Final Match Reinhard van Astrea vs. Homura Akemi

Who wins?

  • Reinhard van Astrea

  • Homura Akemi


The results of this poll are hidden until it is manually edited by the user or site admin.

Sky

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Battle Phase
  • You are allowed to vote for one champion.
  • After 3 days, the champion with the most votes will proceed into the next round.
  • In case of a tie, a staff pick will break it.
  • There will be no additional restrictions. A character will have access to all of his/her abilities according to the lore.
 

lakhan220

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If i got power of homura correctly in last battle, she is an abstract , a concept in itself and can rewrite universes, manipulate memories , stop time, rewind/reverse time.

Also, if i remember hall of memories in re zero, it says it records the different timelines of subaru he rewinds post his death everytime is recorded by od lagune, something may or may not be conscious. if conscious, prone to memory manipulation .

In any case, as long as homura rewrites universe and concepts pertaining to it, she can rewrite od laguna or write it out of existence too.
She also is supposed to have powers of God madoka, and she is banned in this contest, so basically the way i see it, homura rewrites the very laws of authority blessings etc, can make reid sword which cuts reality an abstract concept in itself or even make it powerless.

So, imo, w/e reinhard benefits he has from od laguna, homura can make the concept itself non - existing. So, am inclined to vote for homura, but will wait for respective nominators to post campaigns and also point out if i have misunderstood homura's powers.
 

GrySun

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Also leaning towards Homura winning. Did Reinhard finally get outhaxed?
 

Hardy

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Can Homura rewrite Reinhard's memory into something very simple minded like a chicken or someone that believes Vegeta can teleport?
 

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Can Homura rewrite Reinhard's memory into something very simple minded like a chicken or someone that believes Vegeta can teleport?
Gonna need a senzu bean for that burn.
 

Static

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How hax is Homura's memory manipulation? There is a character in Re Zero, who when he touches you, can erase both your memories and your 'name' i.e to say the victim's memories are lost and every single person in the universe will end up forgetting that person. Furthermore, the victim will also fall into an eternally suspended state without a soul and history itself will be rewritten to adjust to the 'non-existence' of the person. Yet Reinhard is unaffected by this.

Anyways, idk anything about Homura since I haven't read the previous threads on her. Can anyone summarize her powers for me?
 

Lambu

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Best of luck @Asako o/

Both finalists are monsters, very close match.
Homura doesn't have anything to "hurt" Reinhard but she's a Witch of great influence, she can be tricky while Rein's forte is the combat.

Problem of Akuma Homura is that she's featless, as she's a mirror of Madoka and she doesn't have combat feats either after trascending.
She doesn't have Authority over the Universe tho thats for sure, neither does Madoka. If they did they would have been able to rewrite the Universe to save all magical girls and they couldn't do it.

She can certainly oversee multiple timelines but its unknown whether or not she is above them. Seems like stuff Asa will have to elaborate on.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

How hax is Homura's memory manipulation? There is a character in Re Zero, who when he touches you, can erase both your memories and your 'name' i.e to say the victim's memories are lost and every single person in the universe will end up forgetting that person. Furthermore, the victim will also fall into an eternally suspended state without a soul and history itself will be rewritten to adjust to the 'non-existence' of the person. Yet Reinhard is unaffected by this.

Anyways, idk anything about Homura since I haven't read the previous threads on her. Can anyone summarize her powers for me?
Memory/Mind manipulation is one of the greatest weapons of Homura. Reinhard's memories and name cannot be overwritten tho its unknown whether or not he's completely unaffected by the history rewrite if its used on someone else. He remembers his mother even when she was erased but we dont know enough details.

Still yeah, she cannot directly control his mind, Wrath's Authority couldn't do it either.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

If i got power of homura correctly in last battle, she is an abstract , a concept in itself and can rewrite universes, manipulate memories , stop time, rewind/reverse time.

Also, if i remember hall of memories in re zero, it says it records the different timelines of subaru he rewinds post his death everytime is recorded by od lagune, something may or may not be conscious. if conscious, prone to memory manipulation .

In any case, as long as homura rewrites universe and concepts pertaining to it, she can rewrite od laguna or write it out of existence too.
She also is supposed to have powers of God madoka, and she is banned in this contest, so basically the way i see it, homura rewrites the very laws of authority blessings etc, can make reid sword which cuts reality an abstract concept in itself or even make it powerless.

