[Round 2 - Team 4 vs Team 6 Singles 1] Echizen Ryoma vs Oni Juujirou

[Kaoz]

Singles 1	Echizen Ryoma	Oni Juujirou
Title	Super Rookie of the East	Gatekeeper of Hell
School	Seishun Gakuen 1st Year	High School 3rd Year
Height	151 cm	187 cm
Weight	50 kg	83 kg
Dominant Hand	Left	Right
Playstyle	All Rounder	Aggressive Baseliner
Techniques	Twist Serve Drive A Drive B COOL Drive Drive D Muga no Kyouchi	Black Jack Knife

Serve order: Oni -> Echizen


This round ends on Tuesday, October 9th 8 PM GMT.

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!​

 

[Phantron]

Konomi actually changed the Kaji versus Oni game in volume 8 (I think? could be 7) from just 'sort of close' to 'total blowout' and Kaji saying Oni went to a level above Black Jack Knife.

If you assume Black Jack Knife is equilvaent to 10-ball that means Oni has another level above that so I'll give the edge to Oni for now. Ryoma wins if not taking the revised information in mind, as Oni has yet to shown any power above the Black Jack Knife level in the serials.

 

[-Ken-]

I'm going with Ryoma. I'm pretty almost 100% sure Ryoma is going to challenged someone higher than 5th rank, and he will win. So I don't see Oni winning this.

 

[Hardy]

How is Ryoma going to return BJK? "Ten'imuhou no Kiwami cannot be used by any character"

Oni destroys Ryoma's wrists and wins this by default.

 

[TheShiraishi]

Wait, all doors of Muga are not allowed? I thought it was just Ten'imuhou no Kiwami. A controlled Hyaku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami is very deadly, as we saw VS Yukimura (before Echizen got Yipped)

I guess this also opens up the discussion of the limits of Hyaku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami. Can you easily return such a high power technique like BJK (Tomahawk is anime only but is probably the next level of BJK) or 108th Hadouyukuu? Chitose nullified the effects by hitting weak shots, so could you nullify the effects by hitting super powerful ones?

Any explanation or answer is appreciated.

 

[Ninomiya]

If you assume Black Jack Knife is equilvaent to 10-ball that means Oni has another level above that so I'll give the edge to Oni for now.

Impossible. This can't be possible.
Kintaro effortlessly returned this, and blew away Oni's gimmick racket in one return.
Back then, Kintaro couldn't even hit 5 at a time. BJK isn't something to overrate. It's also Momoshiro's technique now lol.

---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------

Wait, all doors of Muga are not allowed? I thought it was just Ten'imuhou no Kiwami. A controlled Hyaku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami is very deadly, as we saw VS Yukimura (before Echizen got Yipped)

I guess this also opens up the discussion of the limits of Hyaku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami. Can you easily return such a high power technique like BJK (Tomahawk is anime only but is probably the next level of BJK) or 108th Hadouyukuu? Chitose nullified the effects by hitting weak shots, so could you nullify the effects by hitting super powerful ones?

Any explanation or answer is appreciated.

Hmm... I reckon Muga is allowed excluding TnK. Not sure.

 

[Phantron]

Impossible. This can't be possible.
Kintaro effortlessly returned this, and blew away Oni's gimmick racket in one return.
Back then, Kintaro couldn't even hit 5 at a time. BJK isn't something to overrate. It's also Momoshiro's technique now lol.

Um Kintaro's uber long name move is described as 'more powerful than Hado 108' so the fact that he can return Black Jack Knife doesn't really say much because its base power is greater than Hado 108. Black Jack Knife is just a normal move Oni can use over and over again, so if you need to use an uber move to return it then Oni still has the advantage in the long run.

Black Jack Knife is likely just a normal move for a 10 baller. Like I said that's why in the volumes Konomi revised Oni's power by having Kaji saying Oni has a level above BJK (and I guess it also implies he can return BJK, so you don't wonder what was he doing in the team). Oni with whatever his BJK+ move has to be favored over Ryoma who only shows standard 10-ball level. But using only the serial in mind, BJK looks too simple of a move for a 10-baller so Ryoma has the edge. That's probably why Oni got upgraded between the serials and the volumes.

