Discussion Response to ZKK + Post TS arcs are much better than you think

[Windfall Island]

This thread is about 2 things :-

1) So i am not a believer of ZKK . However , few days ago i came across the following argument by someone which gave me second thoughts. Still not believing in ZKK. Morj also recently made a video against ZKK which was quite convincing to me.
But i am making this thread to see what response do you guys have about the following argument. And here it comes ->

""And i will dare this Morj or any Anti-ZKK to answer this very simple question
If you ask any One Piece Reader who is currently in any Arc, whether they are still in East Blue Saga or close to catching up
Ask them do you think Samurai Arc could happen without Zoro fighting a Samurai/Swordsman?
Not a Single Soul will answer "Yes", everyone will say "That's impossible, Zoro will definitely face a Samurai/Swordsman in Wano"

Well guess what, we are currently in +110 Chapters of Wano & Zoro have No Samurai/Swordsman Opponent !!!
Why? Why is Oda missing this Chance? Land of Swords & Samurai & Swordsmen but no Swordsman Fight for Zoro? That's rediculous
The Answer is very simple, because Zoro is gonna Kill the one who "All Samurai" Failed to Kill/Defeat

Oda didn't need to make Shogun some Legendary Samurai, didn't need to give Zoro a Samurai Fight, because the Story is about this Monster crushing all Samurai & brought Wano to it's Knees. By making Zoro Slay this Demon, he already proves himself Greater than all of these Samurai !!

Saying ZKK won't happen = Zoro won't prove himself Future Swordsman to Land of Samurai
Which is Dumbest Statement ever
They think Zoro will leave & those Samurai will remember him as the guy who Defeated BDSM Bird who fights with anything he finds .""

2) Most ppl started reading One Piece after having heard about the hype around MF arc. One Piece manga sales in Japan also skyrocketed at that time. Before this amongst the Big 3 , Naruto & Bleach were considered better than One Piece by most shonen fans coz most of them hadn't even read op coz it seemed too childish to them & had read Bleach & Naruto only & i remember the constant battles between naruto fans & op fans .

So my point is that most of these op fans read all of these pre ts arcs in one go & not on a week to week basis. But for the post ts arcs they read them on a week to week basis.

This is my personal observation & opinion that the experience of reading an arc in one go is much better than reading it on week to week basis because while reading weekly (with breaks too) we forget a lot of things that happened even 15 chapters ago & more importantly the flow of the story is lost completely.
Say a battle is going on ; then the flow of the battle will shift from protagonist's side to anatogonist's side back & forth but none of this will be visible to a weekly reader because whenever he picks it up a week later , all the tension set up by last 7 chapters is gone . (a soft reset is at play when we read a chapter after week or two)

Even if you were to reread the post ts arcs (despite of knowing all the spoilers coz we have read it already) you would in all likelihood be able to get a much better experience than when you read it weekly which would only imply that if you hadn't read them weekly initially & would have read it in one go then your experience would have been even better.

There is some personal ancetodal evidence i have seen at a personal level as well as via my friends'/cousins' reaction who started reading it this year only , but the following anectodal example is something which is publicly out there for you all & is underway (coz the following 2 guys are in FI only right now):-

There are 2 booktubers out there who generally are into fantasy fiction novels like Wheel Of Time , Malazan etc kind of stuff and they very rarely review any anime/manga. This in my opinion provides a fresh take of OP (a manga) by people who are not anime/mangatubers but more of classic fantasy fiction novel guys.
They (Merphy Napier & Daniel Greene ) recently picked up One Piece & have arrived in Post Ts right now. Daniel just finished FI & agrees that it was bad but would still place it above Thriller Bark.
In the next few months they would have caught up with us & having had the experience of reading post ts arcs in one go , it would be interesting to see their opinion on post ts arcs.

None of this is to say personal opinion ,likes & dislikes does not matter. Of course they do. All i am saying is that ->
Your hypothetical version who read post ts arcs in one go would definitely have a much better experience than the one that read it weekly.

Post TS arcs have been read weekly & Pre Ts arcs were read in one go & therefore post ts arcs are massively underrated. (for most of us). Try this out by bringing in friends who have similar likes/dislikes to you in terms of what kind of story/genre they like & get them to read this manga & see for yourself.

Just reread the post ts arcs to get a better experience of the series that we all love. :P

 

[Luffyfan30]

If you've read the latest chapter than you know its not happening. I mean at least Zoro got King still and a few moments to shine in Wano though.