So, imo, w/e reinhard benefits he has from od laguna, homura can make the concept itself non - existing. So, am inclined to vote for homura, but will wait for respective nominators to post campaigns and also point out if i have misunderstood homura's powers.
She cannot rewrite the Universe. She can go back in time/make different timelines but she's by no means omnipotent in her own Universe.

Also the argument of "Madoka was banned, Homura is her equal so she autowins" is not serious. Satella was also banned for being an abstract being (beyond timelines and all) yet she cannot defeat Reinhard.
 

Static

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Best of luck @Asako o/

Both finalists are monsters, very close match.
Homura doesn't have anything to "hurt" Reinhard but she's a Witch of great influence, she can be tricky while Rein's forte is the combat.

Problem of Akuma Homura is that she's featless, as she's a mirror of Madoka and she doesn't have combat feats either after trascending.
She doesn't have Authority over the Universe tho thats for sure, neither does Madoka. If they did they would have been able to rewrite the Universe to save all magical girls and they couldn't do it.

She can certainly oversee multiple timelines but its unknown whether or not she is above them. Seems like stuff Asa will have to elaborate on.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Memory/Mind manipulation is one of the greatest weapons of Homura. Reinhard's memories and name cannot be overwritten tho its unknown whether or not he's completely unaffected by the history rewrite if its used on someone else. He remembers his mother even when she was erased but we dont know enough details.

Still yeah, she cannot directly control his mind, Wrath's Authority couldn't do it either.
--- Double Post Merged, ---



She cannot rewrite the Universe. She can go back in time/make different timelines but she's by no means omnipotent in her own Universe.

Also the argument of "Madoka was banned, Homura is her equal so she autowins" is not serious. Satella was also banned for being an abstract being (beyond timelines and all) yet she cannot defeat Reinhard.
Was Louanna actually wiped by Gluttony? Heinkel and others seem to remember her so I don't think it was Gluttony's doing.

And yeah, Rein is probably highly resistant to Authorities, not completely immune. He was still affected somewhat by Wrath's Authority.
 

Hardy

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Asking serious stuff here:

Madoka has broken universal laws, can't Homura do it for Rein's?

How does Rein even scratch her? Let alone the fact that she is omnipresent and beyond conceptual, I understood that she is aware of every possible outcome and future, is she not?

Rein still needs to eat, drink and ages, right? She could put him in that World sized Maze and let time pass.
 

Seven777

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Couldn't Homura just go terminator on Reinhard? Kill him before he's even born?

She's omnipresent and omniscient too, right? So she could easily just kill Felt as well, drop her at Reinhard's feet.
 

Static

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Couldn't Homura just go terminator on Reinhard? Kill him before he's even born?

She's omnipresent and omniscient too, right? So she could easily just kill Felt as well, drop her at Reinhard's feet.
That is a good point. Rein would definitely lose his will to fight if she kills Felt or for that matter, everyone else he cares about. Is that allowed in the tournament rules though?
 

Asako

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Good luck to you too lambu


Blessings guy is definitely op but i seem to have found a way to counter him
Labyrinth...
As seen blessing only work if you're not isolated form od lagune but labyrinth are in a totally different dimension they cut out form the outside world
Witches can control everything that happens inside their labyrinth with their emotions
It's a maze of emotions...it sucks you in
And as seen in rebellion all those that got in, their memory got alternated

Really if he could want to defeat homura, he could need to be in the labyrinth where the center is homura but that could also make him lose Od lagune blessing making him vulnerable

Plus reinhard blessing dodge certainly op but can he really dodge an aoe attack that cover the whole area
It's technically undodgeable
When you faced to against this




Not to forget homura also have time stop
She can use the time in her time stop to set off a billion of c4 as seen here


Not only that but she can combo with bunch of bazookas



About her mind manipulation


Can Homura rewrite Reinhard's memory into something very simple minded like a chicken or someone that believes Vegeta can teleport?
I mean, i don't think she can change meme him into being a chicken but she definitely can make him forget what his powers were and what was his purpose
Hmm, i mean there shouldn't be an abnormal person in a bunch of other humans, but she can just break his mind technically.... Still deferent than being a chicken



How hax is Homura's memory manipulation? There is a character in Re Zero, who when he touches you, can erase both your memories and your 'name' i.e to say the victim's memories are lost and every single person in the universe will end up forgetting that person. Furthermore, the victim will also fall into an eternally suspended state without a soul and history itself will be rewritten to adjust to the 'non-existence' of the person. Yet Reinhard is unaffected by this.

