[Round 2 - Team 3 vs Team 5 Singles 1] Sanada vs Irie

Who will win?

  • Sanada Gen'ichirou

    Votes: 8 57.1%
  • Irie Kanata

    Votes: 6 42.9%

  • Total voters
    14
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Phantron

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we dont know oni and irie ever fought, its like saying number 1 and number 2 probably fought because they are close ranking. oni the other number 2 understands irie play style, but it dont mean they battled.
Well that ranking seems to be a combination of win/loss record + what the coaches thought, but at any rate it means whoever came up with that ranking thought Oni was better than Irie, so you can't say "If Oni can do this then so can Irie", because Oni is ranked ahead of Irie. If it was the other way around, that'd be a valid argument.
 

FrostyMouse

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Don't forget that Irie KOed Akiba and his speed shot is the fastest shot, other than TnK serves, we've seen in all of PoT/SPoT.
 

Fayte

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Someone should call Fayte, this match is perfect for him.
I've been summoned. Time to correct some gross error.

POT RULE# 43 - LOW POWER DOES NOT MEAN ONE CANNOT RETURN POWER SHOTS. POWER AND TECHNIQUE CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT.

Now that we've cleared that up, Irie's high technique grants him the ability to return shots of equal power in comparison to his technique. On paper, Irie should be able to return Rai, if he understands the mechanics of the shot like Yukimura does. I'm sure Irie would be able to figure it out with his high mentality.

POT RULE #17 - SANADA'S IN (SHADOW) IS THE ABSENCE OF A DISTINCT EMOTIONAL PATTERN. THIS FLUCTUATING ELUSIVENESS MEANS SANADA IS NOT READABLE BY ANY MEANS.

If a freaking supernatural Aura dedicated to predicting opponents can't even read Sanada, how the hell is Irie going to read Sanada simply because he is observant? Let's be real.

I personally think this would be a great match. I do think Irie would have to be serious from the start with Sanada. Irie may have been able to buy time with Atobe, but Sanada doesn't waste any time. He gets the job done and moves on. I do think serious Irie will return all of Sanada's shots very similar to Yukimura, until Sanada breaks out Black Aura and wins.
 

Phantron

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I don't see how In was in any way hiding Sanada's emotions in the Tezuka versus Sanada match. It was rather obvious to see what his emotion was at that game. In can hide what he plans to do, but Sanada sure wasn't hiding his emotion toward the match.

Technique can be used to substitute for Power but I've never seen it used to substitute for Stamina. Perhaps Mental can be used to be substitue for Stamina, though. Otherwise someone with a stamina 2 physically cannot last through a triple digit tiebreaker (Krauser had a stamina of 2 and didn't even last to a 0-6 ending).
 

ashore

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Don't forget that Irie KOed Akiba and his speed shot is the fastest shot, other than TnK serves, we've seen in all of PoT/SPoT.
can you refresh my memory? was there a speed counter recording serve speed?
how can u compare speeds? does it say its faster then tnK? or is it one manga char's opinion?
 

Ninomiya

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Technique can be used to substitute for Power but I've never seen it used to substitute for Stamina. Perhaps Mental can be used to be substitue for Stamina, though. Otherwise someone with a stamina 2 physically cannot last through a triple digit tiebreaker (Krauser had a stamina of 2 and didn't even last to a 0-6 ending).
Irie VS Atobe means it must have subbed for Stamina.
Irie was exhausted but he outlasted Atobe easily.
 

Kaoz

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what chapter indicates irie can keep up with oni? did they battle?
No, there is a PP entry that has Oni say he doesn't like playing against Irie's style though, and if he could simply overpower Irie there would be no reason for that.

Oni Juujirou: Despite his appearance, he plays the kind of tennis I hate.
http://fanbook.livejournal.com/55792.html

Not the strongest evidence, but still.

can you refresh my memory? was there a speed counter recording serve speed?
how can u compare speeds? does it say its faster then tnK? or is it one manga char's opinion?
He's talking about this shot.

