Character Question regarding Sanada...

mazakianzu

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Sorta a random, maybe outdated question haha, but I've just been googling a lot and not finding the answer so thought I'd try here. Also, possible spoilers for people who didn't read original series so look away!!









It seems that the general consensus for why Sanada didn't use Muga no Kyouchi until nearly the end of the match with Ryoma (original series, Kantou tournament) was because he didnt like it; something along the lines of he didn't like imitating weaker players. Where was this actually stated? I didn't read it anywhere in the manga (unless I missed something). Perhaps one of the fanbooks/guides?
 
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Kaoz

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Since apparently nobody else knows either, I believe there is no official statement to support that, or at least I couldn't find anything in the PPs and I don't remember reading it in any databook.

It's just a theory as far as I know.
 

Ninomiya

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Since apparently nobody else knows either, I believe there is no official statement to support that, or at least I couldn't find anything in the PPs and I don't remember reading it in any databook.

It's just a theory as far as I know.
Actually, I have a feeling he does say it... I just don't remember where.
I'll look into this.
 

TheShiraishi

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Perhaps one of those pages at the end of the chapter when Konomi draws a little pun or holds a mini Q and A with a reader's question and then the characters answer it.
 

Kaoz

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Perhaps one of those pages at the end of the chapter when Konomi draws a little pun or holds a mini Q and A with a reader's question and then the characters answer it.
Actually that's corret, last page of Ch 235.
 

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It seems that the general consensus for why Sanada didn't use Muga no Kyouchi until nearly the end of the match with Ryoma (original series, Kantou tournament) was because he didnt like it; something along the lines of he didn't like imitating weaker players. Where was this actually stated? I didn't read it anywhere in the manga (unless I missed something). Perhaps one of the fanbooks/guides?
That seems like a bogus interpretation, because Sanada didn't even imitate anybody when he used Muga. I think to get a good theory going, you need to understand the character himself. Sanada is extremely confident, though his match with Echizen is unlike any match he has ever played. With everybody else, Sanada has either seen someone as not even worth noting (Ibu/Kamio), respected someone as his equal (Tezuka, Renji, Atobe), or honored someone as his superior (Yukumura). However when it came to Echizen's match, Ryoma was the only person that made Sanada see someone as a brat that needed a lesson. You'll notice that practically everything Sanada does in the match with Echizen has never been repeated (in terms of his personality, use of muga, and play-style).

Sanada wanted to teach Echizen a lesson, so he wasn't trying to win. Sanada started to dominate Ryoma by using one technique at a time. When Echizen was thwarting his plan by overcoming these techniques to the point of even using muga, Sanada had to one-up him again by returning the favor. It really had nothing to do with tennis. It was a battle of authority. Echizen overstepped his boundaries by challenging the one on the throne, and Sanada had to put him in his place. It wasn't until he saw Echizen take the chance of hitting a 1/100 chance Cool Drive that Sanada finally gave Echizen his respect, and ultimately handed over his authority as champion. This was the most pivotal moment in the entire series (from a literary point of view) for that reason.

That is why I think Sanada's use of muga was simply a means to one-up Echizen directly, in a once-in-a-lifetime battle of authority. This is why it has never been done since. I hope my interpretation helps. Sanada has been my favorite character since he was first shown, so I should know a thing or two about him.
 

Hardy

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Perhaps one of those pages at the end of the chapter when Konomi draws a little pun or holds a mini Q and A with a reader's question and then the characters answer it.
You are a beast at this searching topics...
 

Phantron

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I recall Sanada saying 'why would I want to imitiate inferior techniques' during one of the side Q&A session. Since his moves already counter pretty much every move out there at that point in POT, there's really no point for him to copy anyone else's moves. Also, at that point Ryoma has seen Fu and Ka, which counters the vast majority of normal special moves. Zan seems to be just another name for 'extended rally' which seems to be what's happening anyway. Rin counters Tezuka Phantom (and zone by extension) and Data Tennis type moves since it was used against Yanagi, but none of his moves seems to require a special counter so I assume the reason it's used is to deal with Data Tennis type attacks. Muga hasn't been shown to be able to replicate Data Tennis and that sort of make sense (you can't just reflexively know there's a 95% chance the ball will bounce one way or another) and of course Tezuka Phantom doesn't even exist at this point so in the pool of special moves there's nothing that can't be countered by Fu and Ka, which Ryoma knows at that point Sanada could have used.