Anyways, idk anything about Homura since I haven't read the previous threads on her. Can anyone summarize her powers for me?
Well for gluttunity, they technically have requirement so they erase memory, homura doesn't have any of that as long as you're in her realm where she can manipulate... Where she the center of it
So reinhard could need to be in to even be able to have a chance but it kinda also debuff him
He won't be able to find homura unless he there

Asking serious stuff here:

Madoka has broken universal laws, can't Homura do it for Rein's?

How does Rein even scratch her? Let alone the fact that she is omnipresent and beyond conceptual, I understood that she is aware of every possible outcome and future, is she not?

Rein still needs to eat, drink and ages, right? She could put him in that World sized Maze and let time pass.
She technically did but also didn't, it had it's limitation considering even tho she did break some of the law of the universe, she couldn't break all of it
I don't think homura can erase someone that already existed form being there but she can manipulate their memory into what she wish

Not really ... She isn't really aware of all the future, same as madoka was, they just overseer of universe but they can't predict abnormal stuff as seen with madoka in both rebellion and magireco
Tho with homura she does have the ability to rewind time so.... She technically can know ?

Well homura definitely did surpass mortal needs and she does have a maze cut of the outside world
But she is the center of the maze, she needs to be in so it works.
Reinhard could need to find his way in the maze and find her first, but good luck with that... She can afterall appear in a place while she invisible to others if she want... In an other void


Couldn't Homura just go terminator on Reinhard? Kill him before he's even born?

She's omnipresent and omniscient too, right? So she could easily just kill Felt as well, drop her at Reinhard's feet.
Are those allowed is the question ?
For the first one, i could say not really, homura time Rewind is only limited to one month in her magical girl form, and as for akuma homura she never shown to be able to do sth like that (not like she needed) so i rather avoid sth like that we uncertain of

For felt even if she not allowed in, homura can definitely make him think that happen...


Meanwhile the clara dolls this round are busy playing DDR


I wonder can reinhard even manage to find this part in the maze =3=
As seen here even tho they there kyoko isn't even aware of their presence and if she did, she could been already in a DDR battle with them :XD

Vote for homura the DDR champion trainer


--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

If i got power of homura correctly in last battle, she is an abstract , a concept in itself and can rewrite universes, manipulate memories , stop time, rewind/reverse time.

Also, if i remember hall of memories in re zero, it says it records the different timelines of subaru he rewinds post his death everytime is recorded by od lagune, something may or may not be conscious. if conscious, prone to memory manipulation .

In any case, as long as homura rewrites universe and concepts pertaining to it, she can rewrite od laguna or write it out of existence too.
She also is supposed to have powers of God madoka, and she is banned in this contest, so basically the way i see it, homura rewrites the very laws of authority blessings etc, can make reid sword which cuts reality an abstract concept in itself or even make it powerless.

So, imo, w/e reinhard benefits he has from od laguna, homura can make the concept itself non - existing. So, am inclined to vote for homura, but will wait for respective nominators to post campaigns and also point out if i have misunderstood homura's powers.
I mean she can definitely cut od laguna influence as seen by the fact blessing needs to be in a realm connected to od laguna, if not then it's outside it's influence, she just need to cut that connection and she can with her labyrinth

About his sword, she can simply seal his powers =3=
 

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Going with Homu Homu here because of the reasons i mentioned in the previous round


 

lakhan220

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She cannot rewrite the Universe. She can go back in time/make different timelines but she's by no means omnipotent in her own Universe.

Also the argument of "Madoka was banned, Homura is her equal so she autowins" is not serious. Satella was also banned for being an abstract being (beyond timelines and all) yet she cannot defeat Reinhard.
had it's limitation considering even tho she did break some of the law of the universe, she couldn't break all of it
breaking laws of universe synonymous to rewriting it as to what she sees fit for herself is still a huge feat

I don't really think, seriousness is even a debate here since if koko is right, akuma homura is multiversal, oversees multiple universes, has god bow whose effect i don't know yet, can cut connection entirely of reinhard from od laguna as koko and someone else mentioned and vast other multitude of powers.
Can break laws of the universe as she sees fit, even if not all is a huge feat
The sheer magnitude when madoka gets involved is different, is it not ? So, satella maybe the non serious case, madoka is not from what i get.

