Info Shin Prince of Tennis Tournament II - Information & Discussion

[Ninomiya]

I have to disagree. Not necessarily with VH being the better offensive move, but Kai won at least 13 points after Kikumaru started using the one man doubles. Returning a move twice over that time is far from what I'd call consistent.

At the time Kikumaru used One Man Doubles and Kai was using Viking Horn, wasn't Kikumaru also winning points with One man Doubles at a not far from equal rate?
I don't remember too well on that matter but iirc they were both going toe-to-toe with Seal Step VS VH

You mean like in real life? You should know yourself that even when you're serving, winning almost 90% of the points is a very good quota, especially when you're not a big server.

Sure real life too, which takes away from Shishido that keeping his serve doesn't bring much favour into his rallying skills since it was his serve. And then his serve again which got broken and caused him to be sent packing.

From what I remember, most people found Kai vs Sengoku to be incredibly even and just had to decide for one in the end. Sengoku vs Shishido? I don't know, but since Sengoku seems to be pretty good against speed players, I guess I'd give it to him?

If you want to use this to argue that Kai > Sengoku and Sengoku > Shishido, thus Kai > Shishido, match-ups are a thing.

Fine.

Viking Horn isn't a move Atobe thinks is worth using, if anything he was mocking it as a low level move, given that he called it "child's play".

I dunno, I felt he was saying Ryoma's Muga no Kyouchi was just child's play. Since he brought out Higuma Otoshi and was dishing out trashtalk too.
Didn't he have something negative to say even when Ryoma used Tannhauser Serve and he returned it with Front Foot Hop effortlessly?

I have to disagree again. Of course they're trying to maximize their strengths, it's doubles after all, but if one of them is the backbone of the pair in normal rallies, it's most certainly Shishido (we usually see him rather than Ootori when it isn't time for Scud and Neo Scud).

One may be the backbone sure but its due to Doubles why he excels there like Atobe said.
Atobe even said that in Singles Shishido "is finished, but in Doubles, your efforts may be rewarded".

As an overall player, yeah, in terms of speed? Doubtful.

For me, the returning of VH by Atobe was all about Mental or Technique and not about Speed there. The way in which he read the move just showed how Atobe was just on a whole other level.

---

Anyway, here's the other response:

That's not exactly what he said. All he said was that overall, Hyoutei was a stronger team than Seigaku, and if he'd be concerned about anyone, it'd be them. But he also says that nothing will stop Rikkai.
So it's more like "Hyoutei are the second strongest, but they're still no match for us."

At the least, they were a rival to Seigaku who you decided to mention.

The difference is smaller than you claim. All of Rikkai's players are supposed to be Tezuka level, even if we're talking about the guy with an injured arm and his best move sealed, that's still pretty damn strong.

The difference is as big as it looks.
Yukimura, Sanada, Tezuka, Ryoma, Kintarou, Atobe, Fuji VS Yukimura, Sanada, Yanagi, Niou, Yagyuu, Kirihara, Marui & Jackal
That's pretty bad and a complete slaughter no matter which way I look at it excluding the part where Yukimura and Sanada face themselves.

The gap between Marui and Jackal who are equal to Gimp!Tezuka and Akutagawa is enormous.
Gimp!Tezuka took like 6 straight games from Prefecturals!Inui? The same Inui who beat the Momoshiro that beat Sengoku? Long story short it looks terrible for Hyoutei who's No.2 is considerably weaker than Marui.

You originally said that Hyoutei turned into a joke because Akutgawa lost to Marui. You added the challenger part in your second post, and if that was your intention from the beginning, then I apologize.

I don't really disagree that Hyoutei has no business challenging Rikkai, but the same can really be said for almost everyone, so I don't see it as a big deal.

My bad I wasn't clear enough.
For me its a big deal since Hyoutei are just an entire tier away from what Rikkai is. Or even more than a tier.
And a tier from Seigaku and maybe even Shiten.

I named them because they're are the only teams that can somewhat deal with Rikkai to underline that not standing a chance against Rikkai doesn't make you into a terrible team.

Well, they're arrogance towards winning tournaments becomes a bit comical. They had no chance from the get-go with Jirou as the No.2.