Of course that means he used Muga just to glow in a different color and wasted energy for no reason but it's not like people have logical motivations to play tennis in POT. In fact it's pretty strange that Yukimura and Sanada mastered Muga because there really isn't a point for them to ever copy anyone else's moves. The only move they'd have a reason to copy would be World of Ice (except I don't think you can copy eye powers) or Tezuka Phantom (which would trash your shoulder) so it's literally useless for them to have that ability.
 

Kaoz

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Sanada stated that he tried to replicate Tezuka Zone with it but failed. There's your motivation.

That aside, in the match between Echizen and Kirihara, it's also implied that the user's power and speed increases in Muga, so even if you don't copy anything with it, it can still be used for that.
 

Phantron

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Sanada stated that he tried to replicate Tezuka Zone with it but failed. There's your motivation.

That aside, in the match between Echizen and Kirihara, it's also implied that the user's power and speed increases in Muga, so even if you don't copy anything with it, it can still be used for that.
Tezuka Zone would actually be a good move to use since it presumably requires Rin to counter which Ryoma hasn't seen, but problem is we know Tezuka Zone can't be copied with Muga so there's no reason to use Muga during this particular instance. Zan seems to counter a particular style (extended rally) and Sanada cannot use moves that require Rin to counter. Everything else is counterable by Ka or Fu by process of elimination, since Furinkazan is said to counter everything at that point in POT.

Given how Muga is pretty much used exclusively for copying moves, I think we can assume the increase in stat is not the primary motivation for using it in light of its alleged cost. Of course, I'm sure Sanada is more than capable of keeping up Muga the entire match since he has the highest endurance out of all POT characters (he outlasted Atobe). Of course the whole Sanada versus Ryoma is kind of uncharacteristic for him to begin with. If Sanada is really the guy who has to win at all costs then he should use Muga as soon as he starts losing control of the match, as opposed to using it when Ryoma has a match point.
 

Kaoz

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Tezuka Zone would actually be a good move to use since it presumably requires Rin to counter which Ryoma hasn't seen, but problem is we know Tezuka Zone can't be copied with Muga so there's no reason to use Muga during this particular instance.
You said that Sanada and Yukimura had no reason to master Muga, which according to what Sanada said is false. He wouldn't know Muga couldn't copy Zone beforehand either since chances are nobody tried before him/them.

Given how Muga is pretty much used exclusively for copying moves, I think we can assume the increase in stat is not the primary motivation for using it in light of its alleged cost.
It isn't, but it's still there. And when you need a small boost (although it could be argued as a rather major boost for that point in the series) at some point, why not?
 

Phantron

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You said that Sanada and Yukimura had no reason to master Muga, which according to what Sanada said is false. He wouldn't know Muga couldn't copy Zone beforehand either since chances are nobody tried before him/them.



It isn't, but it's still there. And when you need a small boost (although it could be argued as a rather major boost for that point in the series) at some point, why not?
Outside of the one particular instance mentioned here, neither Yukimura nor Sanada has ever been shown to use Muga again. Yukimura even says using Muga is just a waste of energy in his game against Ryoma. Kirihara initially learned Muga but also never used it again, and we know the big 3 wanted him to learn Devil Form instead, so 2 out of the 3 guys who totally mastered Muga must have decided Devil Form (which isn't really even that strong, as Kirihara can't beat Yanagi while using it) was a more useful move to learn than Muga. If you assume Yanagi is almost certainly the weakest out of the big 3, this means a move they consider better than Muga was still nowhere near enough to beat either Sanada or Yukimura.