Irie VS Atobe means it must have subbed for Stamina.
Irie was exhausted but he outlasted Atobe easily.
I disagree with this. If you only look at the numbers, it is indeed 2 Stamina vs 5 Stamina, but that completely ignores the circumstances.

Atobe had to move around a lot more than Irie during the tiebreaker (and before then Irie probably didn't lose much stamina because he didn't have to use his full strength) and had the injury on top of that. Irie just kinda stood there and hit the ball to the right spots.

In other words, while Atobe's stamina is much higher than Irie's, he also lost it much faster.
 

LetalHawk

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Sanada is levels above Atobe, I do think Irie will break all of Sanada's techniques and has to go all out from the start, then he activates BA in mid match, something like this.

Sanada starts winning, 2-0, Irie goes troll mode but doesn't work. Sanada wins another game 3-0, he is also playin at his fullest. Irie goes all out, score reverses to 4-3, Sanada then decides to use BA. Irie gets roflstomped, Sanada wins 6-4 or 7-5 if Irie gets back to 5-3, Sanada uses BA and wins 7-5.
 

Ninomiya

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I disagree with this. If you only look at the numbers, it is indeed 2 Stamina vs 5 Stamina, but that completely ignores the circumstances.

Atobe had to move around a lot more than Irie during the tiebreaker (and before then Irie probably didn't lose much stamina because he didn't have to use his full strength) and had the injury on top of that. Irie just kinda stood there and hit the ball to the right spots.
So how does this disagree with the statement other stats subbed in for Stamina?
Irie also had to move around a lot in the tie-break but he lasted a triple digit tie-break with Atobe who likes to wear opponents out.

Irie went to a 3 digit tie-break. I think it could have gone beyond two sets long. No way can you say something didnt contribute for his low stamina.
He outlasted Atobe too. Regardless of circumstances, Irie was fine when Tanegashima spoke to him.

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

He's talking about this shot.
Still doesn't prove how fast it is. Doesn't Fuu give the same leaves effect?
We've seen players stunned by the speed of a shot loads of times.

---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

and I'd assume that guy is at least G11-20 tier.
G is only for the Top 10 members. Since it was Genius 10.
Mouri, Ochi, Tohno, Kimijima, Ohmagari, Oni, Ryoga, Duke, Tanegashima and Byoudouin.
The rest are just Old 11-20 lol.

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 AM ----------

we dont know oni and irie ever fought, its like saying number 1 and number 2 probably fought because they are close ranking. oni the other number 2 understands irie play style, but it dont mean they battled.
Exactly.
That 2nd Stringer list is little to go by.
Its likely that nobody on that Top 20 played one another.

So how can they decide Yamato is 10th, Nakagauchi is 8th, Irie is 3rd, Oni is 2nd and Tokugawa is 1st if none of them have gone head to head.
Only by match scores.
Which doesn't prove Tokugawa > Irie or Oni or vice-versa between the three of them.
 

Kaoz

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So how does this disagree with the statement other stats subbed in for Stamina?
I gave an explanation why, despite the discrepancy, the situation makes sense and no other stats are necessary, did I not?

Irie also had to move around a lot in the tie-break but he lasted a triple digit tie-break with Atobe who likes to wear opponents out.
Where are you getting this from? Most of the time he just stood somewhere and placed the ball so that Atobe just barely got to it. Furthermore Irie has an insane speed stat, so he doesn't have to go all out to catch up to shots. Compare it with Kikumaru's and Mukahi's acrobatics for example; Kikumaru can last longer by not going all out, same thing should apply to Irie.

Irie went to a 3 digit tie-break. I think it could have gone beyond two sets long. No way can you say something didnt contribute for his low stamina.
He outlasted Atobe too. Regardless of circumstances, Irie was fine when Tanegashima spoke to him.
Yes, and that something was that Atobe had trouble moving around and Irie could easily dominate him without having to go near his limits for a long time. There's nothing that indicates it has anything to do with high mental or whatnot.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

Still doesn't prove how fast it is. Doesn't Fuu give the same leaves effect?
We've seen players stunned by the speed of a shot loads of times.
It does not. The key point here is that you can't even see the ball anymore, but it might just be a matter of perspective.
 

