Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

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kkck

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You're right that I do have bias here on my views about Blackbeard. Personally I think BB is a great villain and foil to Luffy. I may potentially be reading too much into BBs character being a foil to Luffy (or Luffy like characters) but I do think there are some clear signs of what makes BB more "cowardly" than at least Luffy and his ilk.

Not sure you'd agree but here are the examples of things that make BB distinctly more cowardly to me (in comparison to Luffy/Luffy like characters not to OP pirates in general):
  • BB spent decades as a member of the WB pirates despite the entire time knowing he wanted to PK throne for himself. I just can't imagine people like Luffy, Ace, Roger, Shanks etc actively choosing to stay under someone if they were planning to aim for PK themselves. To me this seems like BB strategy assumed he is better off under WB than going it alone which to me is a sign of not believing in oneself enough.
  • BB chose only to go after WB once he was a walking corpse. BB didn't have the balls to challenge/take on WB when he was strong. I just can't imagine Luffy, Ace, etc being happy taking victory under such circumstances. Hell even Kaido who is villainous gets so upset at winning fights unfairly. I haven't seen BB once lament how he ended up taking out WB.
  • BB asked his crew to help finish WB off after BB himself lost in the 1v1 against corpse beard. Other Yonko so far have displayed too much confidence/ego and hated when anyone in their crew interfered in their 1v1 fights. BB so far is the exception.
I won't list them out in detail but on the reverse side of things there are things characters like Luffy & co have done that I can never imagine BB doing e.g. Katakuri stabbing himself to even out the fight, Luffy yelling out his attacks against Fujitora out of respect, etc.
It's pretty clear that BB is some sort of reverse or anti luffy. Even WB with his dying words he made the point that BB lacked what some great pirates before him had. BB specifically was not the man roger was waiting for or something to that effect.

BB's posture appears to have been that without a strong ability he didn't have much of a chance to become PK. And this while he was already pretty powerful. Definitely unlike luffy but it's gotta count for something that once he got his chance at the ability he wanted he pulled out all the stops. Even when it got him on WB's shit list.

BB got to marineford when he could. I don't think it was said he specifically waited until WB was injured or some critical point in the war. It's not like BB was receiving intel updates as far as we know.

It's pretty reasonable to gang up on a yonko. Luffy did it as well. Heck, I can raise you this: Luffy joined in on a plan to poison a yonko. How do you get more cowardly and dishonorable than that? "honorable" luffy is not really the norm. Luffy has his own sense of pride of course but the moments as when luffy played nice with fujitora or his fight with katauri sit wrong because luffy never fights like that, let alone when his crew is at risk. It's massively out of character and only serves to write oda out walls or worst, serve inane plot points. This is a big chunk of the reason I loath everything about the katakuri fight. Luffy could have left katakuri stranded in the mirror world without having to defeat him. Normally this is something luffy would have done with a damn smile on his face and without looking back. But oda needed luffy to breach the inane power scaling he introduced at this point and luffy instinctively had wano spoilers so luffy had to have a manly fight to overcome katakuri while his crew ran for its life from a fully realized yonko crew.
 

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It's pretty reasonable to gang up on a yonko. Luffy did it as well. Heck, I can raise you this: Luffy joined in on a plan to poison a yonko. How do you get more cowardly and dishonorable than that? "honorable" luffy is not really the norm. Luffy has his own sense of pride of course but the moments as when luffy played nice with fujitora or his fight with katauri sit wrong because luffy never fights like that, let alone when his crew is at risk. It's massively out of character and only serves to write oda out walls or worst, serve inane plot points. This is a big chunk of the reason I loath everything about the katakuri fight. Luffy could have left katakuri stranded in the mirror world without having to defeat him. Normally this is something luffy would have done with a damn smile on his face and without looking back. But oda needed luffy to breach the inane power scaling he introduced at this point and luffy instinctively had wano spoilers so luffy had to have a manly fight to overcome katakuri while his crew ran for its life from a fully realized yonko crew.
He knew Fujitora wasn't a threat, his type of observation haki basically lets Luffy give an alignment check. The thing about his fight with Katakuri is that he had already picked a fight with Big Mom, and if he couldn't even beat Katakuri he had no business claiming he was going to be Pirate King anymore. Running from an Emperor to fight another day is one thing, but running from a Commander was not an option at this point in the story. That fight was more about Luffy proving to himself that he had what it takes. It's not inane just because you don't like it.
 