As for feats of akuma homura and such, i ain't tht well versed in either of characters, but instead u can provide arguments as to how reinhard is going to beat homura. because from post above, all I got was he can resist memory manipulation.

Separated from od laguna and reid sealed, how do u think he would beat her ? I would like elaboration on tht if u can or basically winning scenarios tht u have thought of..

I mean she can definitely cut od laguna influence as seen by the fact blessing needs to be in a realm connected to od laguna, if not then it's outside it's influence, she just need to cut that connection and she can with her labyrinth

About his sword, she can simply seal his powers =3=
Hmm I see. Will wait for lambu to counter tht.
 

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Was Louanna actually wiped by Gluttony? Heinkel and others seem to remember her so I don't think it was Gluttony's doing.

And yeah, Rein is probably highly resistant to Authorities, not completely immune. He was still affected somewhat by Wrath's Authority.
Louanna is in the "Sleeping Beauty" state, which is a sign of those who had their name eaten. Still yeah, Heinkel remembers her for some reason so thats strange.

Also yes, Reinhard is highly resistant against Authorities, not completely inmune. Homura cannot control his mind as she does to others tho even if we equate her ability to an Authority, which seems fair since she practically became a Witch after trascending.

Blessings guy is definitely op but i seem to have found a way to counter him
Labyrinth...
As seen blessing only work if you're not isolated form od lagune but labyrinth are in a totally different dimension they cut out form the outside world
Witches can control everything that happens inside their labyrinth with their emotions
It's a maze of emotions...it sucks you in
And as seen in rebellion all those that got in, their memory got alternated

Really if he could want to defeat homura, he could need to be in the labyrinth where the center is homura but that could also make him lose Od lagune blessing making him vulnerable
What I said before, Reinhard is highly resistant against Authorities that control minds.
This Witch Labyrinth is a dimension created by Homura in which she can control minds and make them forget about events prior to the movie. This is basically Akuma Homura's only feat. Is that correct?

This dimension born from Homura shouldn't be enough to negate Reinhard's protections simply because it is a pocket dimension created by her, like the Citadel of Satella in Re:Zero which is a space beyond the flow of time (she summons Subaru's soul there everytime he dies, then sends him off to the next timeline).

Also reminds me of Satella's shadow that engulfs the World and swallows the people's souls, adding them to her own being and preventing the target from dying and thinking. Subaru only managed to kill himself once entering the shadow thanks to Echidna's intervention (and this shadow was just a small fragment of Envy sent by the real Satella while being sealed).

Nothing of that would work on Reinhard so I dont see how Labyrinth would be effective on him. His memories cannot be erased or rewritten either so Homura's greatest asset is not working here.
As for the Labyrinth itself Im pretty sure he can just slash the dimension open like he did with his own World and escape it if he were to need it, like this I guess




Yeah I dont have footage... disadvantages of promoting a LN character <_>

I mean she can definitely cut od laguna influence as seen by the fact blessing needs to be in a realm connected to od laguna, if not then it's outside it's influence, she just need to cut that connection and she can with her labyrinth

About his sword, she can simply seal his powers =3=
Homura's Labyrinth is not a realm outside of the Universe but a dimension born of her powers. Od Laguna on the other hand admins the Universe autonomously , its something beyond what Akuma Homura can reach.

How does a "Goddess" seal the powers of a God that is higher than her in the hierarchy?
Im not saying she cannot counter some of Reinhard's blessings, what Im saying is that she cannot rewrite or seal Reinhard, she's not stated to have that Authority at all and you said it yourself, please be clear.

Also how do you seal the Concept busting divine Sword's powers in the first place?

breaking laws of universe synonymous to rewriting it as to what she sees fit for herself is still a huge feat

I don't really think, seriousness is even a debate here since if koko is right, akuma homura is multiversal, oversees multiple universes, has god bow whose effect i don't know yet, can cut connection entirely of reinhard from od laguna as koko and someone else mentioned and vast other multitude of powers.
Can break laws of the universe as she sees fit, even if not all is a huge feat
The sheer magnitude when madoka gets involved is different, is it not ? So, satella maybe the non serious case, madoka is not from what i get.

As for feats of akuma homura and such, i ain't tht well versed in either of characters, but instead u can provide arguments as to how reinhard is going to beat homura. because from post above, all I got was he can resist memory manipulation.

