Discussion Ranking the Irregulars

Kenneth Latorre

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Well i was talking about a hypothetical fight. If Enryu can kill off Admin i dont think Zahard poses much threat to Enryu. We have seen physcal strength can pose edge but if you have a complete mastery of shinsoo you can do wonders. Nothing beats Shinso mastery of Enryu.
His shinso mastery is so good it was pretty much contradictory to what was previously believed. Hence why his power was described as heretical in comparison to a guardian.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

My personal opinion is that the final boss of the story is gonna be the guardian in the 135 floor.
thus bam will have to reach an existence similar to Enryu.
 

zoradante1

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Context! If we go by data eduan and data zahard we saw that data eduan was able to trade blows with zahard... Which is absurd. The khun have A LOT going for them... The arie excel because of their swordsmanship, the ha because of their tough bodies combined with their particularly powerful reinforcement. Eduan has his spear bearing, multiple characteristic elements (at least ice and electricity), and particularly tough bodies. Eduan's children of course can inherit whichever amount of these.

Ran of course has shown the most physical endurance out of any known regular khun and excels at lightning. To the point where he can use mascheny style techniques.

Kisea is another khun that seemingly excels at physical combat (though as a regular we don't know if the real one has developed more stuff).

Aguero is by all appearances behind in terms of physical capacity but he still objectively very strong in this regard by regular standards. It is also worth noting that aguero's physical strength is probably beneath his potential given how much he has usually avoided combat during his climb. His reinforcement should have improved dramatically since he acquired his shinsoo attributes as well since getting those allows you easier control of shinsoo.
the reason why eduan is able go trade blows with zahard is because of his lightning shinsu which makes him super fast as well as super strong. Zahard might have stronger body but eduan has lightning shinsu which enchances his physical abilities to a whole level.
 

kkck

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the reason why eduan is able go trade blows with zahard is because of his lightning shinsu which makes him super fast as well as super strong. Zahard might have stronger body but eduan has lightning shinsu which enchances his physical abilities to a whole level.
But... did eduan use internal quality control at that time? Was zahard using it for that matter? Or can he use it? I am not sure the series is clear on those specific bits at that fight. My impression at the time was that neither was using internal quality control.
 

lazybum

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^ In the same chapter, Zahard says that a Zahard princess's body is "tens of thousand" tougher than ordinary people. Not sure of he's exaggerating here or it's an accurate description.
 

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^ In the same chapter, Zahard says that a Zahard princess's body is "tens of thousand" tougher than ordinary people. Not sure of he's exaggerating here or it's an accurate description.
probably not an exaggeration. The comparison has been made rather consistently through the series. Though there is some wiggle room in what you'd consider to be a normal person...
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This was never said.

Zahard Princesses are incomparably more durable than Ha Family members, but it wasn't said that Zahard himself was more resilient than Yurin.

Zahard Princesses just acquire a power from Zahard that DDs don't necessarily inherit from their parents.



Zahard did:




Eduan interestingly did not.


Eduan not using IQSC is based on Eduan's IQSC manifesting with the same visual effects as Maschenny's Redan.

Redan Maschenny:


Eduan using IQSC against Adult Zahard:
Welp, at least we didn't see eduan use it. Not sure if zahard was still using it after he beat the crap out of bam on that first encounter. The whole thing is very murky at best. The series has not explained IQSC sufficiently.
 

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Not sure if zahard was still using it after he beat the crap out of bam on that first encounter.
No he didn't use it to beat the crap out of Baam. He used it after beating the crap out of Baam. Immediately after using it, he tried to wipe out all of Baam's friends, but Eduan intervened. So he was definitely using it when he fought Eduan.
 

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But... did eduan use internal quality control at that time? Was zahard using it for that matter? Or can he use it? I am not sure the series is clear on those specific bits at that fight. My impression at the time was that neither was using internal quality control.
Yes they used external shinsu quality control however eduan's shinsu control looked like between internal and external shinsu quality considering he was always emitting sparks. Plus it's quite likely that khun eduan has strongest body after ha yurin among 10 fh,which made him able to trade blows with data z.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This was never said.

Zahard Princesses are incomparably more durable than Ha Family members, but it wasn't said that Zahard himself was more resilient than Yurin.

Zahard Princesses just acquire a power from Zahard that DDs don't necessarily inherit from their parents.



Zahard did:




Eduan interestingly did not.