 

[Fox666]

Thriller Bark arc was way better than Fish-man Island.

The second half with Oars and Moriah is great. And the finale with Kuma is among the best moments in the series.

And even then, I can remember minor characters like Perona or Absalom. Fans seems to have collectively forgotten the events or characters from Fish-man Island.

 

[Windfall Island]

If you've read the latest chapter than you know its not happening. I mean at least Zoro got King still and a few moments to shine in Wano though.

Yeah i am not a zkk believer myself.
Just wanted to give it an honest chance & this was the best argument i could find...so just wanted to know how you guys respond to this "seemingly fairly rational" argument.

Whats more is that zkk stans have become so ridiculous that because of luffy getting so cool feats vs kaido this chapter ,they are downvoting giving 1* to this chapter ...the desperation lol

It was hard to take zkk srsly mostly coz the ppl who propogate it are extreme zoro fans...i am a zoro fan myself...but i dont argue why zoro is equal to luffy why zoro will become #2 strongest ever in series eos etc ridiculous things.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2021 ---

Thriller Bark arc was way better than Fish-man Island.

The second half with Oars and Moriah is great. And the finale with Kuma is among the best moments in the series.

And even then, I can remember minor characters like Perona or Absalom. Fans seems to have collectively forgotten the events or characters from Fish-man Island.

I mean my point is not just about FI vs TB.

Its that for most fans , post ts was week to week grind while pre ts was reading an arc in one go...the latter i would argue is a default much better experience. Therefore post ts arcs are underrated.
btw Merphy posted a 1 hr long review of FI right after i created this thread.

 

[Luffyfan30]

Yah Zkkk fans are in denial at this point. Plus what you said.

 

[kkck]

The fuck is zkk?

 

[Luffyfan30]

The fuck is zkk?

None sense.

 

[weixiaobao]

They (Merphy Napier & Daniel Greene ) recently picked up One Piece & have arrived in Post Ts right now. Daniel just finished FI & agrees that it was bad but would still place it above Thriller Bark.

I am kinda done with Daniel Greene. Because his commentary is meh. Like a lot of book reviews too. Merphy, and other One Piece reviewers (hardcore and non hardcore) but a tad more efforts in than he is. And it make sense, because he has another job. He is a writer. But his reviews really really lacking.

Looking at the comment section, people are saying he watch the anime. And I don't even know if he watch the One Pace version of the super long and slow paced original one.

Thriller Bark is the first arc that I basically stalled reading weekly. At least with One Piece there is a bit more in a chapter to talk about. But one chapter is such a small part of a the entire story, that it leave you very dissatisfy. I stalled like right from the beginning when the Nami group got separated. I can't have sense of time and place when reading weekly. Watching One Pace edit in one go, the arc is super funny. Reading is even better. Because you control the pace in which you read. You can slow down, you can speed up, anyway you want. Sometimes a panel drew you in so much, you paused for a bit. With watching even with the fan edit, your pacing is control by someone else.

zkk= zoro killing kaido.

 

[McNuss]

1) So i am not a believer of ZKK . However , few days ago i came across the following argument by someone which gave me second thoughts. Still not believing in ZKK. Morj also recently made a video against ZKK which was quite convincing to me.
But i am making this thread to see what response do you guys have about the following argument. And here it comes ->

Took me awhile to get what ZKK means...

You shouldn't watch YouTubers. Then you wouldn't get ideas as silly as ZORO KILLING KAIDO.

The YouTubers are all far, far, far away from finding anything out. It's literally a waste of time that prevents you from finding out anything by yourself as you become biased around click bait bullcrap.

 

[weixiaobao]

The YouTubers are all far, far, far away from finding anything out. It's literally a waste of time that prevents you from finding out anything by yourself as you become biased around click bait bullcrap.

There are a hierarchy of them.

