Final Match Reinhard van Astrea vs. Homura Akemi

Who wins?

  • Reinhard van Astrea

  • Homura Akemi


The results of this poll are hidden until it is manually edited by the user or site admin.

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Elessar

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the power of madoka reference to other series is too powerful


( i needed to post this somewhere but didnt find a place so here)
Well, if Lambu doesn't try harder I'll just go full anime Roy Mustang and vote her because skirt.
 

Valhalla777

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if youre wondering what happen to lambu, homura already finished him off


Ho ho :^_^ impressive
most impressive indeed






I mean, it is a work week.. :amuse

Not to mention I feel like Lambu is approaching the status of...
Lambu might still push back.
Just like Subaru, after all the suffering, eventually he will jump back to action, right? :amuse

 
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Asako

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Homu homu will lead you to happiness so vote for homu homu



Right now you're seeing homura in her natural habitat, getting ready for her date after beating reinhard
Love makes you quirky
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Ho ho :^_^ impressive
most impressive indeed
Glad you liked it with my 10/10 shitty editing skills
As always my Photoshop only used to meme for MH
 

Lambu

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@Lambu Don't die on me! You still have one more task to fulfill...this is your obligation! :arf
I dont have the time or energy to fight like before, Im too drained from the last round.

Also Im tired of repeating the same thing every single time.


@Asako answer me and dont answer Jammin because unlike with me he wont question any of your claims.

- In what do you base your argument of Labyrinth blocking Divine Blessings? I can't find a single instance in which says that ability blocks or seals powers stronger than her. I told you "How does she nerf the powers of a God above her status like Od Laguna?" And you didnt answer, you just said she can because you think she can.

- I said that Reinhard once fought in a space specially designed to disable his blessings in one of the IF stories, I said in my last post.
Even in that case his blessings were not stripped off, they were just weakened and he could have destroyed that domain at any moment since he could use the Dragon Sword to do it but chose not to.

What makes reinhard so op isn't the sword but his blessings, certainly the sword give him the boost for the fact he can cut through anything but there a reason why the previous swords saints weren't as powerful as reinhard
The blessing, one of the previous sword saints is literally now being manipulated as a zombie, the sword certainly didn't manage to protect them

What i got at least is that in my recherches it's possible to strip blessing away if the area is isolated, lambu now says it weaken it but still that does say that mind manipulation could work in her labyrinth because of that
Also homura and satella definitely have a lot in common but don't misunderstand that they the same, they not, it just the time manipulation
Satella still bound by od laguna... sealed away
The fact he be in her labyrinth is gonna make her mind manipulation possible, it doesn't matter if the sword can cut through anything if he doesn't know it plus whats stopping homura form sealing the sword in her soul gem
It's part of reinhard powers afterall

The sword can't be broken but there nothing stating it can't be sealed
You are twisting a lot of information here or straight up misinforming.

First and foremost. All Sword Saints had the Dragon Sword at their disposal and it was passed through the generations. It just couldn't be unsheathed by none of them (except Reid himself) for the opponents were not considered worthy.

Reinhard's power is the same without his blessings, he can use the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint to its maximum potential and surpass Reid because of him, not because he's the Sword Saint in name.

Theresia only had one Blessing aside of the Sword Saint's DP, compared to Reinhard that has UBW (Unlimited Blessing Works lol).
The case of Theresia was completely different because it was the Sword Saint's Blessing what made her strong, the moment she lost the blessing due to Reinhard inheriting it she was hopeless.

- Satella is not bound by Od Laguna. She's sealed so she cannot physically enter Od Laguna's domains, which she can still influence from a dimsension beyond space and time, above all the timelines contained by Od Laguna.

She has multiple Authorities and her abilities range from Mind manipulation (making the target go crazy as the Archbishop's do) to Time Stop, being able to cut the flow of time at any time she wishes and interact with the World while her powers are sealed.

None of that stuff would be enough to defeat Reinhard even when she's at full strength, yet you are saying Homura is better, even if both share the same status: A Witch that trascended the World in which she lived.

- I repeat the question. How does she seal a Sword with the power to overwhelm Authorities and powers like the ones at Homura's disposal?


I mean, while we were in Discord you admitted several times not having idea of what Homura could do for her powers are vague and the control of her Universe is limited. You even said that you dont think she can exist above timelines but manifest in them, cause nothing of that was stated at any time.