 

[Phantron]

The guys from Higa all have relatively weak moves (Kite knows all their moves and he remarked that his moves kind of suck), but due to their speed they can return pretty much anything in the 'human tier'. For example Hirakoba had no problem returning Fuji's counters and those are pretty powerful so far as 'human tier' is considered. Now of course they'd have no chance against guys with superhuman powers and that can be as minor as Kikumaru turning into two guys and starting playing doubles by himself but I always thought the Higa guys should absolutely clean up against guys who don't have totally crazy moves. Any moves that appear remotely humanely possibly should have very little effect on the Higa guys.

 

[-Ken-]

Sure real life too, which takes away from Shishido that keeping his serve doesn't bring much favour into his rallying skills since it was his serve. And then his serve again which got broken and caused him to be sent packing.

Even when high tier are playing, they really don't keep 90% of their serve. Their opponent score more than that.

View Shishido vs Ootori as Echizen vs Tanishi. Except Tanishi won.

Shishido is able to keep most of his serve. Ootori mainly only score on his serve except for that very last ball. It might even be accurately to say "score by his serve".

 

[Hardy]

I always thought the Higa guys should absolutely clean up against guys who don't have totally crazy moves. Any moves that appear remotely humanely possibly should have very little effect on the Higa guys.

Yamabuki (with Akutsu) has no special moves, but I really think that they would be equal / give a good fight against Higa.

---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

The Shishido / Chotarou thingy could be read backwards btw. Shishido lost against a guy (that, very possibly, sucks HARD at rallies) who only used his serve to win points until the very last ball.

 

[Phantron]

Yamabuki (with Akutsu) has no special moves, but I really think that they would be equal / give a good fight against Higa.

---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

The Shishido / Chotarou thingy could be read backwards btw. Shishido lost against a guy (that, very possibly, sucks HARD at rallies) who only used his serve to win points until the very last ball.

Akutsu is definitely out of the 'human tier' by the time NPOT comes around though. Before? Yeah, he's probably one of the strongest human around, so it'd be a good fight against Higa guys who are all near the top of the human tier.

For serves, based on the recent development in NPOT I've come to the conclusion:

1. If neither guys are known for having a special serve, then both characters have a significant advantage while serving like real tennis. For example, Atobe seems to be able to hold his serve quite comfortably in his G10 doubles match until he had a mental breakdown. Kintaro was able to hold his against Oni in the last game, who is presumably still considerably stronger than him.

2. If a guy is known for serving, his serve is either 100% effective or 0% effective depending on whether the opponent can counter it. For example, see Ochi, who scored aces on every point and then suddenly was unable to hold his serve anymore after Niou used Tezuka Phantom, or after Atobe synchronized with Niou. This is despite the fact that Tezuka Phantom has no effect on serves, and that Niou somehow was able to return a serve while on the floor that he cannot return normally, because they somehow 'figured it out'.

 

[Kaoz]

At the time Kikumaru used One Man Doubles and Kai was using Viking Horn, wasn't Kikumaru also winning points with One man Doubles at a not far from equal rate?
I don't remember too well on that matter but iirc they were both going toe-to-toe with Seal Step VS VH

Yes. First Kikumaru took a lead with the normal Seal Step, then Kai caught up with VH, afterwards they each kept their service games in VH vs One Man Doubles. My argument was only meant to illustrate that OMD isn't some kind of invincible fortress.

Sure real life too, which takes away from Shishido that keeping his serve doesn't bring much favour into his rallying skills since it was his serve. And then his serve again which got broken and caused him to be sent packing.

Are you purposefully ignoring these numbers? I don't know about you, but I don't really see people win 90% of the rallies on their serve unless there is a huge skill gap.

I dunno, I felt he was saying Ryoma's Muga no Kyouchi was just child's play. Since he brought out Higuma Otoshi and was dishing out trashtalk too.
Didn't he have something negative to say even when Ryoma used Tannhauser Serve and he returned it with Front Foot Hop effortlessly?

I think it was both. In that situation to me it feels like he's saying "What kind of trash are you throwing at me, is that all Muga is good for? Look, I can do this as well without Muga." Or something along those lines.

He wasn't trash talking when using Higuma Otoshi (he did after the point though) or when he returned Tannhauser though.

One may be the backbone sure but its due to Doubles why he excels there like Atobe said.
Atobe even said that in Singles Shishido "is finished, but in Doubles, your efforts may be rewarded".