Eduan not using IQSC is based on Eduan's IQSC manifesting with the same visual effects as Maschenny's Redan.

Redan Maschenny:


Eduan using IQSC against Adult Zahard:
it's quite likely that zahard was physically more stronger than ha yurin himself considering we didn't see zahard's field which he is at best,Ha yurin is able to use shinsu enchanment best while zahard having strongest body among 13 gw makes sense to me. Agreed with zahard princess taking power from z while other 10 family members are taking from their parent's DNA. Getting zahard's blood makes zahard princess has bodies far durable than average rankers as such zahard's field at the very least should be physical durability if not physical abilities.
 

Cinera

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Yes they used external shinsu quality control however eduan's shinsu control looked like between internal and external shinsu quality considering he was always emitting sparks.
So is Maschenny, see e.g.:


It's just their shinsu quality.


Lol, I don't think this Kind of Manwah works like that.
And yet, SIU has written what he wrote.
 

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In terms of pure physical ability Zahard is without a doubt at the top among all his companions but it doesn't mean that the others can't deal with it in their own ways. Their descendants have strong bodies for a reason.

Zahard's physical abilities are definitely above Yurin's. But she might be better at Shinsoo Reinforcement, she was the first one to discover it IIRC.
 

zoradante1

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So is Maschenny, see e.g.:


It's just their shinsu quality.



And yet, SIU has written what he wrote.
maschenny and khun eduan is different case,maschenny was only emitting sparks when fighting while khun eduan always emitted sparks.
 

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maschenny and khun eduan is different case,maschenny was only emitting sparks when fighting while khun eduan always emitted sparks.
Emitting sparks like that is just their shinsu quality. It shows the shinsu coursing through them.

When Maschenny became excited to confront Zahard she began emitting a lot of sparks. She wasn't even using any attack then.

It's similar for Eduan, the more excited he gets, the more lightning courses through him.


In terms of pure physical ability Zahard is without a doubt at the top among all his companions but it doesn't mean that the others can't deal with it in their own ways. Their descendants have strong bodies for a reason.

Zahard's physical abilities are definitely above Yurin's. But she might be better at Shinsoo Reinforcement, she was the first one to discover it IIRC.
But this was not shown in Data Zahard vs Eduan.

Eduan without using Internal Quality Shinsu Control kept up with a Zahard that was using Shinwonryu Internal Quality Shinsu Control.

The extrapolation of physical stats from Zahard Princesses to Zahard himself is absurd. Zahard Princesses can withstand attacks orders of magnitude above what they themselves can dish out.


Maschenny survived Zahard's Lecalicus, but her ultimate attack could barely damage his mask.

Maschenny's durability >>>>> Maschenny's AP.

Yuri took zero damage from an unguarded point blank reflection of several dozen of her Nuclear Punches.

Yuri's durability >>>>>> Yuri's AP.


In contrast, Baam's Endless Sky took Zahard's Arm with ease.

Meanwhile, Zahard's Second Cosmos seems to be even stronger than that.

Zahard's AP >>>> Zahard's Durability.


So no, Zahard himself just isn't as physically unbalanced as his Princesses.
 

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Emitting sparks like that is just their shinsu quality. It shows the shinsu coursing through them.

When Maschenny became excited to confront Zahard she began emitting a lot of sparks. She wasn't even using any attack then.

It's similar for Eduan, the more excited he gets, the more lightning courses through him.



But this was not shown in Data Zahard vs Eduan.

Eduan without using Internal Quality Shinsu Control kept up with a Zahard that was using Shinwonryu Internal Quality Shinsu Control.

The extrapolation of physical stats from Zahard Princesses to Zahard himself is absurd. Zahard Princesses can withstand attacks orders of magnitude above what they themselves can dish out.


Maschenny survived Zahard's Lecalicus, but her ultimate attack could barely damage his mask.

Maschenny's durability >>>>> Maschenny's AP.

Yuri took zero damage from an unguarded point blank reflection of several dozen of her Nuclear Punches.

Yuri's durability >>>>>> Yuri's AP.


In contrast, Baam's Endless Sky took Zahard's Arm with ease.

Meanwhile, Zahard's Second Cosmos seems to be even stronger than that.

Zahard's AP >>>> Zahard's Durability.