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Kaku has awakening? LMAO. Now everybody from this point on will have awakening.
Disappointing that Kaku and Lucci have awakenings but nobody from the Beasts Pirates had confirmed awakenings. Shame.
Was expecting Zolo to quickly dispatch Kaku but it seems either Kaku is YC3 to YC2 level, shit maybe even YC1 with his awakening.
 

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Kaku has awakening? LMAO. Now everybody from this point on will have awakening.
Disappointing that Kaku and Lucci have awakenings but nobody from the Beasts Pirates had confirmed awakenings. Shame.
Was expecting Zolo to quickly dispatch Kaku but it seems either Kaku is YC3 to YC2 level, shit maybe even YC1 with his awakening.

I've said this before.
I bet that CP0/WG has a way to awaken Zoan users. That's how we got to see 5 random clowns in ID being awakened zoans too.

Regarding Lucci/Kaku, this is what I think:
Lucci: YC1-2 level
Kaku: YC2-3 level
 

kkck

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He knew Fujitora wasn't a threat, his type of observation haki basically lets Luffy give an alignment check. The thing about his fight with Katakuri is that he had already picked a fight with Big Mom, and if he couldn't even beat Katakuri he had no business claiming he was going to be Pirate King anymore. Running from an Emperor to fight another day is one thing, but running from a Commander was not an option at this point in the story. That fight was more about Luffy proving to himself that he had what it takes. It's not inane just because you don't like it.
The only scenario that works is that luffy straight up knew he'd get a pass from fujitora. It's one thing for luffy to know whether someone is good or bad, it's another to know whether that person will do his job. It's not even a good vs evil thing.

Why couldn't luffy retreat from a fight with katakuri? So what if luffy ran away from a commander? That's not a thing, there was no specific stake associated with luffy at that point having to defeat katakuri. Luffy had every option to simply leave katakuri stranded and opted not to.
 

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I dont think Oda planned the DF Awakening, accurately. He introduced it waaayy to early in the series and didnt bring it up again for another 200 chapters. Someone mentioned that Enel's final form was a possible awakening due to the transformation and having that swirly cloud around him. I dont think he was awakened but hey who knows nowadays.
 

kkck

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I dont think Oda planned the DF Awakening, accurately. He introduced it waaayy to early in the series and didnt bring it up again for another 200 chapters. Someone mentioned that Enel's final form was a possible awakening due to the transformation and having that swirly cloud around him. I dont think he was awakened but hey who knows nowadays.
It's a pretty hard sell to me that oda didn't figure out awakenings quite early on. However lackluster luffy's awakening was there hasn't been an inconsistent portrayal of them yet. For the most part we just need to see a few more. As for the cloud thing... So far it appears those are characteristic of zoan who manage to overcome their animal part and retain their personalities. Paramecia awakenings do not evidence the cloud thing yet. It's true we haven't seen logia awakenings but it's not that big a stretch that katakuri is potentially a reference of what that looks like.
 

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I've said this before.
I bet that CP0/WG has a way to awaken Zoan users. That's how we got to see 5 random clowns in ID being awakened zoans too.

Regarding Lucci/Kaku, this is what I think:
Lucci: YC1-2 level
Kaku: YC2-3 level
This is a solid rating. People jumped the gun with Lucci after the first clash with Luffy. Oda wanted to remake that panel as Lucci got low-diffed right after.
 

Fox666

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I've said this before.
I bet that CP0/WG has a way to awaken Zoan users. That's how we got to see 5 random clowns in ID being awakened zoans too.
It seems awakening is not necessarily something that only the strongest can achieve

Oda has always done that, right?

Everyone on Skypeia could use Observation Haki, the Boa sisters could use Armament Haki "emission", etc
 

kkck

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Zoan fruits have been affected by chemicals before. chopper does it via rumble balls, black maria used something to alter her hybrid form. It's not that insane to think some drug can be used to forcefully awaken a zoan user, at even greater peril than usual.
 

