Discussion Shin Prince of Tennis Tournament Discussion Thread

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Kaoz

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I'm not sure why this still seems to be a problematic concept.

Characters may have leveled up while we didn't see them, this may be discussed and factored in when making decisions. This is what's referred to as "reasonable improvements" in the rules.

That doesn't mean that a character gets wins because the plot says so, simply because we have no plot here.
 

Phantron

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The problem with Fuji is that he gets ridiculous upgrades whenever he faces superior competition, since he starts out with 'second fiddle to Tezuka' stats, unlike people like Sanada or even Shiraishi who at least can be thought of as a legitmate challenger as opposed to just a second fiddle. But of course since he's really supposed to Tezuka-level kind of good, so that means his improvements are generally way beyond anything reasonable. I've read a bunch of fanfic and whenever Fuji matches up against a G10 he always learns a 7th counter that either manipulates time, space or both. Not saying fanfic are at all definitive, but he's the one character where you can read about how 7th counter warps time and you kind of have to say, "Well, it is Fuji, you never know what he can do." But when you're literally allowed any amount of random powerups (supported by the manga) that makes speculating his potential pointless.

Any reasonable improvement on Fuji's part would result him getting stomped by a Tezuka calibur opponent. But Fuji's improvement are anything but reasonable, and yet just because his improvements are crazy you can't say, "Fuji uses Black Aura, TnK, yips, and annihilation ball at the same time. 6-0 Fuji." Yet, you can't also dismiss that as pure fandom because we're talking about Fuji. If he really did that in the manga, I certainly won't be surprised.
 

Ninomiya

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I'm not sure why this still seems to be a problematic concept.

Characters may have leveled up while we didn't see them, this may be discussed and factored in when making decisions. This is what's referred to as "reasonable improvements" in the rules.

That doesn't mean that a character gets wins because the plot says so, simply because we have no plot here.
But then why do others not understand this concept then?
As if Ryoma won't get reasonable improvement etc. And then blaming that on the plot even though Ryoma likely improved massively.
 

Kaoz

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Team 12 beats Team 3 2-1. The bracket image has been updated accordingly.

The champions are Fuji Shuusuke, Tachibana Kippei, Chitose Senri and Akutagawa Jirou!




Thanks to everyone who voted, participated in the discussion and gave feedback, I hope you enjoyed it.
Special thanks to [user]Darjaille[/user] for helping with the planning of the tournament and creating the match images, and [user]Miyagi[/user] for installing the revote plug-in and creating the bracket image.


This thread will remain open for 10 more days, so please use that time to further discuss the tournament; problems you may have had with the format, matches you would have liked to see and players you might have missed.
Also, would you like to have another tournament like this in the future (possibly with a different format)?

Furthermore, there will be a bonus round going on during the next week. We're searching for the strongest player in each of the positions to create an all star team.




Now, with that out of the way, I feel like I should explain some aspects behind the format and team creation. We chose a team format instead of an individual one to account for the, at times huge, gaps in abilities of the SPoT cast.

Our fear was that if we only had individual singles matches, there would be a lot less discussion and most of the early round matches would have been complete blowouts in terms of abilities. This also allowed us to include a Doubles aspect. I think it worked out reasonably well overall, although one could argue that just two seperate tournaments would have been better.

If you have any opinions on that, I'd be glad to hear them.

Regarding the characters I chose, I tried to keep a balance between those that were decently close skill wise and those that had shown us more complete playstyle. The two greatest oddballs here were probably Oni and Mouri, but I felt like they were the only ones (aside from maybe anime!Migihashi) who stood a chance against the rest of the S1 candidates.
Akutsu or Shiraishi certainly would have been possible, but then they would have missed in the D1 slot.

In S2, the strongest characters were probably Kabaji, Yamato and Matsudaira; the former two however have a more opponent depending strength, so they seemed like good choices here, whereas Matsu filled the last spot because he seemed like the weakest of the shown 3rd Court players (I'm not so happy about having him in this pool though to be perfectly honest).

