof from the manga itself to support my claims.

 

[Arjuna]

@Sky I just had an idea.

You know in Toaru no Majutsu no Index Magic God's can't exist in this world because their very presence would destroy the world.


Looks familiar,indeed because in NNT too DK and SD and anyone with similar Powerlevel can't exist in Britannia.

 

[Sky]

@Sky I just had an idea.

You know in Toaru no Majutsu no Index Magic God's can't exist in this world because their very presence would destroy the world.


Looks familiar,indeed because in NNT too DK and SD and anyone with similar Powerlevel can't exist in Britannia.

Spoiler

Offtopic but, Othinus (as a Majin) is existing in the world. (Including every single GREMLIN member.)
So that isn't exactly true.

 

[Arjuna]

Spoiler

Offtopic but, Othinus (as a Majin) is existing in the world. (Including every single GREMLIN member.)
So that isn't exactly true.

Spoiler

But True Gremlin Members were not able to exist in the world until Aleister forced them to come here and they had to need themselves so they don't destroy the world accidentally while moving their hand or leg.

 

[Rikudou King]

You brought up regeneration as a way to prove that if the demons were in purg they would go under the same effects as Ban. They wouldn't because their resistance isn't the same as ban. The impact from the environment would not be the same. The demons were already at a level, ban was on NO level.
You are still not changing anything bringing up demon regen. Even now.

Did i say they were immune to light? No. I said they have a higher resistance to it. Although it is their weak trait compared to the general demon population it is incredibly higher. Has nothing to do with power? Literally makes no sense. Or u mean to tell me that the DK is gonna get hurt by nerobasta?? No. Ludo was not stronger than the demons, and this is why theres no point debating cause u dont seem to be following whats being SHOWN in the manga but instead what is shallow said. Ludo in margs body could not damage the demons. In the beginning to ludo they said they were warming up, when Cusack went against ludo, he surpassed ludo in margs body in both speed, attack and defense. Numbers don't matter. Proven when the 200k ludo couldn't beat Cusack. But for all we know Ludo in general could be 200k and Merlin can just see it, she wasn't seeing ludo in margs body but ludo as a whole.

Yes it makes perfect sense....she tells us they have no equal outside the DK, then as she always does counters her statment as she has the power to make a weakness...this then added to the reveal that FROM THE START she already inacted what she wanted to do. No. im not arguing that her comment about them have no weakness is seperate, thats was the indication of how great merlin was. She says they have no weakness then creates one. I am arguing with what you were saying. It has nothing to do with demons not having high resistance to elements or will be affected in purg or whatever u think is making sense from what you were (in previous statements) trying to justify with chandler and cusack being affected the same way as ban would. THAT doesnt make sense.
The higher rank demons as in Chandler and Cusack and you are gonna compare them to Zel? Granted Zel is said to be higher rank, but so are the commandments. And you are comparing them to Chandler and Cusack to WHICH Merlin said outside the dk they have no equal. And despite my CLEAR previous mentions specifically about said statement and main focus of the issue which was comparing Chandler and Cusack with Ban. Right...
Zel needs it. If he didn't most of the people in the manga could take him out. Chandler and Cusack don't its outside the DK only not outside Dk and Zel.
Chandler and Cusack are on another level to Zel naturally, Zel has only proved useful to them because of the DKs magic.
Which makes sense because outside the dk chandler and cusack have no weakness!

Point is we will have to agree to strongly disagree, cause nothing of what you have said has changed anything. And it doesn't look like it will.