Basically your drive hinges on assuming Labyrinth isolates the target from Od Laguna and can completely disable his blessings, when its not stated anywhere.
I get that you want to win, but you have changed your discourse drastically for the match. Idk Ko, you are basically saying she can do stuff because it would be convenient of her to do it without a single source backing those powers, taking advantage of the "Unknown" status of her abilities to make claims.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Homu homu will lead you to happiness so vote for homu homu



Right now you're seeing homura in her natural habitat, getting ready for her date after beating reinhard
Love makes you quirky
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Glad you liked it with my 10/10 shitty editing skills
As always my Photoshop only used to meme for MH
Ohhh you are pulling the shameless "Vote for me please" move? Now you are going to debate. :lambirb
 

Asako

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Lambu, it's said in the movie that her labyrinth is isolated form the outside world, I'm not pulling this out of nowhere lambu, plus witch labyrinth are normally their own domain
And this is when only in her witch form, her akuma form surpassed all that
At the end her labyrinth sucked in all the universe
It's her domain now, od laguna can't interfere

I never said she need to nerf od laguna, i said she can cut the connection between reinhard and od laguna aka his blessings, whats protecting reinhard form her mind manipulation is the blessing.
Meanwhile that also make homura able to make reinhard not use his sword, she does have time manipulation after all

About the blessing, all the sources I'm getting is that it gets striped not nerfed if they in an isolated area, so you're telling me now that YouTube+google and everything in them is bullshit while you're true? Are you sure you don't remember wrong ?
Cuz I'm not finding anything that says that

Is od laguna even a higher than homura as a god, i mean it doesn't even have a consciousness
Meanwhile homura as a concept is aware of what's going on


Lambu, satella by what i mean she bound by od laguna i mean she may be powerful but she still in the world, if i had to compare satella it be homura human form as those are similar to that but not her akuma form
Homura isn't a witch she ascend witch form, kyubey even ask her what the heck she is considering she isn't witch
She became a concept
Sure I'm not sure about her limits lambu when it comes to manipulation the universe but I'm never once stated in my campaign anything related to that, I'm avoiding that hole, i already stated it's unknown if she can deleted reinhard
I said she oversees the multi universe, you asked me if she able to exist in mutli timelines at once (or that's what how i understood it)
Her time rewind is definitely timeline jump btw, as seen in the tamura manga

But all i been campaigning for is her known powers lambu

Ohhh you are pulling the shameless "Vote for me please" move? Now you are going to debate. :lambirb
I been waiting for a while for your respond, but the people demand us to be active
Ofc i use that to my advantage while you gone, i waited enough
 
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Valhalla777

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Lol i didnt even realize till now what this labyrinth is :xp im dumb
Isnt that just an alternate reality that Homura created inside her soul gem.
The soul gem broke at the end of Rebellion, and the labyrinth enveloped the entire universe. Her alternate reality became the universe.

Regular Homura wouldnt be able to use this labyrinth on an outside force, further more, i might get this completely wrong since its been a while after my last Rebellion watch, but someone like Kyubey could actually influence it from the outside, right? Freely correct me on that.

For Akuma Homura, basically the entire universe became the labyrinth. But that would mean that Rein is fighting in her own turf, which logically i think he might lose there. Shouldnt there be some equalization going on here? I know its super hard to find a neutral battleground for criminally universal haxed characters like these, especially for Homura, whose entire being is the universal labyrinth that was created after her Soul Gem broke. Its hard to think about how would she work outside her universe. Its quite hard to think of a solution since for Akuma Homura to exist on the battlefield, so must her universe/labyrinth. But that would mean that nobody inside her domain can actually win against her, except for Madoka herself.
The one weak point i see here, is that her universe/labyrinth cant influence anything thats outside. That would mean that she still cant do anything about Od Laguna. This brings up the question, can she influence Reinhard inside her universe, while Rein is connected to Od Laguna like a proxy and Od Laguna cant be influenced by her universe since it is outside it?

Questions, questions :nerd
Dont mind me that much, im just a neutral force here trying to instigate a discussion, then quickly bailing when it starts :3c
 
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Asako

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Regular Homura wouldnt be able to use this labyrinth on an outside force, further more, i might get this completely wrong since its been a while after my last Rebellion watch, but someone like Kyubey could actually influence it from the outside, right? Freely correct me on that.
You need to get inside of it if i remember to influence it, it's the reasons madokami needed to be in
And yea in the end it expanded to the universe as akuma homura

The thing is check blessings description, it literally says that you can strip someone of their blessings if you're isolated, it's stated in re zero not assumed
What's protecting reinhard form Homura mind manipulation is a blessing that make it so you resistant curses and debuff (magic)
But if reinhard wants to find homura to beat her, he could need to be in her domain as that's where she is, but that also make it so he vulnerable to her mind manipulation and her ability to control despair...


But yea that's the labyrinth i was talking about :XD
It expanded at the end of the movie to the universe
It's called a labyrinth =3= similar to a witch labyrinth
 

Lambu

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Lambu, it's said in the movie that her labyrinth is isolated form the outside world, I'm not pulling this out of nowhere lambu, plus witch labyrinth are normally their own domain
And this is when only in her witch form, her akuma form surpassed all that
At the end her labyrinth sucked in all the universe
It's her domain now, od laguna can't interfere
Im not questioning that Labyrinth is Homura's domain, what Im questioning is where did you get that Blessings would not work in it. Her labyrinth pre-akuma didn't seal other people's abilities, why now?