The D1 pairs were overall fairly close in my opinion and I'm satisfied with all the combinations besides Date/Gin (because power vs non power just gets awkward).

Lastly, I tried to keep the teams' overall strength fairly equal, so if a team had a stronger S1, their S2 would be weaker.




I guess one last thing I could include here is how I personally saw the tournament matches and how I would have voted, in case anyone is interested.

Round 1

11 vs 12 -> 12
S1: Mouri vs Fuji -> Fuji
S2: Oshitari K. vs Akutagawa -> Oshitari
D1: Hakamada/Mitsuya vs Tachibana/Chitose -> Tachibana/Chitose

5 vs 8 -> 5
S1: Irie vs Niou -> Irie
S2: Yamato vs Kabaji -> Yamato
D1: Yagyuu/Krauser vs Date/Gin -> Date/Gin

7 vs 9 -> 7
S1: Ochi vs Kintarou -> Ochi
S2: Hiyoshi vs Matsudaira -> Matsudaira
D1: Inui/Yanagi vs Oishi/Kikumaru -> Inui/Yanagi

6 vs 10 -> 6
S1: Oni vs Atobe -> Oni
S2: Hirakoba vs Sengoku -> Sengoku
D1: Shishido/Tanishi vs Oshitari Y./Kaidou -> Shishido/Tanishi


Round 2

1 vs 12 -> 1
S1: Tezuka vs Fuji -> Tezuka
S2: Konjiki vs Akutagawa -> Konjiki
D1: Marui/Kite vs Tachibana/Chitose -> Tachibana/Chitose

2 vs 7 -> 2
S1: Yukimura vs Ochi -> Yukimura
S2: Kai vs Hiyoshi -> Kai
D1: Shiraishi/Kirihara vs Inui/Yanagi -> Inui/Yanagi

3 vs 5 -> 5
S1: Sanada vs Irie -> Irie
S2: Amane vs Yamato -> Yamato
D1: Taira/Momoshiro vs Yagyuu/Krauser -> Yagyuu/Krauser

4 vs 6 -> 4
S1: Echizen vs Oni -> Echizen
S2: Ibu vs Sengoku -> Sengoku
D1: Akutsu/Kawamura vs Shishido/Tanishi -> Akutsu/Kawamura


Semifinals

1 vs 2 -> 1
S1: Tezuka vs Yukimura -> Tezuka
S2: Konjiki vs Kai -> Konjiki
D1: Marui/Kite vs Shiraishi/Kirihara -> Marui/Kite

5 vs 4 -> 5
S1: Irie vs Echizen -> Irie
S2: Yamato vs Ibu -> Yamato
D1: Yagyuu/Krauser vs Akutsu/Kawamura -> Akutsu/Kawamura


Finals

1 vs 5 -> 5
S1: Tezuka vs Irie -> Irie
S2: Konjiki vs Yamato -> Yamato
D1: Marui/Kite vs Yagyuu/Krauser -> Marui/Kite


Champion: Irie, Yamato, Yagyuu, Krauser


That's about it for the time being. If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.
Again, thanks to all participants and helpers, and enjoy the bonus round.
 

LetalHawk

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Unbeliveable, Irie vs Tezuka Irie? Seriously?

That with TZ, plus Hyakuren and Saiki, would have lost? Not at all. Tezuka is likely to be stronger than Irie before unlocking POP. Just saying that Irie is stronger than Tezuka pre POP is really absurd, I won't think, and never, than Irie is and was stronger than Tezuka.
 

Ninomiya

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Well.
Nationals!Tezuka VS current Yukimura who no longer needs to be winning to Yip his opponent. You chose Tezuka? He would definetely get yipped if Sanada got Yipped and nobody was winning.

And since Tezuka would get TnK due to having ''Everything he set out to win''.
But there is no TnK. I see Yuki winning.

I see Sanada defeating Irie.

Why do you not see Hirakoba taking out Sengoku?
If Hirakoba forced a new counter out of Fuji, why won't he take out Sengoku?
Regionals!Fuji > Sengoku most likely.