The adaption to Purgatory, which I used Ban's progress as an example, was the increase effectiveness of their regeneration. I specifically said that since the demons already have a faster regeneration, they would be starting at a higher point to where Ban did to get to that end point

You did, which is why I disagreed. And no, that's not what she said. If she had said that, then I could understand the argument, but what she said was that they are tough and have no weaknesses. And no, it wasn't "affected the same way as Ban", it was simply affected. You were claiming that because they were demons, they would somehow be immune to the effects, which I disagreed with because nothing in the series established that. Zeldoris, by Cusack's own words, is a higher demon like them. And I find it funny you're criticizing Zeldori's durability when neither Cusack nor Chandler showed any greater durability in their base forms, only after they had transformed, which we have yet to see Zeldoris or Meliodas do. Either their durability in their base form counts or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree...

your interpretations are based upon the story or plot at that time

At that time we didn't even know that commandments can be taken out. But with the progression of the story and plot it can be easily interpreted that what kind of opportunist zeldris was. He saw the importance of keeping Estarossa alive at that point so he saved him and when he no longer required him as meliodas gave him a lollipop to attain his goals he left him to destroy himself and die to get the commandments easily.

what kind of brother set his own brother's path towards death? If he really cared about him so much ?

And he did it not only with Estarossa but meliodas also.

He is so hell bent upon satisfying his lust that he indirectly pushed meliodas to become as evil as the demon king and he doesn't even show a slight remorse about it. He doesn't realize that he might get the girl but his brother wouldn't get Elizabeth as she will die and they can never be together in the same world . Also he will kill himself to be with her. So he will basically sacrifice his brother to get some girl back who he knew for what 1% of his time with his brother . What a pathetic creatures. And Have you forgot it was zeldris who reminded Elizabeth of her past live and activated the curse? he was the reason that all this "i am gonna be demon king shit " started and probably started the current holy war.

Then again people cheer for zeldris X gelda. Now tell me what did he do to receive such cheering other than sacrificing comrades and his brothers ? Gelda should leave him if she is revived again and tell him to learn something from his older brother who went against the entire world for his lover or gowther who flunked an entire AA and whole Goddesses clan as a revenge for death of his lover and not just blindly follow daddy's order to beg for his power.

He is even lucky that meliodas didn't punish him for reactivating Elizabeth curse and escanor couldn't finish his attack due to chandler and thats all thx due to plot.

I will never consider zeldris to be best boy or cheer for gelda x zeldris as he doesn't deserve it or her.

We learnt about Cusack's feelings at the same time we learnt about Zeldoris' feeling towards him, so that would be a moot point. How is it Zeldoris' fault that Estarossa disobeyed him? You're talking as if Zeldoris told Estarossa to try and take the commandments, as oppose to literally warning him not to. And what "important" thing was Zeldoris supposedly saving Estarossa for? The one time he was needed something done, he was literally gonna do it himself til Cusack and Chanlder came alone. Again, for you to claim he's an opportunist, you gotta show him being an opportunist.

And what? It was Meliodas' idea to become the Demon King by taking in the commandments. Zeldoris didn't even want him to be the Demon King and literally fought against him because of that. And it was Meliodas who brought up Gelda and offered to help her, to get Zeldoris on his side. How can you blame Zeldoris when he was oppose to Meliodas becoming Demon King in the first place? Any blame on that goes squarely on Meliodas. Why would Zeldoris care about the outcome when Meliodas didn't care about the outcome? And Eli was already beginning to awaken. Not that it matters, since that would still be on Meliodas for sitting around for the past 300 years and not trying to do anything to break the curse, especially when we're told he could have trained to become as strong as the Demon King.

What sacrifice? Meliodas' actions started a massive war with thousands of deaths, and caused Eli to suffered hundreds of lifetimes of death, and instead of trying to solve the problem, he sat around until the last minute. Zeldoris at least thought of other people in his decisions.

 

[mandark]

The adaption to Purgatory, which I used Ban's progress as an example, was the increase effectiveness of their regeneration. I specifically said that since the demons already have a faster regeneration, they would be starting at a higher point to where Ban did to get to that end point

You did, which is why I disagreed. And no, that's not what she said. If she had said that, then I could understand the argument, but what she said was that they are tough and have no weaknesses. And no, it wasn't "affected the same way as Ban", it was simply affected. You were claiming that because they were demons, they would somehow be immune to the effects, which I disagreed with because nothing in the series established that. Zeldoris, by Cusack's own words, is a higher demon like them. And I find it funny you're criticizing Zeldori's durability when neither Cusack nor Chandler showed any greater durability in their base forms, only after they had transformed, which we have yet to see Zeldoris or Meliodas do. Either their durability in their base form counts or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree...