Ninomiya

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I gave an explanation why, despite the discrepancy, the situation makes sense and no other stats are necessary, did I not?
It doesn't suggest Irie didn't use stamina. He was running around for Atobe til 5-0.
We saw him running. Something is up. Something must have compensated for this apparent '2' in Stamina.
We saw Krauser with similar stamina who ran for just 3 games in a row.


Where are you getting this from? Most of the time he just stood somewhere and placed the ball so that Atobe just barely got to it. Furthermore Irie has an insane speed stat, so he doesn't have to go all out to catch up to shots. Compare it with Kikumaru's and Mukahi's acrobatics for example; Kikumaru can last longer by not going all out, same thing should apply to Irie.

Yes, and that something was that Atobe had trouble moving around and Irie could easily dominate him without having to go near his limits for a long time. There's nothing that indicates it has anything to do with high mental or whatnot.
You are going to tell me he wasn't moving around a lot? http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/46/2

http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/43/7
He was moving around.
 
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Kaoz

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It doesn't suggest Irie didn't use stamina. He was running around for Atobe til 5-0.
We saw him running. Something is up. Something must have compensated for this apparent '2' in Stamina.
We saw Krauser with similar stamina who ran for just 3 games in a row.
And Krauser's speed is 3 whereas Irie's is 6. Irie would have had no trouble with catching up to any of the shots for those 5 games if he had wanted to. This suggests that he slowed down on purpose, and you simply don't use up as much stamina when not performing at your best.

Where are you getting this from? Most of the time he just stood somewhere and placed the ball so that Atobe just barely got to it. Furthermore Irie has an insane speed stat, so he doesn't have to go all out to catch up to shots. Compare it with Kikumaru's and Mukahi's acrobatics for example; Kikumaru can last longer by not going all out, same thing should apply to Irie.
Look at the first page you linked. Irie hits smash after smash from the same position while Atobe runs left and right just to barely catch up to them. On the second one he makes a step to the left, surely this takes greats amounts of energy. So yeah, he was moving. Did he move in a way that takes up lots of energy? No.

How about these to illustrate my point:

http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/3
http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/5

Irie just casually hits shots at that point and makes Atobe run. Not sure whether you wanted me to elaborate on the comparison?
 

Ninomiya

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And Krauser's speed is 3 whereas Irie's is 6. Irie would have had no trouble with catching up to any of the shots for those 5 games if he had wanted to. This suggests that he slowed down on purpose, and you simply don't use up as much stamina when not performing at your best.
Look at the first page you linked. Irie hits smash after smash from the same position while Atobe runs left and right just to barely catch up to them. On the second one he makes a step to the left, surely this takes greats amounts of energy. So yeah, he was moving. Did he move in a way that takes up lots of energy? No.
He did things like this for a 3 digit tie-break. And you think that doesn't require any stamina?
As if smashing the way he was wouldn't eventually take up stamina in a 187-188probably tie-break.
It just isnt easy no matter which way you view that.

In my 2nd link he is running. You simply cannot prove he wasin the same position for the whole tie-break with this here.

How about these to illustrate my point:

http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/3
http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/5

Irie just casually hits shots at that point and makes Atobe run. Not sure whether you wanted me to elaborate on the comparison?
He is at the net here. http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/3

Baseline at the next page. http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/45/4
You cannot prove he didn't run around. 6-6 187-187 long? That is too long for a player who has very weak stamina.
Something is clearly up there.
 

ashore

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@kaoZ thanks for showing me PP and irie super shot in manga chapt. but towards phantom, that just shows a fast shot. no where does it suggest it was 2nd fastest in all the world, or 2nd to TnK.

that's a speed shot no doubt. that was basically irie revealing he was acting and did a super shot that caught akiba off guard.

it was drawn for dramatic effect by kononmi sensei
I can show pot drawings of sanada's Swift like the wind, where konomi draws the picutre where sanada hits it to echizen and echizen uses the same technique and sanada is just moving not know wtf just happened at the moment.

we just know its fast, lets not compare it to TnK, being the fastest shot on record, unless other managa chars with good skills can comment on them.
this match would be a close game for sure.
 