So no, Zahard himself just isn't as physically unbalanced as his Princesses.
??? Maschenny didn't survive zahard's lecalicus, you are obviously misunderstanding something in here,zahard just let her live due to her courage, nothing more
 

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??? Maschenny didn't survive zahard's lecalicus, you are obviously misunderstanding something in here,zahard just let her live due to her courage, nothing more
She stood up from Lecalicus:
 

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Emitting sparks like that is just their shinsu quality. It shows the shinsu coursing through them.

When Maschenny became excited to confront Zahard she began emitting a lot of sparks. She wasn't even using any attack then.

It's similar for Eduan, the more excited he gets, the more lightning courses through him.



But this was not shown in Data Zahard vs Eduan.

Eduan without using Internal Quality Shinsu Control kept up with a Zahard that was using Shinwonryu Internal Quality Shinsu Control.

The extrapolation of physical stats from Zahard Princesses to Zahard himself is absurd. Zahard Princesses can withstand attacks orders of magnitude above what they themselves can dish out.


Maschenny survived Zahard's Lecalicus, but her ultimate attack could barely damage his mask.

Maschenny's durability >>>>> Maschenny's AP.

Yuri took zero damage from an unguarded point blank reflection of several dozen of her Nuclear Punches.

Yuri's durability >>>>>> Yuri's AP.


In contrast, Baam's Endless Sky took Zahard's Arm with ease.

Meanwhile, Zahard's Second Cosmos seems to be even stronger than that.

Zahard's AP >>>> Zahard's Durability.


So no, Zahard himself just isn't as physically unbalanced as his Princesses.
Baam's Endless Sky is much stronger than Second cosmos. Plus majority of zahard's AP comes from his weapon,You can't show this as proof of zahard's strength is better than his durability. Baam was already able to be fight with second cosmos when he was only using black shinsu albeit he was on defensive. Baam with thorn pierced,was strong to a point he was able to take zahard's arm with ease meaning Baam's endless sky is much stronger than second cosmos. Zahard was only able to match with baam's thorn pierced form with third cosmos.

As i said you can't put zahard's lecalicus weapon in here considering it has nothing to do with his physical strength, Regular zahard princess who aren't from 10 families only has more durable bodies than ordinary rankers while regular zahard princess (from 10 families) has physical abilities exceeds of a ranker. It basically means zahard's physical durability is far better than his physical strength.

Ha yurin is better at shinsu enchanment while zahard has greatest physical stats with his durability being better than his other physical stats. Though ha yurin probably has strongest body after zahard.

Plus external shinsu quality control doesn't necesirally mean worse than internal shinsu quality control. Also we don't even know what effects Zahard's internal shinsu quality control's effects. Khun eduan was using external shinsu quality control while z was using external shinsu control. Plus it was mentioned many times in story that khun eduan has best shinsu quality among 13 gw meaning his control over shinsu quality is best as well as his shinsu quality is best.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

She stood up from Lecalicus:
He was suprised of her will not her body or anything. Zahard also knows that zahard princess has such tough bodies to a point they have ten thousand times stronger body than ordinary people. Data z let her live because of her courage,he was only suprised because of mas's wish of fighting him. He later comments ''Did you really wanted to challenge me that badly? I hope you realized the dream you couldn't hope on outside''
 

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He was suprised of her will not her body or anything. Zahard also knows that zahard princess has such tough bodies to a point they have ten thousand times stronger body than ordinary people. Data z let her live because of her courage,he was only suprised because of mas's wish of fighting him. He later comments ''Did you really wanted to challenge me that badly? I hope you realized the dream you couldn't hope on outside''
Yes, she could survive his attack because of her body that is "tens of thousands of times stronger than ordinary people".

Zahard wasn't surprised that she survived it because he knows just how extremely durable she is.
 

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My guess:

Enryu> Zahard and Urek> V> Hon> Eduan> Blossom> Yurin> Gustang> Hana> Bloodmadder> Arlene> Tperie.

Story-wise, it makes sense for Zahard to be stronger than Urek but Urek himself is a weird variable in all of this. I wonder what SIU is planning with him. I think he might be stronger than Zahard, he is not portrayed as inferior at least. I wonder how they compare as the top Fishermen. I hope we'll at least Urek's attribute in this data world.

Didn't rank Han and the Lo Po Bia's heads. They are even more mysterious than V and Arlen. The Ari must be related to the Arie in a way but we heard nothing about it or their clan in general. I think the Lo Po Bia head is stronger than Gustang at best and Han maybe above Eduan.