And for the isolation of blessings I already said its not "Strip off" its weaken. He can still access his blessings but to a lesser degree as he could draw Reid in a domain of similar characteristics (he cannot draw it without the Sword Saint Blessing), he also had his avoidance hax active but nerfed (the blessing would only make him dodge stuff with the intent to hit instead of everything).

I never said she need to nerf od laguna, i said she can cut the connection between reinhard and od laguna aka his blessings, whats protecting reinhard form her mind manipulation is the blessing.
Meanwhile that also make homura able to make reinhard not use his sword, she does have time manipulation after all
Can she actively manipulate time in her domain? Or are you adressing her ability to oversee timelines?
Answer truthfully, as far as I know she's only stated to be capable of "stopping time".

Also are you assuming the battle begins inside her labyrinth and that she can put him inside it against his will? I already explained Space-Time manipulations like Yin Magic dont work on him, you cannot yeet him into another dimension by force.

About the blessing, all the sources I'm getting is that it gets striped not nerfed if they in an isolated area, so you're telling me now that YouTube+google and everything in them is bullshit while you're true? Are you sure you don't remember wrong ?
They are using the wrong term, isolation doesn't cut the conexion with Od Laguna at no time because if it happened the person ceases to exist, it only weakens the link.

Is od laguna even a higher than homura as a god, i mean it doesn't even have a consciousness
Meanwhile homura as a concept is aware of what's going on
Od Laguna is an immobile God, it doesn't judge or has motives, its the reason for the entire Universe to exist. Monitors all its laws and all the souls within it, its Past and all the timelines going on at any moment. If it had a will it would theorically be able to resurrect anyone and create a body for them at any moment, since all concepts are gathered in it. It just follows an order set by itself tho, so no point debating it.

Homura is a Witch that achieved the power to alter her own Universe to some degree.
Conceptual entity or not she is still a witch, one doesnt brush off the other, just like Od Laguna is technically a concept but it is still a Divine object.
She's a depressed entity unable to move on from the passing of her friend. She can oversee multiple timelines but cannot change the past nor challenge the powers of her own Universe that gave her that status in the first place, just like Madoka couldn't end the Magical Girl World even when achieving the same state.

Its pretty clear to me which one is stronger.

Lambu, satella by what i mean she bound by od laguna i mean she may be powerful but she still in the world, if i had to compare satella it be homura human form as those are similar to that but not her akuma form
Homura isn't a witch she ascend witch form, kyubey even ask her what the heck she is considering she isn't witch
She became a concept
Sure I'm not sure about her limits lambu when it comes to manipulation the universe but I'm never once stated in my campaign anything related to that, I'm avoiding that hole, i already stated it's unknown if she can deleted reinhard
Satella bound by Od Laguna? She brought Subaru from Japan against his will with body and everything, she exists in a dimension beyond Od Laguna's jurisdiction as Time doesn't pass there. A Citadel that Subaru visits everytime he dies, then she sends his soul back in time/to another timeline.

Idk they both sound like the same conceptual stuff.

Also yes, you are not affirming anything about Homura's limits but you are liking posts hyping her up to that degree, thats the same thing Ko, dont be sneaky now.

I said she oversees the multi universe, you asked me if she able to exist in mutli timelines at once (or that's what how i understood it)

Her time rewind is definitely timeline jump btw, as seen in the tamura manga
I asked you that and if she can administer those timelines, as in if she's capable of altering universes beyond her own timeline (the one she rules), and you said you dont know and that you assume she can't.
Makes sense, because if she could then saving Madoka would be a piece of cake level of easy, and she cannot do it.

Also cmon, if the time rewind is timeline jump then how is it an argument that she can prevent Rein from swinging his sword or replay the match infinite times?

Like seriously, Gry asked this:

Can't Homura basically rewind time every time it's not looking well against Reinhard, giving her infinite retries to figure out the best way to both prepare for the battle against him and to do things better/differently?
And you answered this:

She certainly can, btw the reason homura can never win alone (And i mean alone, mutli other rewind she did beat Walpurgisnacht but she wasn't alone but she had to rewind cuz madoka fuck up sth, either died or... Died) against Walpurgisnacht is because she a direct counter to her guns that are technically fire, and walpurgisnacht is resistant to fire
Contradicting yourself here.

Feels like you dont quite know the limits of your nomination, which is a given when she's almost completely featless btw.


I been waiting for a while for your respond, but the people demand us to be active
Ofc i use that to my advantage while you gone, i waited enough
What response, you didn't answer my post before leaving for a while.
 

Asako

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Im not questioning that Labyrinth is Homura's domain, what Im questioning is where did you get that Blessings would not work in it. Her labyrinth pre-akuma didn't seal other people's abilities, why now?