Separated from od laguna and reid sealed, how do u think he would beat her ? I would like elaboration on tht if u can or basically winning scenarios tht u have thought of..



Hmm I see. Will wait for lambu to counter tht.
Asako literally said Homura cannot rewrite the universe as she sees fit, read carefully.

Also Asako isn't very sure about what Homura can or cannot do (we both know it Ko) so she's going to play the "Suspension of disbelief" card for the match. I get it, its the best move she has given how much people are hyping Homura beyond her proven capabilities but the actual character is different.

This is what Homura can do from what Im reading in her lore (not the friggin battle wikias) and Asako's clarifications in both thread and discord:

- She's an entity that can oversee the timelines of Madoka universe but cannot manipulate them at will.
- She can turn back time/start a new timeline, the set limit for this is 1 month, no more than that.
- She can create a dimension in which she can control the thoughts and memories of the people within.
- She can "stop time" (or infinitely slow it) for a set duration. Reinhard cannot be defeated through this either since Satella can also stop time and she cannot defeat him.
- She can fire guns, bazookas and other explosive weaponry against his opponents from multiple angles at the same time.
- She can manifest herself in a timeline while overseeing it from outside (Asako please correct this if Im wrong).

This is what she does and its proved to be capable of doing. Homura is powerful but Im seeing too many assumptions on her favour.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

As for how Reinhard wins Asako said it.
If Homura can be defeated by ending her inside her own Citadel/Labyrinth then Reinhard has very good chances of doing it.
Asako also said that Homura cannot exist in multiple timelines at the same time (and if she can it was never stated). She's not above the timelines, she can move through them.

So its actually a very very close match.
 
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Asako

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The thing is lambu, blessing description is literally they can temportly be stripped if the area is isolated, homura labyrinth is isolated form outside
He gonna lose his blessings inside of it, the thing that makes him counter homura mind manipulation
Labyrinth is one where a witch manipulate it by their emotions they feel, it moves as they will and that's why it's called a maze too cuz it is a maze
Doesn't help that homura can excited in a place but not be noticed, you know like a ghost....
 

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From my understanding Reinhard cant be influenced by god powers, not because of his blessings, but because of that damn sword. As long as he has the Reid sword, god powers "should not" work on him, or he is just higly resistant to them. Otherwise like in the parody chapter, Solomon's Wisdom and the Sacred Palace would have outhaxed him. But this does look a more even fight. Its basically Reinhard vs Satella right?
 

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Its basically Reinhard vs Satella right?
Basically, yes. Homura and Satella share many traits, specially the "beyond time" quality.

The thing is lambu, blessing description is literally they can temportly be stripped if the area is isolated, homura labyrinth is isolated form outside
He gonna lose his blessings inside of it, the thing that makes him counter homura mind manipulation
Labyrinth is one where a witch manipulate it by their emotions they feel, it moves as they will and that's why it's called a maze too cuz it is a maze
Doesn't help that homura can excited in a place but not be noticed, you know like a ghost....
Blessings can be nerfed through isolation from Od Laguna (like Gates can be influenced through magic isolation circles, as shown in the Demihuman war) but they cannot be stripped off, as Reinhard still could use the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint inside one of these domains, he just couldn't use all his blessings freely.

Besides he can destroy Homura's "bubble" thanks to Reid and come out at any time. Rein's kit is designed to fight Witches like her.

Rein's only issue is that, even if insanely powerful, he's still a proxy of Od Laguna.
Since he moves inside its boundaries and cannot cross through timelines, if Homura escapes through that route he cannot follow her, tho then there would be another Rein waiting for her in the other world... :lambirb
 
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So what's to stop Homura from just drawing him into the labyrinth to nerf or remove his blessings, keep his phoenix blessing from being renewed, making him believe his Dragon Sword is a rotten banana, putting a hand grenade in each of his pockets then walking away all like...



Then the instant he respawns doing it again, if he still can. Except this time maybe drawing a bunch of dicks on his forehead and putting a mirror in front of him?

If at any any stage anything starts to go wrong. Poof. Back in time she goes. What exactly prevents her from doing that?
 
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Can't Homura basically rewind time every time it's not looking well against Reinhard, giving her infinite retries to figure out the best way to both prepare for the battle against him and to do things better/differently?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Which frankly didn't help against Walpurgisnacht, but in the god form Homura should have a lot more options than she had in her weaker state.
 
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