They are both in 6th Court. Which is the throw-away court with Kamio and Amane too.
So their improvement shouldn't be any different from the other.

@LetalHawk, if Irie shat on Nationals!Atobe, perhaps he could do some kind of damage to Nationals!Tezuka.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Hold on Kaoz, also explain why Shishido/Tanishi > Oshitari.Y/Kaidoh lol.
 

Hardy

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S2: Hirakoba vs Sengoku -> Sengoku

I needed your help there man, Hirakoba was so OP as a singles 2, everyone was like "Big Habu owns everything" lol
 

Ninomiya

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S2: Hirakoba vs Sengoku -> Sengoku

I needed your help there man, Hirakoba was so OP as a singles 2, everyone was like "Big Habu owns everything" lol
I feel sorry for Sengoku. He is so neglected. It wasn't just Big Habu.
It was Habu as a standard Serve, and standard Smash and standard return.

He can hit constant Habu's freely. And his skill was just great.
Sengoku is weaker than Kamio not to mention.
 

-Ken-

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I feel likes a full on double only tournament would be wicked awesome. Doubles in general are fun to debate than Singles. I'll be thinking of some more pair and ask the forum in the future sometimes myself.
 

Hardy

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I feel sorry for Sengoku. He is so neglected. It wasn't just Big Habu.
It was Habu as a standard Serve, and standard Smash and standard return.

He can hit constant Habu's freely. And his skill was just great.
That's why I said I still need Kaoz lol, I want him to explain that.

Sengoku is weaker than Kamio not to mention
Stop that :-_-

Sengoku will get an upgrade and crush Byoudouin, you'll see :rolleyes:
 

Ninomiya

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LOL, you're a true fan.
I'm not. Those who are neglected I shall expose. Simple as that.
 

Hardy

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You don't love the forgotten bros anymore? Shame on you, you must be a spy working for Konomi.
 

Kaoz

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Unbeliveable, Irie vs Tezuka Irie? Seriously?

That with TZ, plus Hyakuren and Saiki, would have lost? Not at all. Tezuka is likely to be stronger than Irie before unlocking POP. Just saying that Irie is stronger than Tezuka pre POP is really absurd, I won't think, and never, than Irie is and was stronger than Tezuka.
Irie has very low power, so Hyakuren's effect would be minimal against him. On the flipside his technical abilities are very high which should be enough to overcome TZone. As for Saiki, it's called an "absolute prediction", whereas Irie can see through any prediction according to Oni.

The only things Tezuka has left are ZSS and TPhantom, and he won't overuse either of them since they damage his arm. Then Irie should still have somewhat higher stats (not quite as much as during the team shuffle but still by a bit).

So I don't see why you'd say Irie will definitely lose.

Well.
Nationals!Tezuka VS current Yukimura who no longer needs to be winning to Yip his opponent. You chose Tezuka? He would definetely get yipped if Sanada got Yipped and nobody was winning.
Still needs to return shots from what we know. Tezuka has the combination of Hyakuren and Saiki, which I believe to be enough to beat Yukimura.

I see Sanada defeating Irie.
I think both Tezuka vs Irie and Sanada vs Irie are very close, and you could make arguments for either side. I just went with Irie here.

Why do you not see Hirakoba taking out Sengoku?
If Hirakoba forced a new counter out of Fuji, why won't he take out Sengoku?
Regionals!Fuji > Sengoku most likely.

They are both in 6th Court. Which is the throw-away court with Kamio and Amane too.
So their improvement shouldn't be any different from the other.
I don't think Regionals!Fuji > Nationals!Sengoku. It's kinda difficult for Sengoku because we haven't seen very much of him, but he has some good results in the nationals.

Even if you discount the win against Sakata, he also beat the original Nagoya's S1. Those guys probably couldn't stand up to the foreigners, but at the same time they did make it to the SFs (and destroyed their QF opponent), so I think they could at least be on equal footing with most of Higa, if not better.