Hardy

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If the POT wikia is correct and Kikumaru only has a 3,5 in speed... that means that Irie is damn fast lol
 

Phantron

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Either mental can cover for stamina (there are numerous cases where if people have enough willpower they can overcome fatigue) or that Irie's technique is so high that he's expanding nearly no energy while playing tennis. Until there's a scene that shows Irie actually getting tired, he's currently one of the highest stamina character in NPOT despite an outright contradiction to his listed stats.

Generally speaking it'd appear once you break through whatever the limit someone's technique allow them to use comfortably can return they start losing energy. For example in Tezuka versus Sanada, you can see he starts sweating significantly after he starts using Phantom because the Phantom clearly beyond his comfortable limit. That said since Irie has a mental of 7, he can easily pull the same 'willpower above all' thing that Tezuka always do (who only has a mental of 5).
 

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I don't understand why people are so perplexed by Irie's stamina. The answer is simple to me. Atobe has high stamina within the context of a ONE SET MATCH because he is a middle-schooler. Irie has low stamina within the context of a THREE SET MATCH because he is a high-schooler. That makes their stamina around the same.
 

Kaoz

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As if smashing the way he was wouldn't eventually take up stamina in a 187-188probably tie-break.
It just isnt easy no matter which way you view that.
Key word being eventually. They both seem pretty exhausted at 187-187, but when Atobe starts with 5 stamina and loses x per point and Irie starts with 2 but only loses x/5 or so, there's nothing strange about it.

In my 2nd link he is running. You simply cannot prove he wasin the same position for the whole tie-break with this here.
And you can't prove that he was moving in a way that required a lot of energy. Or that mental has any influence on it.

6-6 187-187 long? That is too long for a player who has very weak stamina.
Something is clearly up there.
I'm sorry but if you fail to grasp that playing far below the level you're capable of requires much less stamina than normal, I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't understand why people are so perplexed by Irie's stamina. The answer is simple to me. Atobe has high stamina within the context of a ONE SET MATCH because he is a middle-schooler. Irie has low stamina within the context of a THREE SET MATCH because he is a high-schooler. That makes their stamina around the same.
I would question this. It would kinda make the whole comparison completely worthless if you apply different standards to the charts. Why show them to us in the first place?
 

Ninomiya

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I'm sorry but if you fail to grasp that playing far below the level you're capable of requires much less stamina than normal, I don't know what else to tell you.
It is simply illogical. Secondly, they went would have been more than two set's long. After the 5-0. So since you cannot prove that Irie stayed in the same place the whole time, and you cannot prove how often he was playing ''far below the level they're capable of''.

Key word being eventually. They both seem pretty exhausted at 187-187, but when Atobe starts with 5 stamina and loses x per point and Irie starts with 2 but only loses x/5 or so, there's nothing strange about it.
You don't know how long this happened.
After 5-0, we're talking 7 more games and 187 points. Of those, you have no idea how long Irie was running around for, or in the same position for.

We did see him run around at times, and the game went to 187 all. So there just had to have been stamina drainage.
Just the fact there was a 100-point+ tiebreak and we have witnessed both characters sprinting around, their must be stamina loss on both sides.

---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------

If the POT wikia is correct and Kikumaru only has a 3,5 in speed... that means that Irie is damn fast lol
That was in New Prince of Tennis.
It says Anime OVA however.
I've removed it, but they are the stats Kikumaru was given by the NPoT anime. They are doing a bad job of SPoT this company.
Kikumaru also has a 2 in Stamina, meaning Shishido/Ootori and Oishi must be 1.5 max, according to NPoT Anime.

Ignore the anime's stats. Manga/Databooks and Fanbooks are the only things to confidently go by.
 

Fayte

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I would question this. It would kinda make the whole comparison completely worthless if you apply different standards to the charts. Why show them to us in the first place?
If you go to college, you bring your high school transcripts. However, your high school GPA will have a different context than your older friend's college GPA. How do we know the middle schooler's stat charts were not from middle school, being carried over into a high school camp?
 
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