 

[Ninomiya]

Momoshiro used it. Are you saying he is a 10baller?
Oni's ten ball move is likely what he used to dispatch Kaji.

So like I said. BJK can't be a move specifically for a 10baller.

 

[Phantron]

Momoshiro used it. Are you saying he is a 10baller?
Oni's ten ball move is likely what he used to dispatch Kaji.

So like I said. BJK can't be a move specifically for a 10baller.

It's clear that the same move used by different guys have different results as a function of their base stats. Momoshiro is not a 10 baller but he can still use a move that a 10 baller can, with lesser effect. Given Oni is obviously much stronger than Momoshiro it's safe to assume no one in the G11-G20 can return that. I consider that to be an appropriate power level for a 10-baller.

But then since I'm pretty sure any 10-baller can crush a G11-20 without using any special moves, this means BJK is likely a weak move at the 10-baller tier.

So given the serialized information I'd say Ryoma is stronger. The revised Kaji vs Oni game significantly boosted Oni's power. Before it looked like Kaji was just random court 3 level guy they grabbed to fill Oni's spot, but in the volume it's implied he can return BJK (he lost to a BJK+ level attack) and yet Oni still totally crushed him.

It should be pretty clear Oni is one of the major characters in NPOT. He told Duke to only use 60% against a middle schooler, which implies he thinks 60% of his power is sufficient even though Duke believes using 60% of his full power might result in him losing the game. That said he really hasn't done anything really impressive so far, which is why he supposed to have an upgrade in the volumes. I don't have the latest volume so I can't say for sure, but the scans looks legit.

 

[Kaoz]

Konomi actually changed the Kaji versus Oni game in volume 8 (I think? could be 7) from just 'sort of close' to 'total blowout' and Kaji saying Oni went to a level above Black Jack Knife.

Just wanted to confirm this, here's the page.

Wait, all doors of Muga are not allowed? I thought it was just Ten'imuhou no Kiwami. A controlled Hyaku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami is very deadly, as we saw VS Yukimura (before Echizen got Yipped)

Muga, Hyakuren and Saiki are technically allowed (if you want to compare, they were on Tezuka's ability list). The reason why I didn't include them for Ryoma is that I personally believe he can't use them anymore and his PP profile hasn't listed them. You're free to argue about them though.

 

[LetalHawk]

Ryoma wins this. I see him perfectly returning BJK and using Hyakuren to deal with Oni's upgrade. Still ryoma has to show more from mountain training, Konomi is waiting for him to play and give him a really strong upgrade. So yeah, assuming that he'll face a rank lower than No.5 and win automatically he is above Oni. Ryoma has amazing technique and will counter Oni's special moves,also muga and the fiirst two doors will make him win.

 

[-Ken-]

To those who think Ryoma can't return BJK, Kintarou comfortably return it BEFORE mountain training. Echizen surely have enough technique to return it. And Serious Oni is something we haven't seen yet, so I don't know if you want to take that into consideration. Even if you were, you also should take the hype Ryoma have into consideration too. I really don't see Ryoma losing this, at all.

 

[Hardy]

To those who think Ryoma can't return BJK, Kintarou comfortably return it BEFORE mountain training. Echizen surely have enough technique to return it. And Serious Oni is something we haven't seen yet, so I don't know if you want to take that into consideration. Even if you were, you also should take the hype Ryoma have into consideration too. I really don't see Ryoma losing this, at all.

Kintarou has a caveman's strenght, I think Ryoma hasn't.

He wasn't even able to return Big Bang in the Nationals, you think he'll be able to return BJK?

 

[ashore]

Muga no Kyouchi! ryoma! he saw ryoga return G10 #1 's Byoudin's super power glowing tennis ball

MAJOR EDIT: in ryoma's techniques box is missing MUGA NO kyouchi k, Hyrakuren, and 2nd door to muga?

so they are banned?