The real problem with Muga is that World of Ice did not exist until Muga ceases to be anything special. Yukimura and Sanada are all around players who are more than capable of countering every move head on, so Tezuka Zone wouldn't really do anything useful for them. It's pretty clear that in POT (not NPOT) you need Tezuka Zone to defeat World of Ice if you're actually playing tennis so had World of Ice exist since the beginning, that'd be the proper motivation to master Muga in hoping that you can one day replicate Tezuka Zone because you need it to deal with World of Ice. But of course, World of Ice didn't exist until quite late in the story and without World of Ice, there really isn't any motivation for either Sanada or Yukimura to want to learn an 'inferior move'. Remember, originally in the match against Rikkaidai it was said imagine the Rikkaidai team as if they have 7 Tezukas. Tezuka's power level seem to be retconned to Sanada tier as POT progresses, but at the time Sanada used Muga, Tezuka was definitely lower tier than Sanada so there's no reason to copy a lower tier move.

---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------

After thinking about some more I think the problem is that as crazy as Yukimura and Sanada's moves are, the 3 doors are even crazier and there doesn't really seem to be a logical way to explain why 2 guys with presumably the highest overall stats in POT would ever lose a game while having hack-like moves. In fact both of them almost sounds jealous when they talk about how the first 2 doors are useless. Why work so hard to invent a move to counter the first 2 doors if you can learn it yourself? They're supposed to be the two of the three guys that understand it better than anyone else, and apparently neither has ever opened a door.

Honestly it'd make more sense if it's said somewhere that descendents of Sanada Yukimura are not allowed to open the 3 doors because Ieyasu Tokugawa used the three doors to conquer all of Japan and framed the Sanada family, or something. It literally makes no sense why someone with a title like 'Son of God' can't even open a single door.
 

Kaoz

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Stuff about Akaya and DM is irrelevant from what I can tell, so I'll leave that as it is.

The real problem with Muga is that World of Ice did not exist until Muga ceases to be anything special.
Except that Echizen needed it for Kirihara, Sanada and Kintarou.

without World of Ice, there really isn't any motivation for either Sanada or Yukimura to want to learn an 'inferior move'.
Where are you getting from that TZone is inferior? It's the only move in the entire series that was commented on as surpassing the MS level. Furthermore, if Sanada doesn't copy inferior moves, but does try to copy Zone, this implies that Zone is at least equal if not superior to the options he had for the same situations.

Tezuka's power level seem to be retconned to Sanada tier as POT progresses
Tezuka's injury seems like a pretty good explanation to me as to why he'd be weaker in Kanto but equal to Sanada during the Nationals.

but at the time Sanada used Muga, Tezuka was definitely lower tier than Sanada so there's no reason to copy a lower tier move.
Just because A is weaker than B doesn't mean all of A's techniques are weaker than B's.

Why work so hard to invent a move to counter the first 2 doors if you can learn it yourself? They're supposed to be the two of the three guys that understand it better than anyone else, and apparently neither has ever opened a door.
That's said exactly nowhere. The only one we know of who has actually researched Muga is Chitose. There seem various requirements to open the doors, why is it so unbelievable that Yukimura and Sanada don't fulfill all of them?

Given what Yukimura says after Echizen achieves Hyakuren, I doubt he/they would even want it, since guess what, he doesn't have a Zone like Tezuka does. Saiki seems to require a great understanding of how to read a match which they don't necessarily have. Rikkai's entire philosophy goes against what's needed for TnK.
 

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Where are you getting from that TZone is inferior? It's the only move in the entire series that was commented on as surpassing the MS level.
I've started to read the manga, and almost half of the moves everyone does are said to be over the Ms level (Twist serve, dunk smash, Higuma Otoshi is a "godly move", etc...)

I agree with you tough, but that sentence seemed wrong to me.
 

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As for as duplicating moves with Muga, I'm sure Yukimura and Sanada must have just tried duplicating any move they've seen. After all they've seen far more than anyone not in their school by definition (they're two time champs) so why wouldn't they just try everything they see in case there's a useful move? But they clearly turned Kirihara away from the Muga path, which implies they must know this path doesn't lead to anywhere useful and in terms of experience they're obviously the most qualified to say that copying people's moves doesn't get you anything really useful. I mean sure Sanada and Yukimura aren't the main characters so maybe Sanada and Yukimura uses Muga everywhere else we don't see them but there's just no reason to believe this is true especially given Yukimura pretty much thinks of Muga as a useless move.