We learnt about Cusack's feelings at the same time we learnt about Zeldoris' feeling towards him, so that would be a moot point. How is it Zeldoris' fault that Estarossa disobeyed him? You're talking as if Zeldoris told Estarossa to try and take the commandments, as oppose to literally warning him not to. And what "important" thing was Zeldoris supposedly saving Estarossa for? The one time he was needed something done, he was literally gonna do it himself til Cusack and Chanlder came alone. Again, for you to claim he's an opportunist, you gotta show him being an opportunist.

And what? It was Meliodas' idea to become the Demon King by taking in the commandments. Zeldoris didn't even want him to be the Demon King and literally fought against him because of that. And it was Meliodas who brought up Gelda and offered to help her, to get Zeldoris on his side. How can you blame Zeldoris when he was oppose to Meliodas becoming Demon King in the first place? Any blame on that goes squarely on Meliodas. Why would Zeldoris care about the outcome when Meliodas didn't care about the outcome? And Eli was already beginning to awaken. Not that it matters, since that would still be on Meliodas for sitting around for the past 300 years and not trying to do anything to break the curse, especially when we're told he could have trained to become as strong as the Demon King.

What sacrifice? Meliodas' actions started a massive war with thousands of deaths, and caused Eli to suffered hundreds of lifetimes of death, and instead of trying to solve the problem, he sat around until the last minute. Zeldoris at least thought of other people in his decisions.

don't want to be rude but you should read my post again after removing the poster of zeldris from your mind. You will get how wrong you are. You are just twisting point to save his ass when everyone knows the truth..

 

[Rikudou King]

don't want to be rude but you should read my post again after removing the poster of zeldris from your mind. You will get how wrong you are. You are just twisting point to save his ass when everyone knows the truth..

You're blaming him not just for things out of his control, but claiming things that never happen! I don't care if you dislike Zeldoris, or think he shouldn't get Gelda (which is why I didn't say anything about that point), but you can't just blame random things on him.

 

[mandark]

You're blaming him not just for things out of his control, but claiming things that never happen! I don't care if you dislike Zeldoris, or think he shouldn't get Gelda (which is why I didn't say anything about that point), but you can't just blame random things on him.

i didn't blame random things on him. All of them were genuine. He was ready to sacrifice everyone when it came to satisfy his lust and it was shown clearly in the manga.

And what kind of lover he is ? If he can't even fight to protect her or stand by her .

And when we have examples of lovers like meliodas , ban, king , gilthunder, Margaret and gowther zeldris doesn't even have chance to stand along the definition of love.

 

[Rikudou King]

i didn't blame random things on him. All of them were genuine. He was ready to sacrifice everyone when it came to satisfy his lust and it was shown clearly in the manga.

And what kind of lover he is ? If he can't even fight to protect her or stand by her .

And when we have examples of lovers like meliodas , ban, king , gilthunder, Margaret and gowther zeldris doesn't even have chance to stand along the definition of love.

You blamed Estarossa trying to steal the commandments on him despite him warning Estarossa NOT to do that, you blamed Meliodas becoming Demon King on him despite him being AGAINST that and Meliodas being the one who came up with the idea, you blame him for Eli awakening even though Eli was already awakening, and you said he did all this for his own selfish goal despite it being Meliodas who offered to save Gelda for him... None of the things you blamed him for was his doing. He didn't push any of them to make the decisions that they made, so how was he "ready to sacrifice" everyone when as far as the series showed, he was biding his time til he became Demon King?

Again, I really don't care about your opinion of his relationship with Gelda. I never made any claims about it either way, or said anything about love. But I do find it hypocritical of you to claim Zeldoris is a bad character because he apparently puts Gelda over everyone else when several of the characters you say are better have done the same.