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

10 baller is a person who is fast enough to hit 10 balls. no where does it state black jack kniefe is dependent on hitting speed and accuracy of a player.

 

[-Ken-]

Kintarou has a caveman's strenght, I think Ryoma hasn't.

He wasn't even able to return Big Bang in the Nationals, you think he'll be able to return BJK?

Techniques can substitute strength. And Ryoma tech has grown considerably ever since then. I don't think Big Bang will be a problem anymore.

 

[Hardy]

Muga no Kyouchi! ryoma! he saw ryoga return G10 #1 's Byoudin's super power glowing tennis ball

MAJOR EDIT: in ryoma's techniques box is missing MUGA NO kyouchi k, Hyrakuren, and 2nd door to muga?

so they are banned?

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

10 baller is a person who is fast enough to hit 10 balls. no where does it state black jack kniefe is dependent on hitting speed and accuracy of a player.

READ EVERYTHING IN THE POST. How are we supossed to discuss if you don't read?

Muga, Hyakuren and Saiki are technically allowed (if you want to compare, they were on Tezuka's ability list). The reason why I didn't include them for Ryoma is that I personally believe he can't use them anymore and his PP profile hasn't listed them. You're free to argue about them though.

Techniques can substitute strength. And Ryoma tech has grown considerably ever since then. I don't think Big Bang will be a problem anymore.

Big Bang was a problem back then for weak players, Ryoma was one of them. Nowadays BJK is almost impossible to return, even for power players. I don't see Ryoma returning it.

 

[ashore]

How is Ryoma going to return BJK? "Ten'imuhou no Kiwami cannot be used by any character"

Oni destroys Ryoma's wrists and wins this by default.

with super ultra mega incredible turbo mountain storm !
well at least that's in the anime, not sure if that would work in the manga.
also how would Oni return RAI? echizen saw BJK , he could avoid it and intentionally miss it.

@eiji , please refresh my memory, i read the posts i'm not sure which post number u are referring to?

 

[-Ken-]

READ EVERYTHING IN THE POST. How are we supossed to discuss if you don't read?

Big Bang was a problem back then for weak players, Ryoma was one of them. Nowadays BJK is almost impossible to return, even for power players. I don't see Ryoma returning it.

I don't see Ryoma having problems with it. He might for couples of points. That's it. I see you are always giving other players in other match a possible "evolution" bonus. Ryoma is a single characters with the most evolution factor in the entire manga. He WILL win.

Echizen's highest potential is that he can evolved and deal with ANY kind of opponents. Do you seriously think Echizen would lost this match? If you do, reread PoT.

Echizen at the very least is very heavily implied to find out some way to deal with Rai (although it was show offscreen) when he was fighting Sanada when he was losing memories. He will find a way to win in this match, no doubt about it.

 

[Hardy]

I don't see Ryoma having problems with it. He might for couples of points. That's it. I see you are always giving other players in other match a possible "evolution" bonus. Ryoma is a single characters with the most evolution factor in the entire manga. He WILL win.

Echizen's highest potential is that he can evolved and deal with ANY kind of opponents. Do you seriously think Echizen would lost this match? If you do, reread PoT.

Echizen at the very least is very heavily implied to find out some way to deal with Rai (although it was show offscreen) when he was fighting Sanada when he was losing memories. He will find a way to win in this match, no doubt about it.

Actually, I didn't give anyone the "evolution bonus" i think it's crap (anyone can evolve into anything, It's just Konomi's decition).

Why would I read it again? If Ryoma is gonna win every single match JUST BECAUSE HE'S FREAKING ECHIZEN, then this tournament is useless and I'm wasting my time answering this.

 

[ashore]

we're still waiting on Kaoz to see if muga no kyouchi can be used. IF not ryoma is toast.

here's a question is returning a heavy powerful shot the same as producing it????


example:
with mUga, ryoma could copy Tanishi's big bang. Yukimura said, its the same strong shot but too simple.

but not sure if ryoma could return the big bang w/o muga. muga seems to grant extra strength from other super moves.


this would allow ryoma to use Kintarous super mountain shot vs ONI