--Arc/Saga Reviewers and why they personally like/dislike the elements of it with examples (Meaphandjunk, Merphy, early Mr Morj, or Grandline review Dressrosa Disaster)
--Interesting well thought out theories (that may or may not be canon)
--Short to the point weekly chapter review that people put some effort, and provide some additional cultural contexts. Usually by that I meant they just lift off from Ohara Library, though not anymore since the guy is sick. But some people actually put in leg work like Sawyer7mage.
--People that read off the One Piece wikia/Summary videos about a character/event (the shorter, well edit, concise video, the better)
--The generic weekly chapter review, the longer they are passing the 30 minutes mark, the terrible they are.
--Weird Clickbait theories
--People staring at a scene "reacting," while smirk about one every 20 minutes in an unedited 30 minutes long video watching one episode
--Obnoxiously "overreacting" to a scene

I am sure for straight male audience, any slightly attract female "reacting" to One Piece would get a lot of views. Urgghhh. Some of them put some effort in saying something intelligent. But the vast majority (near 100% of the time) are some of the laziest content I have ever see. And people that watch these just help promote more crops of these folks. Hopefully maybe they got so saturated that none of them making money off Oda. Then they got the nerve by complain about copyright strike when some of them put the entire episode in there without like any editing.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The fuck is zkk?

zkk=zoro kills kaido

A belief widely spread in cesspool forums by Zoro fanboys. Makes no sense, lol.

 

[Windfall Island]

I am kinda done with Daniel Greene. Because his commentary is meh. Like a lot of book reviews too. Merphy, and other One Piece reviewers (hardcore and non hardcore) but a tad more efforts in than he is. And it make sense, because he has another job. He is a writer. But his reviews really really lacking.

Looking at the comment section, people are saying he watch the anime. And I don't even know if he watch the One Pace version of the super long and slow paced original one.

Thriller Bark is the first arc that I basically stalled reading weekly. At least with One Piece there is a bit more in a chapter to talk about. But one chapter is such a small part of a the entire story, that it leave you very dissatisfy. I stalled like right from the beginning when the Nami group got separated. I can't have sense of time and place when reading weekly. Watching One Pace edit in one go, the arc is super funny. Reading is even better. Because you control the pace in which you read. You can slow down, you can speed up, anyway you want. Sometimes a panel drew you in so much, you paused for a bit. With watching even with the fan edit, your pacing is control by someone else.

zkk= zoro killing kaido.

Yeah Merphy surely is putting in the most effort when it comes to reviewing the arcs . Just a while after i created this thread , she posted a 1 hr long review of FI arc which was just part 2...overall 1hr 40 mins of reviewing just a single arc. btw FI for her is top 5 arc.

About the Daniel part , i do agree with most of what you said. I will still be looking forward to his reviews simply because he is not a manga anime guy & when he is reviewing OP , he surely is comparing OP's story,themes,characters etc with not other mangas , but with legends like Lord of the rings,Wheel of time, Pratchett etc.
Gotta see what they think of Yonko alliance saga.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 25, 2021 ---

Took me awhile to get what ZKK means...

You shouldn't watch YouTubers. Then you wouldn't get ideas as silly as ZORO KILLING KAIDO.

The YouTubers are all far, far, far away from finding anything out. It's literally a waste of time that prevents you from finding out anything by yourself as you become biased around click bait bullcrap.

I have put most op youtubers under dont recommend channel so i am cleaning away all of that like you said lol.

All op youtubers aren't same tbh.

Most of them put too many videos just to get views , dont really bring up anything new , repackage same things that we knew & put on a misleading title .

Some of them have made great theme & arc analysis videos like Morj. Luffy vs BB is all obvious to us but the detailing of all the layers of why they are opposite yet same thing became crystal clear to me only after i watched one such video by Morj.

Some of them have made 1-2 useful video like foreshadowing compilation which would go on to show even the future generation readers of OP just how much of a foreshadowing genius Oda was.

A few op youtubers i watch only for their reaction.

Lastly there is Marco Op theorist who rarely makes Op videos (once in a couple of months...so he is clearly not doing all of this for money/views) but whenever he does , they stand out by a lot. They are theory videos. And he has got a very successful track record in terms of his theories coming true.

I came to know of zkk not from op youtubers but from the worst possible op community which resides in "the troll capital of one piece" as @Hannibal Psyche would put it lol. Its another forum where a 5 min walk would lead to a loss of many brain cells lol.

 

[weixiaobao]

he surely is comparing OP's story,themes,characters etc with not other mangas , but with legends like Lord of the rings,Wheel of time, Pratchett etc.

So here is the flaw in that and you absolutely need to watch out for these. A book/novel/written words are an art form by itself. They will have their own techniques in term of describe a place, a look of a person, an action sequence. One Piece also done that by illustration. That should not be a point off for One Piece. One Piece also equally evoke an emotion by their drawing just as much as written words. And it also require just as much effort of observing the real world and understand the mechanic of the real word to do so.