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This is a solid rating. People jumped the gun with Lucci after the first clash with Luffy. Oda wanted to remake that panel as Lucci got low-diffed right after.
People are really misreading that clash. Lucci was losing terribly in the fight proper, but once Luffy ran off it became clear that Luffy's awakening is taxing as hell and he's wildly inexperienced with it, while Lucci was right-as-rain afterward. It was a pretty stark contrast, Lucci's no greenhorn with his awakening, unlike Luffy. Also it seems pretty clear that Lucci's personality is completely in-line with his zoan, while Luffy still acts like a teenager's first time getting high and it's making him act recklessly still.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I dont think Oda planned the DF Awakening, accurately. He introduced it waaayy to early in the series and didnt bring it up again for another 200 chapters. Someone mentioned that Enel's final form was a possible awakening due to the transformation and having that swirly cloud around him. I dont think he was awakened but hey who knows nowadays.
I wish he'd have made Crocodile know *something* was up with the Jailors having bizarre transformations, but not state authoritatively they were defintely for sure awakened. Something like "Hold on, are those guys *awakened*?! This is bad, we should avoid them". Then we wouldn't have had years and years of confusion about what definitely is or isn't awakening based on Croc sounding that sure of himself.
 

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People are really misreading that clash. Lucci was losing terribly in the fight proper, but once Luffy ran off it became clear that Luffy's awakening is taxing as hell and he's wildly inexperienced with it, while Lucci was right-as-rain afterward. It was a pretty stark contrast, Lucci's no greenhorn with his awakening, unlike Luffy. Also it seems pretty clear that Lucci's personality is completely in-line with his zoan, while Luffy still acts like a teenager's first time getting high and it's making him act recklessly still.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



I wish he'd have made Crocodile know *something* was up with the Jailors having bizarre transformations, but not state authoritatively they were defintely for sure awakened. Something like "Hold on, are those guys *awakened*?! This is bad, we should avoid them". Then we wouldn't have had years and years of confusion about what definitely is or isn't awakening based on Croc sounding that sure of himself.
What? Luffy is only taxed like that when he grows big and when he is "taxed" he is only old for like 37 seconds. If he fought without growing big he could last in G5 as long as needed. As seen with the Kaido fight, there was no time limit. He old got old when he grew giant that time as well

It was a low diff. Luffy was just playing around
 

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Do people think the Seraphim's strength is relatively even e.g. S-Hawk is about the same as S-Shark or that they are relative to each other like the originals e.g. Mihawk >> Jinbei?

I'm hoping that its the latter. That would mean we may be sleeping on S-Hawk a bit and he may turn out being YC1+ on his own. In my mind I think the Seraphim are something like 70% (just making up the exact number) of the strength of original. Considering that Mihawk stands out compared to the rest of the OG Warlords as being the only Yonko level fighter, his Seraphim may be by far the strongest.
 

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It seems awakening is not necessarily something that only the strongest can achieve

Oda has always done that, right?

Everyone on Skypeia could use Observation Haki, the Boa sisters could use Armament Haki "emission", etc

Yeah, but Kaku awakening in just 2 years after getting his DF?

Kaido mentioned that for DF to awaken, you must have extreme mastery of your DF and have your mind/body synchronized..........something along those lines.
Things don't add up here.

But maybe it's usual Oda stuff lol.

This is a solid rating. People jumped the gun with Lucci after the first clash with Luffy. Oda wanted to remake that panel as Lucci got low-diffed right after.
I thought he was gonna be YC1+

But after Luffy knocked him down without even using advanced haki, it became clear that Lucci isn't that level.

Do people think the Seraphim's strength is relatively even e.g. S-Hawk is about the same as S-Shark or that they are relative to each other like the originals e.g. Mihawk >> Jinbei?

I'm hoping that its the latter. That would mean we may be sleeping on S-Hawk a bit and he may turn out being YC1+ on his own. In my mind I think the Seraphim are something like 70% (just making up the exact number) of the strength of original. Considering that Mihawk stands out compared to the rest of the OG Warlords as being the only Yonko level fighter, his Seraphim may be by far the strongest.
Gap should be closer than the originals IMO.

What makes Mihawk so strong is his haki. Haki isn't something that can be cloned, it comes from will/soul.
But I do think that they inherit the base physical stats from each Shichibukai.

IMO, Seraphim have:
- base physical stats from Shichibukai, including combat skill/style.
- lunarian durability (though it's implied that it is not comparable to King's because they are young)
- whatever DF they are equipped with through "green blood"

Serpahim Mihawk is clearly being portrayed as the strongest. You know someone is built different from the rest when you see what S-Hawk did to Amazon Lily and Blackbeard.
Take Mihawk's haki away and he's still some commander level with just pure stats (his casual flying slash sliced up an island sized tsunami). This skill and brute strength is inherited by S-Hawk too, proven as he cut an island sized mountain in half casually.