Ryoma has pretty much nothing in common with second door but he can open it. If you talk about experience, both Yukimura and Sanada has far more of it than anyone else, again by the virtue of being on the champion team. If you talk about heritage, especially samurai heritage, Sanada obviously knows how to use a sword and Fu is a variant of Battou, and then there's the not-so-subtle fact that Sanada Yukimura is one of the greatest samurai ever. The third door cannot be opened by normal means but it didn't take anything super special to open the first two doors and Sanada and Yukimura are obviously really special to begin with. I mean Nioh can flat out clone the first two doors but he can't clone the Zeroth Serve in the match against Fuji, so in terms of difficulty it's harder to clone the Zeroth Serve than both of the first two doors!

Tezuka Zone isn't really a good move relative to the people we're talking about because it's said many times Tezuka Zone hurts your elbow in a serious way. While Tezuka Phantom exceeds what the human body can tolerate, don't forget Tezuka Zone is pretty much at the limit of what the human body can tolerate, so it's not something you want to do just for the sake of doing it.

Yet Tezuka, Yukimura, and Sanada are all guys who can return virtually any move in a 'normal' form, so to speak. Outside of Rai, I do not see any of those 3 characters encounter a move they cannot return normally. For a point of reference, Nioh while cloning Tezuka can return Fuji's 5th counter by hitting it back normally. At least within the same age group, almost any fancy technique is just a normal rally to those 3 guys, so why would any of them want to use a move that hurts yourself considerably to return a shot? Especially for Tezuka, who has a history of injury problems? Tezuka Zone is a move that'd be good for a power type character, like any of the Hado ballers. It's not a useful move for someone who can already return just about any special technique normally. In fact it seems like World of Ice was invented to justify why someone who can return just about any special technique normally would ever care about Tezuka Zone.
 

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I've started to read the manga, and almost half of the moves everyone does are said to be over the Ms level (Twist serve, dunk smash, Higuma Otoshi is a "godly move", etc...)

I agree with you tough, but that sentence seemed wrong to me.
It's true. The amount of times we've heard ''How can a Middle Schooler do that!!??''. Too many times lol.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

Outside of Rai, I do not see any of those 3 characters encounter a move they cannot return normally.
Sanada and Yuki could return Rai though?
 

Phantron

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It's true. The amount of times we've heard ''How can a Middle Schooler do that!!??''. Too many times lol.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------


Sanada and Yuki could return Rai though?
Yeah but the original question is why would you need Tezuka Zone for those two. Well Yuki can keep up with Rai's speed as we can see from NPOT, and TZone won't help with the fact that he lacks the physical strength to return Rai anyway.

Sanada presumably can return his own Rai and Rai seems just as good as returning any shot compared to TZone with the sole exception of the World of Ice line, but since World of Ice didn't exist at this particular point we're talking about, from Sanada's point of view, his Rai is every bit as good as Tezuka Zone when it comes to returning a shot.
 

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Yeah but the original question is why would you need Tezuka Zone for those two. Well Yuki can keep up with Rai's speed as we can see from NPOT, and TZone won't help with the fact that he lacks the physical strength to return Rai anyway.

Sanada presumably can return his own Rai and Rai seems just as good as returning any shot compared to TZone with the sole exception of the World of Ice line, but since World of Ice didn't exist at this particular point we're talking about, from Sanada's point of view, his Rai is every bit as good as Tezuka Zone when it comes to returning a shot.
Actually we don't know when Sanada and Yuki saw Tezuka Zone. and we don't know when Rai was made.
So we can't really judge well.
 

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Phantron said:
They're supposed to be the two of the three guys that understand it better than anyone else, and apparently neither has ever opened a door.
Explain Black Aura then.

Phantron said:
Well Yuki can keep up with Rai's speed as we can see from NPOT, and TZone won't help with the fact that he lacks the physical strength to return Rai anyway.
Strength has nothing to do with returning Rai. Which is why that big moron Sasabe from the first chapters got a hole in his racquet, despite being physically strong. You can have the power of Oni and still not return Rai. Yukimura shows us that extremely high technique is the only way to return it.
 
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