But here is the biggest point that you need to watch out for. Oda's format is constrained by the weekly format. This is where people like Daniel/Merphy almost failed. Merphy pointed this out that reading 1 or 2 chapter or even 1 volume of One Piece is not enough to judge the quality of One Piece. Let's said Fishman Island saga is a novel. 1 volume would be around 20% of a book. Oda is writing to keep people hook on a weekly basis and on a volume basis. Books don't necessary have these kind of constraint. They can hook you or not hook you at any point they want. This is why there are what people consider as "stupid cliffhanger" weekly. Where a character seemingly not okay where readers all know they are actually okay. But that is how weekly format work.

Weekly format also meant you don't have a liberty like George RR Martin to take 10+ years to write a novel. In which he could after 3 years of writing, decide to go back and erase a chapter, rework a chapter, etc. And then he able to revise, revise, revise in anyway he want. GRRM also can take varying amount of time to write a book depend on how difficult that part of the story is. Guess what, One Piece is consistently chunk out 3 chapters per month in the last decade. And when a chapter is out, it is canon. You cannot go back and change it at your whim. So people can casually and said plot hole, blah blah. But Oda doesn't have the luxury to see his complete work, and then work out the chinks before publishing. Then there is foreshadowing. GRRM, could write an entire story. And then work backward and add in shadowing. Oda cannot do that. He have to think of it on the fly. Meaning he basically writing in 3 level at the same time. He must consider the entire story, but he also writing in a weekly format, and also a volume format. Daniel and Merphy had been respectful enough of One Piece. But if they had negative things to say about Dressrosa because the story getting way too complicate with too many moving parts. GRRM ran into the same problem. And he took 5 to 6x more amount time to write his current books than some of his earlier book. Note, Oda's writing/drawing pace had been the same regardless of how difficult the story became.

 

[Windfall Island]

So here is the flaw in that and you absolutely need to watch out for these. A book/novel/written words are an art form by itself. They will have their own techniques in term of describe a place, a look of a person, an action sequence. One Piece also done that by illustration. That should not be a point off for One Piece. One Piece also equally evoke an emotion by their drawing just as much as written words. And it also require just as much effort of observing the real world and understand the mechanic of the real word to do so.

But here is the biggest point that you need to watch out for. Oda's format is constrained by the weekly format. This is where people like Daniel/Merphy almost failed. Merphy pointed this out that reading 1 or 2 chapter or even 1 volume of One Piece is not enough to judge the quality of One Piece. Let's said Fishman Island saga is a novel. 1 volume would be around 20% of a book. Oda is writing to keep people hook on a weekly basis and on a volume basis. Books don't necessary have these kind of constraint. They can hook you or not hook you at any point they want. This is why there are what people consider as "stupid cliffhanger" weekly. Where a character seemingly not okay where readers all know they are actually okay. But that is how weekly format work.

Weekly format also meant you don't have a liberty like George RR Martin to take 10+ years to write a novel. In which he could after 3 years of writing, decide to go back and erase a chapter, rework a chapter, etc. And then he able to revise, revise, revise in anyway he want. GRRM also can take varying amount of time to write a book depend on how difficult that part of the story is. Guess what, One Piece is consistently chunk out 3 chapters per month in the last decade. And when a chapter is out, it is canon. You cannot go back and change it at your whim. So people can casually and said plot hole, blah blah. But Oda doesn't have the luxury to see his complete work, and then work out the chinks before publishing. Then there is foreshadowing. GRRM, could write an entire story. And then work backward and add in shadowing. Oda cannot do that. He have to think of it on the fly. Meaning he basically writing in 3 level at the same time. He must consider the entire story, but he also writing in a weekly format, and also a volume format. Daniel and Merphy had been respectful enough of One Piece. But if they had negative things to say about Dressrosa because the story getting way too complicate with too many moving parts. GRRM ran into the same problem. And he took 5 to 6x more amount time to write his current books than some of his earlier book. Note, Oda's writing/drawing pace had been the same regardless of how difficult the story became.

That's a great point. Goes on to show the brilliance of oda even more so than what i previously thought.