True, but that essentially just means he isn't getting a singles spot over Atobe, Akutagawa, Oshitari and Kabaji.

For me, the returning of VH by Atobe was all about Mental or Technique and not about Speed there. The way in which he read the move just showed how Atobe was just on a whole other level.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, if you're looking at what the move does, you can't deny that speed is an important factor if you're not on a whole other level.

---

At the least, they were a rival to Seigaku who you decided to mention.

I was referring to Nationals!Seigaku, whereas Sanada was talking about Tokyo!Seigaku. You agree that there is quite a difference between the two, right?

The difference is as big as it looks.

The normal Rikkai arguably has better doubles, but that's besides the point. I chose an extreme example to illustrate that just comparing numbers and calling it a day isn't a fair assessment.

Gimp!Tezuka took like 6 straight games from Prefecturals!Inui? The same Inui who beat the Momoshiro that beat Sengoku? Long story short it looks terrible for Hyoutei who's No.2 is considerably weaker than Marui.

3 games from Kanto!Inui (well, not quite, but Inui already had the physical improvement). And if you add Supersonic Serve to that Inui, he went even with Yanagi.

That said, I don't quite follow your logic here and how it relates to Akutagawa.

Well, they're arrogance towards winning tournaments becomes a bit comical. They had no chance from the get-go with Jirou as the No.2.

Realistically speaking no, they're in the same region as Rikkai after all. They could have maybe done something in Tokyo if they had used their regulars there.

For example Hirakoba had no problem returning Fuji's counters and those are pretty powerful so far as 'human tier' is considered.

That was doubles and the original triple counter happen to be pretty linear if you're just talking about placement. In singles, Kikumaru has demonstrated that Shukuchihou is ineffective though.

 

[Ninomiya]

3 games from Kanto!Inui (well, not quite, but Inui already had the physical improvement). And if you add Supersonic Serve to that Inui, he went even with Yanagi.

That said, I don't quite follow your logic here and how it relates to Akutagawa.

I was saying how enormous the gap must be between Marui and Akutagawa. If Marui is the same as Gimp!Tezuka who beat KantoSemifinals!Inui (He improved again in the final), then the gap between Marui and Akutagawa must be silly since that sort of level of player shouldn't be getting mopped by Fuji 6-1 at that stage.
Yushi, Hiyoshi can't be that good. Unless, they're literally right behind Akutagawa like literally.

True, but that essentially just means he isn't getting a singles spot over Atobe, Akutagawa, Oshitari and Kabaji.

Not quite, Hiyoshi has appeared in Singles since and got damn Mukahi Gakuto appeared in Singles 3 in the 2nd Round against Shishigaku at Nationals.

It should also imply Shishido just isn't good to go for Singles.

Are you purposefully ignoring these numbers? I don't know about you, but I don't really see people win 90% of the rallies on their serve unless there is a huge skill gap.

Its due to Shishido's combo of Dash and Rising Counter as oppose to his base stats most likely.
The combo of Dash and Rising Counter is a sort of kryptonite to a Serve & Volley player which Ootori Choutarou happens to be.
Play Style is a big factor in that situation which is what likely lead to Shishido winning 87.5% of the rallies.

However, Rising Counter & Dash is a far from invincible counter and Ootori broke it.
Back to Kikumaru I keep forgetting he has Motion Vision which is a massive help when dealing with extremely fast paced moves i.e. Rising Counter.

Yes. First Kikumaru took a lead with the normal Seal Step, then Kai caught up with VH, afterwards they each kept their service games in VH vs One Man Doubles. My argument was only meant to illustrate that OMD isn't some kind of invincible fortress.

Never said it was. The opponent here is Shishido Ryou though, so my point is that at this level in PoT it is a valuable move.

That's certainly true. On the other hand, if you're looking at what the move does, you can't deny that speed is an important factor if you're not on a whole other level.

Yes and no.
It reminds me, is there a page in the manga which makes a not of how notably fast Kikumaru is? The anime references his speed but I'm not sure if the manga did.
Since it will help determine where the main basis of breaking VH lies in.

 

[Hardy]

Yes and no.
It reminds me, is there a page in the manga which makes a not of how notably fast Kikumaru is? The anime references his speed but I'm not sure if the manga did.
Since it will help determine where the main basis of breaking VH lies in.