To get into some more match specific stuff, Shukuchihou shouldn't be an issue for Sengoku. As we've seen in the Seigaku vs Higa matches, it's pretty easy to seal in Singles when you know how to do it. I don't see Sengoku having any trouble with the normal Habu either; he is more of a technical player (so his normal swings are probably smaller) and he has the motion vision to help him out.

As for the Giant Habu, he only hit it once against Fuji/Kawamura and was completely worn out afterwards. Even with the improvement, I don't see him hitting it without trouble throughout the whole match.
And once Hirakoba's spin shots have weakened, Sengoku most definitely has the upper hand. Shukuchihou cannot be used to cover the sides and Hirakoba isn't as fast as Kamio was, so Sengoku's attack pattern from back then would still work.

Overall it should be close, but I see Sengoku edging out a win here.

They are both in 6th Court. Which is the throw-away court with Kamio and Amane too.
So their improvement shouldn't be any different from the other.
Indeed, there's no reason to assume their camp improvement is any different from each other, but I'm giving Sengoku credit for his regionals -> nationals improvements as well.

Hold on Kaoz, also explain why Shishido/Tanishi > Oshitari.Y/Kaidoh lol.
Where should I start with this one... as you probably noticed, Shishido/Tanishi is pretty much SP++ (just as Marui/Kite is CP++) and especially lately I'm getting the feeling that if the playstyles match like that, their teamwork will be displayed as just as good as the original pair's. So Shishido/Tanishi have an advantage there imo.

Next, neither Yuushi nor Kaidou have great power, so I can see them struggling with Big Bang (not necessarily aces, but they'll be on the defense).

Their offense on the other hand is based on being unpredictable with their shots, but Shishido has outstanding reflexes, meaning he could probably catch up to Kaidou's shots even after seeing what they are (remember that he's the only guy who we've actually seen capable of returning a Synchro shot outside the G10, and at a much earlier point in the series on top of that), and I can see Inducement Formation being enough to limit Yuushi's shots.

At the same time, the Rising Counter is still a potent offensive tool and Shukuchihou is actually useable in doubles.

Overall I think that Shishido/Tanishi have the upper hand in the beginning and that it'll gradually shift towards Yuushi/Kaidou as the match progresses. It's mostly a matter of whether they can finish it before Kaidou's stamina advantage kicks in, although looking back at it, maybe there's a higher chance of this happening than not.

So this is probably one of the matches I'd reconsider.
 

Fuji Shusuke

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LOL Fuji is champion XD
 

Ninomiya

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I could easily let you know that Fuji is just as technical as Sengoku or likely more.
Still pressured him.

Secondly, if your giving Regionals -> Nationals improvement to Sengoku, just how much are you giving?
Hirakoba wasn't all Habu. He was smashing and creating plays on his own.

Also, Habu is unpredictable, as Kite has shown us. You don't know whether its a normal shot or a Habu.

I don't see the evidence to assume Sengoku is suddenly going to be Hirakoba's level after he conceded 4 games to Richard Sakata.
Richard Sakata is the man who was satisfied after intense hell mountain training that he could run in a Zig Zag.
It says a lot. Sengoku is desperate for an upgrade.

I don't see Nationals!Sengoku's improvement being that great.
So he bt Nagoya's Singles 1.

They could have easily planned to put out their strongest players in the later stages since it's been shown as a tactic in the series.
I don't know why we should assume Schools from other Regions were as strong Higa if they haven't been included in the camp.

(I personally wondered immediately at the start why weren't all the Quarter FInalists included in the Camp.)

I want to talk about Gyro Laser. Why are we going to assume Shishido can return it when it shat on Kirihara and Yanagi couldn't?
Especially if all snakes and the Gyro Laser come from the same stance?

Kaidoh's Counter-punching lifted really highly in Nationals Finals by fighting by himself in matches while Inui collects.

I don't see Ultra High Speed Rising Counter really taking many points off of Kaidoh and Yushi who should know Shishido well.

Yushi's SSAS, DFDR etc. should take points. It raped Nationals!Momoshiro who is better than Shishido.

A confident win for Kaidoh and Yushi.
 