I would add a small caveat to it though. Once a series establishes itself , then following that the author can surely if he chooses to , take an year or an year & half break & can work extensively on the future plot & no magazine will deny it to renter (even though some fans may have left ... who might return again later) because of its past success & an established fanbase.
HxH (although it took hiatus for different reasons) , whenever it comes back , it will sell in millions again & no magazine will deny it.

So arguably after ennies lobby , i am sure if Oda wanted to , he could have easily taken an year long break to further work on improving the story but despite of that he was perhaps very confident enough that he chose not to stop. So that weekly constraint which manga artists face, i am sure oda didnt have that on him from before Thriller bark onwards. And maybe from that point onwards a near direct comparison can be made between Oda & the likes of George RR Martin etc.

 

[kkck]

Ah. Yeah, at this point zoro killing kaido is practically impossible. He already got a second wind because the mink turned out to have some miraculous medicine which heal people for a short amount of plot required time. Zoro is pretty much out after he is done with king. Zoro already cut kaido, once he defeats king there will be nothing else for him to do.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

The fuck is zkk?

Leaked spoiler for Wano ending

 

[john ellis]

Ah. Yeah, at this point zoro killing kaido is practically impossible. He already got a second wind because the mink turned out to have some miraculous medicine which heal people for a short amount of plot required time. Zoro is pretty much out after he is done with king. Zoro already cut kaido, once he defeats king there will be nothing else for him to do.

i actually disagree i think ZKK makes sense, atleast the most sense of any villians being killed. Which is rare, like the biggest issue with this theory is oda killing someone off. But we've seen luffy get up time and time again this arc. Why shouldn't kaido be capable of the same thing? do you really think kaido the strongest creature will get knocked out for long? If there was going to be a villian who needs to die to finally get defeated it would be kaido.

Now i don't think it's ass pull for zoro to get a haki bloom fighting king. He's already been proven to be able to damage kaido, and a weakened kaido being killed by a stronger zoro, doesn't seem without question. Now shouldn't zoro also be tired after the king fight? well ok this is slight ass pull but yonko probably need to get more tired to get defeated compared to a yonko commander, and zoro has very high AP for yonko commanders. It's likely he can defeat one in a powerful blow that connects without expending too much power. Also zoro is kinda "second coming of ryuma" vibes so it fits his plot well. Like yes this is a slightly plot driven theory. It requires oda to kill someone but honestly it's out landish

 

[McNuss]

i actually disagree i think ZKK makes sense, atleast the most sense of any villians being killed. Which is rare, like the biggest issue with this theory is oda killing someone off. But we've seen luffy get up time and time again this arc. Why shouldn't kaido be capable of the same thing? do you really think kaido the strongest creature will get knocked out for long? If there was going to be a villian who needs to die to finally get defeated it would be kaido.

Now i don't think it's ass pull for zoro to get a haki bloom fighting king. He's already been proven to be able to damage kaido, and a weakened kaido being killed by a stronger zoro, doesn't seem without question. Now shouldn't zoro also be tired after the king fight? well ok this is slight ass pull but yonko probably need to get more tired to get defeated compared to a yonko commander, and zoro has very high AP for yonko commanders. It's likely he can defeat one in a powerful blow that connects without expending too much power. Also zoro is kinda "second coming of ryuma" vibes so it fits his plot well. Like yes this is a slightly plot driven theory. It requires oda to kill someone but honestly it's out landish

Zoro is a swordsman, not a murderer. There is no honor in killing someone that is already on the ground. It's the most un-Zoro thing that could happen.

The character I see capable of doing this is Hiyori. With the Ame no Habakiri, of course. She's entirely missing from this climax so far, which can't remain like that till the end of the arc.

Or CP0. Which would also fit as it would be quite the miserable death, no honor, no revenge involved, just cold blooded calculation.

 

[john ellis]

Zoro is a swordsman, not a murderer. There is no honor in killing someone that is already on the ground. It's the most un-Zoro thing that could happen.

The character I see capable of doing this is Hiyori. With the Ame no Habakiri, of course. She's entirely missing from this climax so far, which can't remain like that till the end of the arc.

Or CP0. Which would also fit as it would be quite the miserable death, no honor, no revenge involved, just cold blooded calculation.

So here’s how I think it goes, Kaido gets up after getting defeated and in one final last ditch effort, Turns into his dragon form and goes to wipe out the flower capital in a final Boro breath, Zoro jumps out, and beheads Kaido in front of the flower captial.