And for the isolation of blessings I already said its not "Strip off" its weaken. He can still access his blessings but to a lesser degree as he could draw Reid in a domain of similar characteristics (he cannot draw it without the Sword Saint Blessing), he also had his avoidance hax active but nerfed (the blessing would only make him dodge stuff with the intent to hit instead of everything).
Homura labyrinth cuts influence form outside world, Reinhard gets his blessings form of laguna that is technically outside
The character in the series are using their own powers, but technically madoka did lose her god powers inside homura labyrinth considering it isolated form outside and madoka powers are related to the law of cylce

What i want is evidence lambu not talk, considering what I'm getting is contradicting what you're saying for the fact it's weakened not stripped, people using stripped as wording for a reason...

Can she actively manipulate time in her domain? Or are you adressing her ability to oversee timelines?
Answer truthfully, as far as I know she's only stated to be capable of "stopping time".

Also are you assuming the battle begins inside her labyrinth and that she can put him inside it against his will? I already explained Space-Time manipulations like Yin Magic dont work on him, you cannot yeet him into another dimension by force.
The thing is she the center of the labyrinth lambu, it follows her, it's her own powers
Her ability is literally time manipulation lambu, she able to stop it and rewind time
I'm not talking about her oversee timeline, i literally see no use of that ability in a battle so why are we mentioning it so many times

Homura is a Witch that achieved the power to alter her own Universe to some degree.
Conceptual entity or not she is still a witch, one doesnt brush off the other, just like Od Laguna is technically a concept but it is still a Divine object.
She's a depressed entity unable to move on from the passing of her friend. She can oversee multiple timelines but cannot change the past nor challenge the powers of her own Universe that gave her that status in the first place, just like Madoka couldn't end the Magical Girl World even when achieving the same state.

Its pretty clear to me which one is stronger.
For the hundred time, homura isn't a witch, it's like you're saying madokami is a magical girl
You just said od laguna have no motive
I'm not Fighting od laguna, I'm fighting Reinhard, and the fact she can cut the connection that protecting reinhard form od laguna
Homura also technically immoral btw

She's a depressed entity unable to move on from the passing of her friend.

What i know is at least homura there for the people she cares about, way better than reinhard that likes to disappear when he needed ...


Also yes, you are not affirming anything about Homura's limits but you are liking posts hyping her up to that degree, thats the same thing Ko, dont be sneaky now.
Cuz they technically true but overhyped, I'm still appreciating the support so I'm gonna like it
What matters is my posts and i did correct it
Also cmon, if the time rewind is timeline jump then how is it an argument that she can prevent Rein from swinging his sword or replay the match infinite times?

Like seriously, Gry asked this:

And you answered this:

Contradicting yourself here.

Feels like you dont quite know the limits of your nomination, which is a given when she's almost completely featless btw.
I mean, it still time rewind, what's stopping Reinhard form swinging his sword is his time stop, but if he does she can simply rebeat the samw battle and fight and other outcome
Know that the homura with walpurgisnacht was the homura way way before she got any upgrade, she disnt even have the bow at the time

The same bow that did one shot walpurgisnacht ,she got it later on

I'm well aware of homura limits, all i been stating is thing that did happen, i never involved the things I don't exactly know the limits of it aka her law rewrote


What response, you didn't answer my post before leaving for a while.
????
I did tho well before the thread died and people started asking what happen
 

Lambu

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????
I did tho well before the thread died and people started asking what happen
I meant this one here

Basically, yes. Homura and Satella share many traits, specially the "beyond time" quality.


Blessings can be nerfed through isolation from Od Laguna (like Gates can be influenced through magic isolation circles, as shown in the Demihuman war) but they cannot be stripped off, as Reinhard still could use the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint inside one of these domains, he just couldn't use all his blessings freely.

Besides he can destroy Homura's "bubble" thanks to Reid and come out at any time. Rein's kit is designed to fight Witches like her.

Rein's only issue is that, even if insanely powerful, he's still a proxy of Od Laguna.
Since he moves inside its boundaries and cannot cross through timelines, if Homura escapes through that route he cannot follow her, tho then there would be another Rein waiting for her in the other world... :lambirb
This was my last response to you but you never adressed it.


Homura labyrinth cuts influence form outside world, Reinhard gets his blessings form of laguna that is technically outside
The character in the series are using their own powers, but technically madoka did lose her god powers inside homura labyrinth considering it isolated form outside and madoka powers are related to the law of cylce

What i want is evidence lambu not talk, considering what I'm getting is contradicting what you're saying for the fact it's weakened not stripped, people using stripped as wording for a reason...
It makes no sense that characters can use their powers according to their Universe's design inside her Labyrinth but Madoka or Rein can't. I can understand that it lowers its effectiveness but not cut, nothing but Homura would be able to do anything inside it if that was the case.

Anyway, what Im saying is not talk, Im telling you Reinhard could use Reid Sword inside a domain isolated from Od Laguna, which should be impossible if he doesn't have the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint, he also had access to weakened versions of his blessings. This happened in Oboreru IF story.

The thing is she the center of the labyrinth lambu, it follows her, it's her own powers
Her ability is literally time manipulation lambu, she able to stop it and rewind time
I'm not talking about her oversee timeline, i literally see no use of that ability in a battle so why are we mentioning it so many times
There you go again. Does she rewind time or not? You just said this:

Her time rewind is definitely timeline jump btw, as seen in the tamura manga
? You have to be clearer about what she can and cannot do please.