 

[Eternita]

The adaption to Purgatory, which I used Ban's progress as an example, was the increase effectiveness of their regeneration. I specifically said that since the demons already have a faster regeneration, they would be starting at a higher point to where Ban did to get to that end point

You did, which is why I disagreed. And no, that's not what she said. If she had said that, then I could understand the argument, but what she said was that they are tough and have no weaknesses. And no, it wasn't "affected the same way as Ban", it was simply affected. You were claiming that because they were demons, they would somehow be immune to the effects, which I disagreed with because nothing in the series established that. Zeldoris, by Cusack's own words, is a higher demon like them. And I find it funny you're criticizing Zeldori's durability when neither Cusack nor Chandler showed any greater durability in their base forms, only after they had transformed, which we have yet to see Zeldoris or Meliodas do. Either their durability in their base form counts or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree...

You. never. gave. any. indication. whatsoever that the demons were starting at ANY higher point, dont come up with that out of nowhere. Thanks.

No i didn't and you disagreed because you can't follow the argument. They have high resistance that was the point. You said some ridiculous notion that power didn't matter and i said why it did. All you did was trail off and then tried to figure out what you were saying.
Its is hilarious you think that Chandler and Cusack would go under the same affects as Ban. Like i said you can't see whats in the manga so backtracking isnt getting us anywhere. Nakaba doesn't give us things on a silver plate, if merlin tells us they have high resistance, if we see they have high resistance you came saying they have no resistance. Dont twist it. Did i say Zel wasn't a higher demon? I literally said in the paragraph you have quoted that that granted him and the commandments are high ranking demons. Literally. So why do i need you to say by cusacks own words zel is a higher demon?????? So again, my point that you aren't following the argument and just arguing for what sake? Cause i know i didn't say he was a low one. I know what Zel is, i don't deny what Zel is. I said he wasn't the same as Cusack and Chandler. Which he isn't. I'm glad your laughing cause it's VERY laughable because Zel can only compete because of daddies magic power. In what reality do you think Zel durablilty in his base form is anything? Escanor one finger, down. Ludo one slash, Down. Mael one slash, Down. King would reduce him to nothing, so would Merlin if he didn't have the DKs magic.
Now this is where your regeneration principle applies cause thats where he has it gud.
Base forms? What is their base forms? Because have we seen Mel and Zel go into said form like chand and cusack?? I mean in the desperate situations like the chrono coffin or against his dad... im not seeing Zel do anything like that...so. Or is this just you jumping to conclusions without evidence whatsoever in the manga???
For all we know that was their true form. And don't bring anything about shadows up because we have seen chandler and cusack shadow, so i guess they have another form too.

Anyway great convo, I would appreciate not bringing me into another thread. Either don't reply (which i beg) or just continue it in one place.
I like to keep my receipts in order.

Great disagreeing with you....

 

[Rikudou King]

You. never. gave. any. indication. whatsoever that the demons were starting at ANY higher point, dont come up with that out of nowhere. Thanks.

No i didn't and you disagreed because you can't follow the argument. They have high resistance that was the point. You said some ridiculous notion that power didn't matter and i said why it did. All you did was trail off and then tried to figure out what you were saying.
Its is hilarious you think that Chandler and Cusack would go under the same affects as Ban. Like i said you can't see whats in the manga so backtracking isnt getting us anywhere. Nakaba doesn't give us things on a silver plate, if merlin tells us they have high resistance, if we see they have high resistance you came saying they have no resistance. Dont twist it. Did i say Zel wasn't a higher demon? I literally said in the paragraph you have quoted that that granted him and the commandments are high ranking demons. Literally. So why do i need you to say by cusacks own words zel is a higher demon?????? So again, my point that you aren't following the argument and just arguing for what sake? Cause i know i didn't say he was a low one. I know what Zel is, i don't deny what Zel is. I said he wasn't the same as Cusack and Chandler. Which he isn't. I'm glad your laughing cause it's VERY laughable because Zel can only compete because of daddies magic power. In what reality do you think Zel durablilty in his base form is anything? Escanor one finger, down. Ludo one slash, Down. Mael one slash, Down. King would reduce him to nothing, so would Merlin if he didn't have the DKs magic.
Now this is where your regeneration principle applies cause thats where he has it gud.
Base forms? What is their base forms? Because have we seen Mel and Zel go into said form like chand and cusack?? I mean in the desperate situations like the chrono coffin or against his dad... im not seeing Zel do anything like that...so. Or is this just you jumping to conclusions without evidence whatsoever in the manga???
For all we know that was their true form. And don't bring anything about shadows up because we have seen chandler and cusack shadow, so i guess they have another form too.