Kaoz

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I could easily let you know that Fuji is just as technical as Sengoku or likely more.
Still pressured him.
When you think about it, Fuji figured it out pretty fast. It's true that it took 3 games, but due to the fact that it was doubles and Kawamura couldn't return it at all, it was really only half that time at most.

And as much as you want to deny it, his enhanced vision gives Sengoku a tool that Fuji didn't have.

Hirakoba wasn't all Habu. He was smashing and creating plays on his own.
Habu and Shukuchihou are his major selling points, he hasn't shown anything more amazing than people like Sengoku did outside of those techniques.

Also, Habu is unpredictable, as Kite has shown us. You don't know whether its a normal shot or a Habu.
How is that gamebreaking if you don't have a huge swing?

I don't see the evidence to assume Sengoku is suddenly going to be Hirakoba's level after he conceded 4 games to Richard Sakata.
Richard Sakata is the man who was satisfied after intense hell mountain training that he could run in a Zig Zag.
I think we can all agree that those "upgrades" were rather questionable, and probably more of a way to express "everyone here leveled up" in two pages.

I don't see Nationals!Sengoku's improvement being that great.
So he bt Nagoya's Singles 1.

They could have easily planned to put out their strongest players in the later stages since it's been shown as a tactic in the series.
I don't know why we should assume Schools from other Regions were as strong Higa if they haven't been included in the camp.
The Nagoya regulars comfortably beat almost anyone they played in the nationals, unlike the other generic teams (who usually had close matches) we saw in the databooks and they were seeded. Tezuka (I believe) also described Nagoya in a positive light before the team shuffle for whatever it's worth.
It's not like Higa was super amazing outside of Kite.

And if Nanahara (the guy who lost to Sengoku) wasn't strong, what would be the point in giving us the results like that? What we see from Sengoku is him setting out to improve, then beating a superior version of the style he lost against and finally being the only one to beat the S1 of an apparently strong school.
If that's not Konomi telling us, this guy got a lot stronger since we last saw him, it's just not shown because he's not the focus of the story anymore, I don't know what else.

(I personally wondered immediately at the start why weren't all the Quarter FInalists included in the Camp.)
Probably because Konomi didn't want to bother introducing a bunch of new characters just to not do anything with them (since even if they're solid as I believe them to be, they aren't top).




I want to talk about Gyro Laser. Why are we going to assume Shishido can return it when it shat on Kirihara and Yanagi couldn't?
Especially if all snakes and the Gyro Laser come from the same stance?
It's only Tornado and Gyro that are hit from the same stance, which basically makes it a coinflip and kind of the same as Synchro. They are faster than whatever Oishi and Kikumaru could produce, but on the other hand the angle is worse and they are hit from the baseliner and not the net.

Yanagi and Kirihara also only faced it for five points, so it's not implausible that they could have returned it after a while. Even if not, Shishido had special training to improve his reaction time. Just because he's inferior to Yanagi and Kirihara overall doesn't mean he is so in every aspect.

Kaidoh's Counter-punching lifted really highly in Nationals Finals by fighting by himself in matches while Inui collects.

I don't see Ultra High Speed Rising Counter really taking many points off of Kaidoh and Yushi who should know Shishido well.
Hard to say. Kaidou's counter punching improved, but Shishido's did so as well probably. Even if Kaidou can catch up to the rising counter now, I'm not convinced that he can hit the Tornado/Gyro combination in that situation.

Yushi's SSAS, DFDR etc. should take points. It raped Nationals!Momoshiro who is better than Shishido.
Momoshiro also tried to predict what Yuushi was going to do, which was prevented via Sealed Heart. It's a different situation than Shishido reacting to shots.

Lastly, I'd like to emphasize Tanishi as well, who you didn't mentioned at all. Unlike in Singles, the presence of a second player makes sealing Shukuchihou much more difficult in Doubles. We've also seen that Yuushi struggles against power types.
To top it off, I'll also point towards the combination aspect I brought up.

I don't see it being a comfortable win at all.
 

Ninomiya

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So Sengoku off-screened a Nagoya player. He off-screened him so we don't know much.