For the hundred time, homura isn't a witch, it's like you're saying madokami is a magical girl
You just said od laguna have no motive
I'm not Fighting od laguna, I'm fighting Reinhard, and the fact she can cut the connection that protecting reinhard form od laguna
Homura also technically immoral btw
Im comparing her to the Witch concept, as those characters that trascend and play with rules of the Universe. She isn't an omnipotent entity like an actual God of Universal scale, she can play with the rules but is still bound by them, thats why I say she's a Witch and not a God.

Im sure she's immoral btw :lambirb and as for immortality I believe so too (in the same sense Satella is) but if Reinhard can reach her then he also has a chance.

What i know is at least homura there for the people she cares about, way better than reinhard that likes to disappear when he needed ...
He's a busy man, he also swore allegiance to Felt so she's his top priority since the Royal Selection started. It wasn't meant to be a prickly remark btw... ouch.

Cuz they technically true but overhyped, I'm still appreciating the support so I'm gonna like it
What matters is my posts and i did correct it
How are they true if what you explain doesn't add up with those notions?

Its like someone says "Reinhard teleports behind Homura and slashes her before she can react for his blessing of stealth" or whatever. Liking stuff like that is acknowledging that as possible and thats not true.

Its ok to appreciate the support but it feels like you are feeding that unfounded hype.

I mean, it still time rewind, what's stopping Reinhard form swinging his sword is his time stop, but if he does she can simply rebeat the samw battle and fight and other outcome
Know that the homura with walpurgisnacht was the homura way way before she got any upgrade, she disnt even have the bow at the time

The same bow that did one shot walpurgisnacht ,she got it later on

I'm well aware of homura limits, all i been stating is thing that did happen, i never involved the things I don't exactly know the limits of it aka her law rewrote
Timeline jump is not Time rewind. One sends you into a parallel world to create a divergence and move on from then. Time rewind is literally going back on events passed without leaving that world, a much stronger version that makes the user capable of editing anything to fit their wishes.

Like, if Homura rewinded then I would agree that Rein is toast, cause she could just turn back the moment he attacks and move accordingly to each one of his actions, virtually undefeatable.
But she jumps through timelines, each world is unknown to her even if she has knowledge of the previous one. In each one she would have to face a different Reinhard that would fight differently depending on what she tries.

Besides if she has to draw upon jumping through timelines I would hardly call that a win but a draw at best. Like, Reinhard beats her in how many universes until she beats him in one? Not a very big win if you ask me.

Not saying this is what happens, Im saying that the thought process is flawed.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This also brings me to the point Val mentioned. If her Labyrinth is in her own Universe then what are the bounds of the fight? Does Rein start the fight inside her Labyrinth or is he brought against his will into it?
If he destroys her Labyrinth and goes back outside does she just use it again? We dont know nothing about her limits in the battle department, its all over the place.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

I'm well aware of homura limits, all i been stating is thing that did happen, i never involved the things I don't exactly know the limits of it aka her law rewrote
This is also not true btw, you claimed she can seal the power of Reid Sword and you cannot explain why.

The one weak point i see here, is that her universe/labyrinth cant influence anything thats outside. That would mean that she still cant do anything about Od Laguna. This brings up the question, can she influence Reinhard inside her universe, while Rein is connected to Od Laguna like a proxy and Od Laguna cant be influenced by her universe since it is outside it?
This is basically what if Reinhard fights her inside Homura's own Universe, yes.
In that scenario Reinhard's blessings are weakened but not cut, Homura has the advantage until he manages to break the bubble.
If she fights him inside Od Laguna's Universe then she cannot even use her Labyrinth without Od Laguna correcting it all the time, it would be a win for Reinhard.

What this is about finding a common ground in which both characters have access to their full potential, not just one of them.
 
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Asako

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Blessings can be nerfed through isolation from Od Laguna (like Gates can be influenced through magic isolation circles, as shown in the Demihuman war) but they cannot be stripped off, as Reinhard still could use the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint inside one of these domains, he just couldn't use all his blessings freely.
I'm very well aware that blessing comes with the sword but I'm talking about his other blessing that protects him from homura mind control, the one that make him so he resist debuff and curses
That blessing just make him able to use the sword perfectly and cut through anything but homura can avoid it with time stop and manipulating his mind
The other blessing all comes form od laguna not the sword, that's why the other sword saints weren't as powerful as reinhard, they never had his ultimate blessing
It makes no sense that characters can use their powers according to their Universe's design inside her Labyrinth but Madoka or Rein can't. I can understand that it lowers its effectiveness but not cut, nothing but Homura would be able to do anything inside it if that was the case.