Anyway great convo, I would appreciate not bringing me into another thread. Either don't reply (which i beg) or just continue it in one place.
I like to keep my receipts in order.

Great disagreeing with you....

Temperatures are completely different from elements, The point is that he was damaged, they aren't some invulnerable beings.

If she says they have no weakness, then proceeds to go on to create some while targeting what they're least resistant to, that all suggest she was talking about the elements. Where did the series show it? Ban didn't say he those things were not affecting him, he said he had gotten use to them happening. We even saw that he was still being damaged, it was simply that he was regenerating faster then he was being damaged, which is why I brought up the demon's ability to regenerate quickly. As far as it's been shown, the adaption is simply healing fast enough and gaining a tolerance to the pain. I don't disagree the demons would be better off in the beginning, but I see nothing to show they wouldn't be affected.

I have followed the argument fine. You're arguing against a claim I never said. Please go recheck my quotes, I said multiple times that what I was disagreeing with was the idea that they wouldn't be affected. Also, I restate Cusack's comment because he has been the one hyping Zeldoris. Anyway, we've talked about this kind of before, Chandler and Cusack in their base/human/first appearance/whatever you want to call it form weren't shown any more durable then Zeldoris or Meliodas (i.e. the fight with Arthur. It was only after they transformed that they became tougher. And yeah, the shadows imply they have another form. We were shown the shadows before we saw Chandler and Cusack's transformation, so I don't see why it's a leap. As for why he hasn't transformed, I really don't know. Probably the same reason no other demon has use Indura form, or why Merlin didn't finish the two off at the beginning, or why Meliodas has yet to use his OP innate power... plot induced stupidity...

For the record, I brought it here because we're not suppose to keep posting in past chapter threads.

 

[Eternita]

I have followed the argument fine. You're arguing against a claim I never said. Please go recheck my quotes, I said multiple times that what I was disagreeing with was the idea that they wouldn't be affected. Also, I restate Cusack's comment because he has been the one hyping Zeldoris. Anyway, we've talked about this kind of before, Chandler and Cusack in their base/human/first appearance/whatever you want to call it form weren't shown any more durable then Zeldoris or Meliodas (i.e. the fight with Arthur. It was only after they transformed that they became tougher. And yeah, the shadows imply they have another form. We were shown the shadows before we saw Chandler and Cusack's transformation, so I don't see why it's a leap. As for why he hasn't transformed, I really don't know. Probably the same reason no other demon has use Indura form, or why Merlin didn't finish the two off at the beginning, or why Meliodas has yet to use his OP innate power... plot induced stupidity...

For the record, I brought it here because we're not suppose to keep posting in past chapter threads.

I am arguing with what you say in your comments, go recheck your quotes. I said i can understand the mental enviroment but the topic to which u addressed was them with Ban. And the physical environment affect. I don't care about mental that isn't what i was addressing. Its a leap because their shadows looked nothing like transformation. It is a leap because granted i agree their first form is weaker, they are not mel and zel and nothing implies that mel and zel has a transformation like chandler and cusack, and nothing implies that chandler and cusack transformation isn't their true forms and the previous one was a result of recovering their magic power from the seal.
King is now a good example his true form is his full wings teen state, but without magic he reverts back to his small state. Not the best example, but an example that showcases that true forms aren't always first appearance.
I will agree that there is plot induced stupidity, so i wont deny the possibility. Espically with the whole indura fiasco and cusack saying zel will one day surpass him. But until something arises that showcases he will progress in the way of a transformation as of now it is a leap to jump to that conclusion.

For the record, I brought it here because we're not suppose to keep posting in past chapter threads.

Fair.