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So nostalgic..I wish we could go back, even though the bleak future that awaits is scary

Discussion in 'Meet the Moderators' started by Holt, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Purity of Magi

    Purity of Magi Registered User

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    Oh, just lovely Niichan-kun. That was seriously pretty much the only thing I wanted to say to him and because writing that wouldn't take me 30+ minutes =3= /.The manga version of this EP (actually the whole manga itself ~) are truly helpful Holtish and it definitely is going to clear your mind a lot more, I am very certain about that unless you're gonna pull an amazing Holtish action I have yet to see =3=
    --- Double Post Merged, May 16, 2018 ---
    Oh yeah one more thing.... I will post this lovely cute fanart! Unless Niichan-kun will be like ''NOPE!'' then he can take it away. =3=/

    [​IMG]

     
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  2. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    Haha, sorry my last reply was in response to yours XD

    Yeah, I can tell that I'm close enough thought not quite there yet. And more hints are dropping by the way.

    Also, Wright did say that it's possible to figure out the culprit and everything by Ep 4. That sounds ridiculous though, because at that time we are still rather engrossed in if the crimes were committed by magic or not. And of course, without first ascertaining that fact, it's hard to make logical guesses by then. Furthermore, even if they could figure out the culprit (tbh, it's not that difficult to guess that the culprit was one or more of the servants) but there are 3 major questions: who, why, how. Tbh, I think you can only really get the who and maybe the why..though I'm not sure the why is that clear, after all the games so far have championed George and Jessica as lovers, far more than any other. Anyway, I'm almost done I guess, though gonna take a little break for now XD
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  3. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    @niichan @Purity of Magi
    So I'm done...I actually finished yesterday but was trying to collect my thoughts after everything was upturned again.
    Err, wtf?! When will everything end?

    Tbh, I felt I got a pretty good grasp of everything and then it's once again taken to shit XD.

    My observations, so it seems Shannon is Beatrice? But didn't actually commit the murders or would have committed them anyway. Also, the game shown in the tea party which was proclaimed to be the truth by Bern (even though she didn't complete the sentence) mirrors the game where Eva survived. I said once that I thought that was probably the real game, but you denied it nii....Am I missing something?

    Well, I think I get the concept now. Basically, Eva is the sole survivor of the tragedy, the fact that there's no evidence or anything to be found implies the bomb attached to the clock must have gone off. So the question is "What happened during those days?" It seems numerous "truths" or perhaps theories are what we've been viewing, but apparently Eva released her own truth using a message bottle at some point? So if we follow that, it's possible Shannon didn't commit the crimes even though she's beatrice?

    Tbh, I'm kinda lost again. It seemed pretty clear that shannon was beatrice, she had help from some of the servants possibly including Kanon, Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo (probably the latter's part was to give inaccurate checks eg saying someone is dead when they're not) and committed the large scale crime. The little exchange claire had with will supports this imo. I believe when he said illusions he referred to lies, some of the closed rooms can be explained this way, however, I kinda remember Beato confirming a lot of those deaths in red though. I would love to replay some to make sure but I really can't do that XD

    However, Eva's story kinda contradicts this. So I don't know anymore :bored

    Btw, which chapters do I need to read? And Links please XD
     
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  4. niichan

    niichan BB

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    I will leave this one to Magi, bc I'm away and busy until tomorrow xD more from me then
     
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  5. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    I freaking knew it!
    The first few pages already confirms some things for me. I did believe Gaap was an illusion (and yasu naturally must have been an alter ego or split personality).
    For the key trick where one of the servants loses a key off her chain, I already thought of the idea that the ring with a missing key was Shannon's and she had taken out the key previously then taken the complete key ring and replaced it with hers. I'm glad my theory was actually right...although, it's was the obvious one.