Anyway, what Im saying is not talk, Im telling you Reinhard could use Reid Sword inside a domain isolated from Od Laguna, which should be impossible if he doesn't have the Divine Protection of the Sword Saint, he also had access to weakened versions of his blessings. This happened in Oboreru IF story.
It's cause both of them needs other things outside but homura cut interference form the outside.
If it was their own powers with no need of help of things outside like example sayaka, they could keep it
She keep her afterall


There you go again. Does she rewind time or not?
Yesss, i thought you could get it considering Subaru is literally basically the same expect for her she can do it when she wants without dying
She can rewind time to repeat the fight how many times she wants

Im comparing her to the Witch concept, as those characters that trascend and play with rules of the Universe. She isn't an omnipotent entity like an actual God of Universal scale, she can play with the rules but is still bound by them, thats why I say she's a Witch and not a God.
Sill a god, there difference between gods between series you know
Just like madokami is the god of magical girls, she the same
A concept
Witches aren't a concept

Just to be sure tho, are we compare with re zero witches or madoka witches cuz they totally different, witches are different in madoka magica, they the despair form of magical girl
How are they true if what you explain doesn't add up with those notions?
Cuz it have limitation but there exist a part of the truth
I already said she not omnipotent, like featherine for example


Timeline jump is not Time rewind. One sends you into a parallel world to create a divergence and move on from then. Time rewind is literally going back on events passed without leaving that world, a much stronger version that makes the user capable of editing anything to fit their wishes.

Like, if Homura rewinded then I would agree that Rein is toast, cause she could just turn back the moment he attacks and move accordingly to each one of his actions, virtually undefeatable.
But she jumps through timelines, each world is unknown to her even if she has knowledge of the previous one. In each one she would have to face a different Reinhard that would fight differently depending on what she tries.
It's similar to Subaru.
In madoka magica we technically have multiple worlds and multiple homura each rewinding time but they each doing their own things finding the correct path
It still part of their powers to rewind time and see the paths considering they do repeat
They other world thats totally different but that could include an other homura
Still weird
The reason she able to predict what's gonna happen in the series when she rewind time is basically because it repeat

Once again I'm gonna bring the comparison with subaru, we do have the if series that totally different timelines with different subarus but we still have our main series subaru
It's the same thing
And basically the timelines comes form homura Tamuru, never was stated in the main series
It's a side story, tho it's interesting gag story so i recommend to read it
(One of the repeating gags is homura old now xD)


This also brings me to the point Val mentioned. If her Labyrinth is in her own Universe then what are the bounds of the fight? Does Rein start the fight inside her Labyrinth or is he brought against his will into it?
If he destroys her Labyrinth and goes back outside does she just use it again? We dont know nothing about her limits in the battle department, its all over the place
Once again as i said, she sucked in the universe and made it part of the labyrinth
If reinhard had a way to make homura not use her labyrinth and leave ot then yea he can win but he doesn't have sth like that

This is also not true btw, you claimed she can seal the power of Reid Sword and you cannot explain why
I mean homura did cut madokami powers in half, sealed the god part away
She already did it with someone divine, who can say she can't do it to the sword and make it normal



This is basically what if Reinhard fights her inside Homura's own Universe, yes.
In that scenario Reinhard's blessings are weakened but not cut, Homura has the advantage until he manages to break the bubble.
If she fights him inside Od Laguna's Universe then she cannot even use her Labyrinth without Od Laguna correcting it all the time, it would be a win for Reinhard.

What this is about finding a common ground in which both characters have access to their full potential, not just one of them.
Yea they definitely in their full potential but that also mean both are vulnerable to anything that could debuff them, in this case Reinhard
It's not her own universe, she sucked in the universe and made it part of her labyrinth, it's different
Her labyrinth literally expanded around all galaxy as seen when she gained her akuma powers and sealed madokami
The thing is lambu, Reinhard is a proxy of od laguna, you're making ot sound like homura needs to fight od laguna
She doesn't, she just have to take away what makes reinhard his proxy, their connection

We already seen in the series Reinhard being defeated many times because of one scenario or an other, even die in some
As seen in the if series, Reinhard can despair and homura is able to control despair
You're making it sound like reinhard is an almighty god, he a proxy yes but he still can be defeated, what protecting him are his blessings while the sword is his offensive
He no robot as much as he makes himself sound like one.
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Eh here this that does confirm there different timelines and different homura each timelines

You don't have to watch everything cuz damn it's long, just skip to the part coolmura in and where she talk to kyubey

This happen when madokami was rewroting first time the universe in the main series event, before rebellion or wraith arc
 

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Wow, last day of the event and still only 3 pages. :s
 

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This debate between Lambu and Asako is confusing, feels like their talking points are missing each other :neutral
 

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Lambu still didn't explain how Reinhard can beat homura, he technically only counter my counter of the fact that homura labyrinth won't isolated Reinhard form od laguna even tho it's part of her powers to isolate things form outside
Like, the thing is lambu says blessing can't be isolated only nerfed but I'm not finding anything about that, go to any source and they say isolated
Weird choice of words if that's not like that.