Hon is stated to be strongest of the 10 so he should be stronger than Eduan. But maybe things have changed.
It was mentioned many times in story that top 3 family heads are incomparable compared to other family heads. Arie hon himself said the only families comparable to arie family are khun and ha family. However, arie hon is slightly stronger than both khun eduan and yurin. Blossom if we are talking about her only offensive capabilities then i'm pretty sure she would pretty much destroy everyone except V but her defensive capabilities is likely worse than other family heads which didn't make her comparable to top 3 family heads.

Agreed with V being above other great warriors except zahard. Blossom should be much better than V as wave controller,however it's likely that V's position is likely a hybrid like baam who is both wave controller(shinsu tension) and fisherman ( martial arts) which would make him stronger than pretty much every great warrior except for zahard.Plus considering how zahard and V fought with each other and arlene had to intervene to stop them it's quite likely V is slightly weaker than Zahard. But ZAHARD should be undoubtly strongest.

I think zahard should be stronger than urek due to plot or story-wise considering he just looks like either final boss or second last boss,however urek is just a weird variable like you said but i would put zahard above urek in anycase considering zahard is more experienced as well as more skilled than urek.

Lo po bia family head or Ari han aren't comparable to top 3 family heads. I would put them below blossom,it's quite likely blossom is strongest after top 3 Family heads.

I wouldn't put gustang above hana either, Hana should be just below blossom or ari han to me, Arlene should be weakest or one of weakest in combat but i would say she might be useful in every type of situation which would make her pretty useful.

Phanta > Enryu > Zahard and Urek? > V > Hon > Eduan > Yurin > Blossom > Ari Han > Hana > LPB > Tperie > Gustang > Arlene > Bloodmadder
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Yes, she could survive his attack because of her body that is "tens of thousands of times stronger than ordinary people".

Zahard wasn't surprised that she survived it because he knows just how extremely durable she is.
Do you know what is meaning of holding back?

Zahard himself admitted that he let him live because he liked her courage as well as trying to finish the fight ''gently''. What you are trying to say Maschenny is durable enough to be alive even after data z used lecalicus which is ridiculous considering Data z can control what amount of strength he can use with lecalicus.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

for me, Jahad is stronger.

V had the best tension but that's it really.

Ha Yurin would most likely destroy him in physical confrontation.

current Jahad would most likely mop the floor with every FH easily (one on one ofc).

I don't know where people get this idea that V is equal or stronger than Jahad or Arie for that matter.

probably because he is the father of MC.
Agreed Zahard is without a doubt is strongest among 13 great warriors as Khun eduan said Zahard was ''undoubtly'' our leader however V should be slightly weaker than him considering They always fought with eacher to a point arlene had to intervene to stop them. Plus you are obviosuly underestimating their fight in here they both had completely ''opposite'' personalities as well as never agreed with each other in a point would basically make them fight like dogs. V fighting with zahard is on a whole level compared to data eduan and data z's arguements. V being slightly weaker than zahard would make sense to me.

Plus Khun eduan himself said if i were to choose a King among us i would choose your father. You might argue by saying but maybe it was because of his personality but khun eduan himself is someone who respects to strong considering he only brings 3 super strong person with him. Just being good as king with personality wouldn't make eduan acknowledge V considering he would be just thrown by others as weak king. V should be comparable to top 3 family heads at the very least if not slightly weaker than zahard.

How do you know that ha yurin would most likely destroy V in a physical confrontation dude? It's quite likely that Baam inherited Arlene's physical abilities not V considering V was a swordsman/needlesman. Swordsman and needlesman might not necessarily have stronger body than martial art masters but their body should be quite strong compared to wave controllers, And baam's physical strength is not even comparable to wave controllers who are comparable to him in invidiual combat strength much less swordsman or needlesman. Ha yurin might have stronger body as than V but it's not to a point she can destroy V plus if it's a fight between V and Ha Yurin without shinsu then i would put my bet on V considering ha yurin doesn't look like care about martial arts unlike jinsung while V should have better advantage due to martial arts and being swordsman/needlesman
 
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Hon was talking about the power of the family overall, not their individual strength.
 