Something like this?

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27075-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-178.html

 

[Kaoz]

the gap between Marui and Akutagawa must be silly since that sort of level of player shouldn't be getting mopped by Fuji 6-1 at that stage.
Yushi, Hiyoshi can't be that good. Unless, they're literally right behind Akutagawa like literally.

It is a big gap, I'm not denying that. And I'd guess Yuushi is pretty much right behind him, even though I have nothing to back that speculation up. Dunno about Hiyoshi.

Not quite, Hiyoshi has appeared in Singles since and got damn Mukahi Gakuto appeared in Singles 3 in the 2nd Round against Shishigaku at Nationals.

Against Shishigaku, Hyoutei didn't seem to use a serious line-up, Shishido and Ootori played in different doubles for instance. So I wouldn't put too much weight on Mukahi playing S3.

The combo of Dash and Rising Counter is a sort of kryptonite to a Serve & Volley player which Ootori Choutarou happens to be.

Kikumaru also happens to be a serve and volley player, so if you want to reduce it to playstyles, the same would apply to him, wouldn't it?
(Except that unlike Ootori, he doesn't have a Neo Scud to fall back on.)

Never said it was. The opponent here is Shishido Ryou though, so my point is that at this level in PoT it is a valuable move.

I don't believe I ever denied this. If I remember my posts correctly, my main gripe with this was that there were claims that Kikumaru could just use it to beat Shishido effortlessly. I then pointed out that he didn't win every game since he started using it and that it seemed to drain his stamina faster.

Yes and no.
It reminds me, is there a page in the manga which makes a not of how notably fast Kikumaru is? The anime references his speed but I'm not sure if the manga did.
Since it will help determine where the main basis of breaking VH lies in.

Well, there's the page Hardy linked. However, in this context I would like to say that the step is designed to let Kikumaru switch from side to side quickly, he still has to decide for one at some point. Basically Kai delayed his shot until after Kikumaru decided.

What I'm proposing is that Shishido doesn't decide for a side before Kai hits the ball and then uses his quick reactions (remember that he managed to catch Scud Serve from the service line) and Dash to catch up to the shot.

 

[Hardy]

Well, there's the page Hardy linked. However, in this context I would like to say that the step is designed to let Kikumaru switch from side to side quickly, he still has to decide for one at some point. Basically Kai delayed his shot until after Kikumaru decided.

I thought he just hit VHs to the center (as Kikumaru can be in 2 places at the same time, but being on 3 surely drains his stamina like hell so he doesn't do it often.

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27075-13/prince-of-tennis/chapter-178.html

 

[Kaoz]

He's never in two places at the same time. Both Saeki on that page and Inui a couple pages before explain that he's just moving back and forth quickly.

 

[Hardy]

... I know, but you get my point.

 

[Phantron]

I always thought the point was that there really was two Kikumarus which is why people can't believe what they saw, because 'moving really fast to appear like two guys' isn't anything really noteworthy in POT at that point. But at any rate that game was 7-6 and Kai used the wrong strategy (he tried to wear down Kikumaru without realizing he suddenly doubled his stamina). Put it another way, Viking Horn is a difficult move to return even against a guy who is moving so fast that it appears there are two of him. Sure if you're Atobe who can probably shoot laser beams from his eyes too, VH is just a party trick, but for the mere mortals it's a decent move.

 

[Kaoz]

The first finalists have been decided. With decisive victories, Tachibana Kippei beat Momoshiro Takeshi (10 - 1) and Kai Yuujirou bested the man with the long racket, Amane Hikaru (8 - 0). In a slightly closer match, Shiraishi and Matsudaira defeated the Oshitari cousins, 6 votes to 2.

Next, their opponents will be decided:
Singles - High Tier: Shiraishi Kuranosuke vs Yamato Yuudai
Singles - Low Tier: Shishido Ryou vs Hiyoshi Wakashi
Doubles: Miyako Shinobu / Yanagi Renji vs Marui Bunta / Kaidou Kaoru

---------- Post added August 23, 2013 at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was August 20, 2013 at 10:02 PM ----------

I should have covered this in my initial reply already, but guess I'm gonna do it here instead:

This is like Phantrom saying that "if you stay behind the baseline, AK won't work"... real life logic doesn't work here

While it might seem counter intuitive, people seem to have blind spots in front of them as well. Haven't found a page on which you can see it exceptionally well, but if you look at this one: http://www.mangareader.net/422-27198-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-301.html you can see an icicle a fair bit before Ryoma's feet at least.