But technically speaking homura mind control could still work if it's only nerfed

And the fact homura can repeat the battle how much she wants to find the correct path


I think i had more to say but I'm out of it right now, just had a sport exam, i was flying minutes ago for my score
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Wow, last day of the event and still only 3 pages. :s
I think there few posts cause only me and lambu talking about our characters
With the other it was basically a war between a group
Well in vegeta vs reinhard at leasts
 

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I'm very well aware that blessing comes with the sword but I'm talking about his other blessing that protects him from homura mind control, the one that make him so he resist debuff and curses
No it doesn't :XD The Divine Protection of the Sword Saint is gifted by Od Laguna as all the other blessings, with the only difference being that the blessing is inherited through the generations.
The Divine Protection allows the bearer to maximize the user's martial prowess and strength (which is already maxed for Reinhard even without it) and allows the bearer to use the Dragon Sword Reid.

Reinhard never was stripped of that Divine Protection even in a space isolated from Od Laguna, he would not have been able to use Reid if it was the case. He also didn't lose his avoidance blessings, they were just weakened/nerfed. So yeah, poor choice of words from the wikias once again.

What Im trying to tell you is Reinhard doesn't become a plaything of Homura if he enters her Labyrinth. He gets weakened but he can still resist and can break out from it with a swing.

Yesss, i thought you could get it considering Subaru is literally basically the same expect for her she can do it when she wants without dying
She can rewind time to repeat the fight how many times she wants
It's similar to Subaru.
In madoka magica we technically have multiple worlds and multiple homura each rewinding time but they each doing their own things finding the correct path
It still part of their powers to rewind time and see the paths considering they do repeat
They other world thats totally different but that could include an other homura
Still weird
The reason she able to predict what's gonna happen in the series when she rewind time is basically because it repeat

Once again I'm gonna bring the comparison with subaru, we do have the if series that totally different timelines with different subarus but we still have our main series subaru
It's the same thing
And basically the timelines comes form homura Tamuru, never was stated in the main series
It's a side story, tho it's interesting gag story so i recommend to read it
(One of the repeating gags is homura old now xD)
Its really not the same.

Jumping through timelines makes you leave a world to enter a parallel one set in the past. Meanwhile, rewinding is well... Pressing "rewind" in the remote for a redundant analogy.
The latter enables the user to replay things infinite times while the former doesn't. If Homura's Time manipulation is timeline related then she cannot "prevent" Reinhard from swinging his sword, she just escapes to another timeline in which that action didn't happen.

I know it sounds confusing and you might not be aware of the difference but its a very important one. If Homura rewinded she would be able to turn back to a moment before tragedy happens and save Madoka, but since her time manipulation is through timeline jump she can't prevent things from happening, just escape from that fate and start over in a parallel world which isn't under her control.

This is also why I keep asking you if her jurisdiction extends to all timelines or she just oversees them.
It makes no sense that she can control time from other timelines cause fulfilling her wish would be easy if she could, but she can't. She's quite limited in the time department.

Once again as i said, she sucked in the universe and made it part of the labyrinth
If reinhard had a way to make homura not use her labyrinth and leave ot then yea he can win but he doesn't have sth like that
Well Im telling you he can escape from it, which is why I questioned how many times can she use Labyrinth or how does it work once its broken.

I know she's strong, but the lack of feats and references to measure her abilities are way too unknown.

I mean homura did cut madokami powers in half, sealed the god part away
She already did it with someone divine, who can say she can't do it to the sword and make it normal
Didn't you just say she could seal a part of Madoka's powers because they depended on the Universe outside of Labyrinth?

Reid's power isn't like that as far as Im concerned since its independent of Od Laguna's will.
The Divine Protection only allows the user to wield it, its Reid what decides if it wants to be unsheathed or not, it also literally destroys the concepts Od Laguna creates.

Sill a god, there difference between gods between series you know
Just like madokami is the god of magical girls, she the same
A concept
Witches aren't a concept

Just to be sure tho, are we compare with re zero witches or madoka witches cuz they totally different, witches are different in madoka magica, they the despair form of magical girl
Piccolo or Kaio are also a "Gods" in DragonBall and they are a joke, I dont get the argument. :sweatdrop

Im not comparing Homura to regular Witches from Re:Zero, Im comparing her to Satella as a Witch that trascended her own World.

Also Witches aren't a concept? Tell that to Bernkastel :rolleyes:

We already seen in the series Reinhard being defeated many times because of one scenario or an other, even die in some
As seen in the if series, Reinhard can despair and homura is able to control despair
You're making it sound like reinhard is an almighty god, he a proxy yes but he still can be defeated, what protecting him are his blessings while the sword is his offensive
He no robot as much as he makes himself sound like one.
Name an instance in which Reinhard was defeated.

He wasn't, just got extremely angry at Subaru after he burnt the entire Capital in Pride If, it was the only moment in which he hated someone.
Regulus only managed to kill him once because he willingly disabled all his protections and took the hit with open arms... then he revived and took Regulus by surprise.