And the play style that he lost to before, he only just defeated 6-4. That's not a comfortable win at all.

So he has Motion Vision. You're telling me Sengoku has better technique than Hirakoba?
So he can see the shot perhaps better, but he can only be taking light swings.

You're telling me light swings are enough to defeat Hirakoba? Why?
Sengoku won't be smashing with Dunk Smash much since openings would be harder to create when returning constant Habu's.

I don't see why currently at this stage in the storyline, Sengoku, who was said to have improved a bit,
Just a bit, since the Speed Play still took 4 games off of him, should be given this big improvement.

Konomi gave results for every single match that took place in the Nationals.
So the point to giving results to us was to make the databook have more worth.

He only edged over a 6-4 win. Not like he improved ''a lot''.
Don't think we should suddenly assume Richard Sakata was better than Kamio either.

Kamio > Sengoku too.

Not sure why we should assume Habu's from Smashes, Serves and standard returns shouldn't cause any problems for Sengoku.
This means you are saying Kikumaru > Sengoku really comfortably then.
 

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I don't know why people short change Irie. World of Ice reveals any error as a function of technique/form/skill so Irie having no icicles implies he plays tennis flawlessly from a technical point of view. He clearly has the same 'return anything' property that Yukimura is often credited with. He's so fast that he can actually pick up a dropped racket and hit back another shot, something that's never been done before. Yes I know that doesn't actually seem like it'd be very hard, but no one has ever done it prior to this point. While no middle schooler has any category above 5, Irie has 3 categories above 5, including a 7 on mental. His skill/speed/mental are just unfathomably good compared to middle schoolers.

In the long run his low endurance and power will probably hurt him against equal tier, but I don't see any middle schooler being able to take advantage of it at this point. Atobe certainly wasn't able to and armed with Atobe Kingdom he's perhaps the best offensive MS player right now, since right now there is literally no defense against AK. Oni is ranked ahead of him in the reserve team, so I can see some explanation like 'BJK can't be returned by tech' but certainly none of the MSer seem to have a move that'd punish Irie's lack of strength.
 

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Well.
Nationals!Tezuka VS current Yukimura who no longer needs to be winning to Yip his opponent. You chose Tezuka? He would definetely get yipped if Sanada got Yipped and nobody was winning.
What? Nowhere does it say Yukimura ever needed to be winning to Yip his opponent.
 

Kaoz

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And the play style that he lost to before, he only just defeated 6-4. That's not a comfortable win at all.
Well what do you expect? As much as we like to theorize it here, complete blowouts happen very rarely.

So he has Motion Vision. You're telling me Sengoku has better technique than Hirakoba?
Maybe? There's absolutely nothing to suggest either having a better technique than the other. Not like it's actually relevant here.

So he can see the shot perhaps better, but he can only be taking light swings.

You're telling me light swings are enough to defeat Hirakoba? Why?
Sengoku won't be smashing with Dunk Smash much since openings would be harder to create when returning constant Habu's.
You're acting like Habu is some godly move. The ball just curves a bit after it bounces, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get used to it after constantly hitting it for a game or two. According to what Hirakoba said ("You can see it clearly already"), the shot even follows a set path, it's not like it's random like Rai.

Konomi gave results for every single match that took place in the Nationals.
So the point to giving results to us was to make the databook have more worth.
Why have him win as the only person then? Why not have him lose as well, it's not like anyone would have been in an uproar.

He only edged over a 6-4 win. Not like he improved ''a lot''.
Don't think we should suddenly assume Richard Sakata was better than Kamio either.
So going from 6-7 against someone on city level to 6-4 against someone on national level is negligible? Sure why not.

And whether Sakata was better than Kamio or not is something we can't say. He was probably faster though (at least before Moujuu).

Kamio > Sengoku too.
Because...?

Not sure why we should assume Habu's from Smashes, Serves and standard returns shouldn't cause any problems for Sengoku.
Yeah they'll cause problems for like two games maybe, not the whole match.

This means you are saying Kikumaru > Sengoku really comfortably then.
What. Seriously where did this come from.
 
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