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

The second half of the semifinals have concluded. In a close battle, Yamato Yuudai managed to take out Shiraishi Kuranosuke with 6 votes to 4. Marui/Kaidou defeated Yanagi and Miyako with a 2 vote difference as well (3 - 1) whereas Hiyoshi Wakashi earned a comfortable win against his teammate Shishido (9 - 0).

The final round has started:
Singles - High Tier: Yamato Yuudai vs Tachibana Kippei
Singles - Low Tier: Hiyoshi Wakashi vs Kai Yuujirou
Doubles: Marui Bunta / Kaidou Kaoru vs Shiraishi Kuranosuke / Matsudaira Chikahiko

 

[Phantron]

While it might seem counter intuitive, people seem to have blind spots in front of them as well. Haven't found a page on which you can see it exceptionally well, but if you look at this one: http://www.mangareader.net/422-27198-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-301.html you can see an icicle a fair bit before Ryoma's feet at least.

You can have blind slot spots in front of you but it's still going to be relatively close to you so if you stand far enough back, all your blind spots must be out of bounds as well. Imagine a person starts out by the back wall, from that spot there's no way any spot on the court itself is unreachable due to vision or the angle of your skeleton. Any such blind spots would have to be relatively close to you but you don't have to worry about them because they're out of bounds. Now of course this does leave you pretty vulnerable to any normal hits if you're standing that far back, but if you can move at the speed of light like Sanada that's not really a big deal.

Actually looking at the AK line of technique some more, it seems like the opponent is always standing on no man's land (not baseline, not near net). I mean if you're standing by the net how can you possibly not see a ball coming your way? And if you're behind the baseline, the ball has to bounce in front of you no matter what so you should be able to see it fine. It's only possible to have reach/vision issues if you're standing in no man's land, but that's why you're not supposed to stand there. So maybe people will counter that by just standing in the right spot.

 

[Kaoz]

I don't think you could counter it just by standing in a normal spot. Ryoma had blind spots even when he was close to the net, and from personal experience I think it's possible to have blind spots that aren't directly in front of you when you're at the baseline.

Anyway, for Rai, I can't argue that it won't work like you describe it, but if you get down to it, does his position really matter? It's not like people have no clue where the ball is when Atobe targets their blind spot, they just can't get there. So it shouldn't be that different from someone hitting past Sanada after he uses Ka, should it?

 

[-Ken-]

If Atobe Kingdom/World of Ice wouldn't work against Rai, it would be due to In and not Rai, in my opinion. Every tech really have a blind spot. All direction Shu is not invincible, neither is Akutsu sliding.

 

[Kaoz]

The finals are over! We got to see three close matches, and here are the champions:


Singles - High Tier: Yamato Yuudai (7 - 6)

Singles - Low Tier: Kai Yuujirou (5 - 3)

Doubles: Marui Bunta / Kaidou Kaoru (6 - 3)


Thanks to everyone who voted and participated in the discussion. This thread will remain open for one more week, so if you have any feedback or other comments, now is the time.
And if you would rather discuss some more, check out the bonus rounds.

Again, thanks everyone, and special thanks to [user]Miyagi[/user] for the various plug-ins.

 

[-Ken-]

So? He won those games just with power, and Wakashi just won those games because Ryoma let him.

Except Echizen doesn't? He is said to keep the tension high the entire match. Wow, high tension means going easy on the opponent? I learn something new about English language today.

Or not.

These are all low tier players...

So Hiyoshi feat of stomping Kaidoh/Inui is low tier?

Sure...

I'm sure the so beloved Kikumaru and Kai can stomp Kaidoh and Inui too.

Oh, but Hiyoshi run out of stamina before he do so? Of course, did you happen to read his last match with Atobe that he overcome that? Guess not.

 

[Hardy]

I learn something new about English language today.

You learn something new every day ^^

So Hiyoshi feat of stomping Kaidoh/Inui is low tier?

Ok, Gakuto was stomping Kaidoh/Inui too. That means that Gakuto is top tier now.