And I've said it before. Reinhard's handicap is being a proxy of a Creator God, not the Creator God itself. This why he's subjected to the role of Hero, its what gives meaning to his existence. All his powers are designed to challenge opponents that challenge laws of his universe, opponents like Homura.

This debate between Lambu and Asako is confusing, feels like their talking points are missing each other :neutral
Did I miss something? I think Im adressing everything but could be wrong.
 
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homura destroys the rezero verse with a swipe of her hand
 

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Did I miss something? I think Im adressing everything but could be wrong.
No I mean there‘s some misunderstanding going on, for example regarding the time rewind, to the point I‘m now also confused whether she is rewinding it or changing timelines. Her og version is changing timelines I think but not sure about her „god“ version.

Then the thing of the whole internet saying it isolates Rein from his blessings where you say it only weakens them, is another confusing part.

Also you possibly missed her latest post where she raises a valid point: even if Rein's mind control resist blessing is only weakened and not stripped off, how do you define "how much it still resists"? Imo you either resist mind control or not, no inbetweens. So if an opening is there for his mind to be rewritten then it can(and is likely to) happen, no?

You did also bring up valid points of how she would get Rein into the labyrinth and that her powers are still pretty vague, but still the vagueness can go both ways in her having more powers than we know of.

Either way the way I currently see it is if she can get him into the labyrinth, ie. inside the effectiveness of her powers, she wins. If not then Rein doesn't lose, but also cannot win? Can his sword even defeat her if he doesn't enter her labyrinth? Which is for me his loss condition, tying his win and loss conditions together.

You can convince me for my vote still, just my current thoughts.
 

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Lambu still didn't explain how Reinhard can beat homura
I'll ask again. If Reinhard destroys her Labyrinth what happens? Can he destroy her? Does she spawn back like a mushroom? Does she make another Labyrinth or is her Soul Gem spent after some time?

Even if you dont know give me your opinion. These matches with featless characters are just like this.
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No I mean there‘s some misunderstanding going on, for example regarding the time rewind, to the point I‘m now also confused whether she is rewinding it or changing timelines. Her og version is changing timelines I think but not sure about her „god“ version.

Then the thing of the whole internet saying it isolates Rein from his blessings where you say it only weakens them, is another confusing part.
Her time manipulation is timeline jumping, not rewinding. If Homura rewinded then saving Madoka and escaping from her stalemate would be easy as pie, she cannot do that.

As for my point its completely proven. Reinhard still has his blessings inside a space isolated from Od Laguna but they are "numbed" so to speak.

Also you possibly missed her latest post where she raises a valid point: even if Rein's mind control resist blessing is only weakened and not stripped off, how do you define "how much it still resists"? Imo you either resist mind control or not, no inbetweens. So if an opening is there for his mind to be rewritten then it can(and is likely to) happen, no?
Its pretty much the only legit point btw.
I can only argue that memories in Re:Zero are tied to the Soul and his Soul cannot be rewritten even by Authorities that do just that. This is not tied to any Blessing but to him being the Sword Saint (Reid Astrea wasn't rewritten and he doesn't have Blessings).

So if you follow Re:Zero logic his memories cannot be manipulated, for the other series logic I dont know.

As for mind manipulation, with his blessings working he managed to resist the insanity induction of Wrath's Authority to the point he could talk freely and fight perfectly fine, tho he admitted getting annoyed by it.
I can guess that with weakened blessings he would be more vulnerable but not taken over. He can escape from the Labyrinth the moment he wishes it thanks to Reid too.

Either way the way I currently see it is if she can get him into the labyrinth, ie. inside the effectiveness of her powers, she wins. If not then Rein doesn't lose, but also cannot win? Can his sword even defeat her if he doesn't enter her labyrinth? Which is for me his loss condition, tying his win and loss conditions together.
Thats why Im asking what happens if Rein breaks the Labyrinth. I dont think that even Asako knows, its all too unknown.
 

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Jumping timelines sounds kike admitting defeat and trying again, but in that timeline you indeed lost. Not sure how madoka handles time trat, it's just this way in other series (to stay tournament relevant, dragon ball). Certainly not a rewind.

Afaik tho rein can't touch her at all tho? She just wins by attrition if that's the case.
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Why would she use the labyrinth if it only benefits Reinhardt, lol.
 

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Jumping timelines sounds kike admitting defeat and trying again, but in that timeline you indeed lost. Not sure how madoka handles time trat, it's just this way in other series (to stay tournament relevant, dragon ball). Certainly not a rewind.

Afaik tho rein can't touch her at all tho? She just wins by attrition if that's the case.
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Why would she use the labyrinth if it only benefits Reinhardt, lol.
If she spams Labyrinth everytime its destroyed then yes, its a draw. Reinhard also has infinite stamina as he can fight Satella eternally according to the author.

Im just not ok with the the key point of the match depending on a "I dont know" in favour of Homura.
 
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