But........like I said, I don't think the gap between each Seraphim are as big as the between the originals. OG Mihawk would probably low diff the 2nd strongest Shichibukai.
While I think it's gonna be high diff when it comes to Seraphim. Seraphim lacking in haki (until proven otherwise) + having luanrian defence should even out the powerlevels.


Rough guesses:
S-Hawk : YC1 - YC1+
S-Bear/S-Snake : YC1-2
S-Shark - YC2
 

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Yeah, but Kaku awakening in just 2 years after getting his DF?

Kaido mentioned that for DF to awaken, you must have extreme mastery of your DF and have your mind/body synchronized..........something along those lines.
Things don't add up here.

But maybe it's usual Oda stuff lol.
It's just powercreep

In the next arc, everyone and their dogs will have ACoC and awakening
 

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It's just powercreep

In the next arc, everyone and their dogs will have ACoC and awakening
Ehh, powercreep is almost at it's end.

Peak was Roger/prime-WB, who are probably just a bit stronger than Kaido. I would expect Luffy/BB to grow to slightly above that level.
Kaido was the strongest character post TS. Yonko and admirals are at/near pinnacle.

We may see awakening more often, but advanced conqueror's will still remain rare. It is the power that defined the OG Yonkos.
Apart from confirmed users, only the following are legit candidates left IMO:
- Garp
- Mihawk
- Akainu
- Ben Beckman
- Imu
- Gorosei


Powercreep doesn't explain how characters who are far less experienced can have awakenings. Don't tell me Kaku got more mastery of his DF in 2 years, than Kaido in like ~40 years.

But....maybe you're right and there will be nothing more to it other than Oda being Loda lmao
 

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Do people think the Seraphim's strength is relatively even e.g. S-Hawk is about the same as S-Shark or that they are relative to each other like the originals e.g. Mihawk >> Jinbei?

I'm hoping that its the latter. That would mean we may be sleeping on S-Hawk a bit and he may turn out being YC1+ on his own. In my mind I think the Seraphim are something like 70% (just making up the exact number) of the strength of original. Considering that Mihawk stands out compared to the rest of the OG Warlords as being the only Yonko level fighter, his Seraphim may be by far the strongest.
Hard to say. I think a big factor here is that even though they are clones they are also enhanced by a number of shenanigans. The most obvious being their lunarian physiology. By all appearances the seraphin have remained in defense mode so far. In the case of s-hawk the green blood is also visible meaning he has a devil fruit ability we have not seen yet. If vegapunk could create clones with shichibukai lineage factors and also add extras like lunarian then there is no telling what else they have going for them. We know vegapunk also had access to whatever is special about kuma so it wouldn't be strange if this was added to the other seraphines. Or that whatever it is makes mihawk special was added to the others, assuming something about him is inherently special to begin with. S-snake has weird eyes, I doubt that's just decoration. I wouldn't be surprised if all seraphines have fishman physiology as well, assuming the green blood does not take away their ability to swim. As seen with jinbe it does appear like vegapunk aimed to complement their skillsets. I am quite curious regarding what ability s hawk was given though. Can't really think of anything that would specially benefit a swordsman. Daz bones' fruit seems like the most likely candidate that the world government could have had access to.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

It's just powercreep

In the next arc, everyone and their dogs will have ACoC and awakening
Welp, anyone who is supposed to pose a threat to luffy will likely have it. We are heading towards a big conflict that will involve all of the world's superpowers. Shanks and mihawk are obvious candidates for this. Sengoku and akainu as well. Kizaru is the most senior admiral and by all appearances comparable to akainu at least in part 1.
 

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What? Luffy is only taxed like that when he grows big and when he is "taxed" he is only old for like 37 seconds. If he fought without growing big he could last in G5 as long as needed. As seen with the Kaido fight, there was no time limit. He old got old when he grew giant that time as well

It was a low diff. Luffy was just playing around
He didn't grow big against Lucci. As soon as Luffy disengaged his awakening, he was uselessly old. Or do you really think the Hungry-Hungry Hippos gag technique was the reason Luffy went old-man?

Where are you getting 37 seconds from. Wut.

In the Kaidou fight, he depleted in the middle of a life-and-death match and had to restart his heart, which he could only do because- and I'm assuming here- Kaidou let him. Something Lucci definitely wouldn't do. Just like Kaidou purposefully took Vajrang Gun head on.

Luffy outclasses Lucci and wrecked his shit, but my point is that Luffy is incredibly green with his awakening and suffering side-effects DURING AND AFTER that Lucci does not. Luffy has a ways to go.
 
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