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Koons have not really been portrayed as superior to most. What we know in terms of physical abilities is that Zahard Family> Ha Familiy> The rest. And there is the Hendo Lok Family for defense. You might have that impression because A.A and Ran are Baam's friends. It's never been said that Koon are better than most of the others. Ran is physically strong but he is the greatest genius among Koon and is from a special bloodline, that's what both Maschenny and Inieta(who is not a member of the direct bloodline) said. A.A of course is strong too but it's not like he has shown incredible physical feats aginst another 10F member of note. The only moment I remember where he compared his physical strength to someone was during his fight against Hatsu, which is why he praised him since he was able to stop the attack of a 10F member.

Despite Ran's incredible strength even for a Koon, he was physically weaker than Anak, who is not even as powerful as normal Princesses. Data Eduan did trade blows with Data Zahard but they fought for a short period and it's not like the fight was purely physical since they were using Shinwonryu, all of this matter.

Eduan's skills with spears should match Hon's skills with swords so I think Koon's spearmanship should have certain specifics making it OP.
No,Khun family's spearmanship should be far inferior to arie family's swordmanship.


1.Though khun family spearmanship is most powerful spearmanship in tower but it was never portrayed , shown or was mentioned OP as arie family swordmanship. Arie family swordmanship always looked more powerful considering it's abilities as well as Adori zahard and royal guards are only getting arie swordmanship style not khun spearmanship.

2.Khun Eduan already has his own field(shinsu quality) as well as having strongest physical abilities after ha yurin among 10 FH,if SIU were to write khun family spearmanship as comparable to arie swordmanship then Arie hon wouldn't be strongest among 10 family head in the first place considering Arie hon is physically weaker than khun eduan. Since being best at shinsu quality as well as having a spearmanship comparable to arie swordmanship would make him stronger than arie hon.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Hon was talking about the power of the family overall, not their individual strength.
No, it was mentioned many times in story that arie hon,khun eduan and ha yurin are strongest among 10 families, it was stated by sachi that arie hon,khun eduan and ha yurin are strongest in close-combat.

Arie hon didn't talk about power of family overall even if he talked about it, In a fight between families only ''HEAD OF FAMILY'' is matters, As such even if blossom has strongest non-irregular in her family it wouldn't make her family comparable to arie family considering blossom would murder enne while being half-sleep. Plus ha family only has 2 direct descendant which wouldn't make them powerful at all. Sure being direct descendant doesn't necessarily means better considering Ha yuri is most talented in her family even though Ha yurin is her great-grandmother but direct descendants are generally better than others.
 

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Using a needle does not necessarily mean you excel at physical combat/toughness. The needle is the tower's most generic/versatile weapon due to it's design that is highly functional within shinsoo. In that regard while V was almost definitely a needle user (given the black march, bam getting the black march and most representations of V having a needle) this tells us very little of his actual specs. Add to that the only trait of V we are familiar with is his high tension... Which bam inherited and was a prerequisite for the orb. However tension is ultimately beneficial to any type of fighter. Add to that, given eduan's words about not having seen an orb before it sounds like a solid bet that none of the family heads were orb users up to the hell train. It also wouldn't be strange at all if eventually bam discovers his secondary shinsoo attribute is some form of needle.

Yurin is definitely an excellent martial artist. Jinsung made the point that the ha were technicians, this definitely includes the literal origin of their traits. To me it sounds like a pretty safe bet that yurin would be the second strongest of the 13 warriors in pure physical combat that allows reinforcement. Zahard of course would have an edge due to his BS strong body. Though it's plausible yurin is a better martial artist than zahard.
 

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No, it was mentioned many times in story that arie hon,khun eduan and ha yurin are strongest among 10 families, it was stated by sachi that arie hon,khun eduan and ha yurin are strongest in close-combat.

Arie hon didn't talk about power of family overall even if he talked about it, In a fight between families only ''HEAD OF FAMILY'' is matters, As such even if blossom has strongest non-irregular in her family it wouldn't make her family comparable to arie family considering blossom would murder enne while being half-sleep. Plus ha family only has 2 direct descendant which wouldn't make them powerful at all. Sure being direct descendant doesn't necessarily means better considering Ha yuri is most talented in her family even though Ha yurin is her great-grandmother but direct descendants are generally better than others.
I don't remember a single page where it has been said that Hon, Eduan and Yurin are the strongest fighters. What we know is that Hon is the second strongest after Zahard and that he has a rivalry with Eduan.

I don't remember that part about them being the best at close combat either but being the best at close combat =/= being stronger.

I don't see why only the Heads's strength would matter in a fight against families. It makes no sense.
 
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