    Also, I like the angle that the manga takes. In the VN, in that scene, Shannon made it seem as though she watched a witch manipulate the keys, it's incredibly misleading tbh. Even my theory had no basis in that scene since the depictions were completely different. Plus she made it seem as though she was possessed which was obviously crap. Anyway, will post more later, but I can already say this will be incredibly satsifying
    --- Double Post Merged, May 19, 2018, Original Post Date: May 19, 2018 ---
    NIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAGIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Come and Explain this mess!. Kanon and Shannon are the same? How the hell is that possible?
    1. Shannon has massive boobs. How can she possibly hide that when she's masquerading as kanon? OR.....don't tell me she never grew boobs and just always stuffed them? Feck, that would explain everything :facepalm. wow
    ok,
    2. Weren't there times that shannon and kanon were seen together? Honestly, maybe I'll just stop here, but I'm pretty sure there were times when they were seen together. Or that Kanon and shannon talked to each other. I do know that since Kanon and shannon are talking to each other, then of course there's no proof....but this seems like a really big troll XD. Now that I think of it, Kanon is rarely seen, and my immediate recall doesn't actually place the two of them together, but it's tough to believe that they were all so spectacularly fooled.
     
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  6. niichan

    niichan BB

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    lol that's the thing I meant when I said you didn't understand everything

    Yeah, they're one and the same. Meaning Beatrice/Kanon/Shannon are all Yasuda Sayo. Tbh that's another thing that surprised me, that you thought Yasu was a split personality when she's the source of all of them lol. Dunno if you read the whole thing yet, so I won't say more than answer your questions xD Shanon was the name she took when Yasu "left" (I think that scene was there in the VN), because that imaginary friend is how she wanted to be. It was her way to "get rid" of the weak and pathetic Yasu. Just like how Kanon and Beatrice both are a sort of defense mechanism to protect herself, to feel less miserable.

    And yes, her boobs have always been pads. For example that's why she was so scared when Battler jokingly tried to touch her boobs in EP1 lol. You never see her and Kanon together, with the exception of 1) They're alone or 2) They're ONLY with her accomplices (all Servants including Nanjo, and then others depending on the specific EP).

    But it's not really that big of a troll, it's been hinted at many times. They're furniture, only one of them can achieve happiness (remember how often they actually talked about that lol), name similarity and came from the same place. Episode 6 was especially full with small and bigger hints. That's why they have that whole duel stuff my friend xD It's also how they fooled Erika here, Sayo basically "killed" her Kanon persona in the locked room, hence Kanon was obviously gone but there was still someone in the room, namely Sayo.

    Sayo ofc could only pull this off thanks to the Servants (besides Gohda), who supported her willingly bc she's the official heir. Also helped that she was posing as Shanon and Kanon by years, at that point. Add to that the whole gender issue, and it's not so hard to imagine that she could play both roles. If you read all three chapters I think you can see the extent of her misery... it's a lot of different things coming together.

    It all started with Kinzo, then Natsuhi tried to kill her (most people believe she was female from the start, but it never gets confirmed 100%, remember how they never say Lion's gender in EP7), Battler broke his promise bc Rudolf fooled around with Kyrie, Rosa gave her an ideal accomplice/friend thanks to Maria's abuse, Eva trying to keep her away from George (I'm sure you recall how she told Sayo that she's not worthy of her George, that she shouldn't aim for something that's too good for her), Krauss bad money business and his decision to hide Kinzo's death... basically the Ushiromiya family ruined her whole life but gave her the perfect ground to pursue revenge. And ofc, while Genji and Nanjo and Kumasawa only meant the best, they saved her life and kept her away from Kinzo. If that was for the better or worse is mb hard to say, but it's understandable that Genji stopped trusting Kinzo when it comes to Beatrice and hence hid the fact that his daughter/granddaughter is still alive.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 19, 2018 ---
    oh and it seems you didn't get the HUUUUGE HINT in EP7 either

    If you remember how Shannon went REALLY WEIRD when Will told her to call Kanon to this place, and how Will felt like he barely avoided a "game over". Ofc she would vehemently deny his request bc it's impossible to call him lol, but he was supposed to figure it out naturally.
     
  7. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    No, I didn't get the hint from Will back when Shannon refused to call Kanon and have both of them present. But after reading this chapter I realized that's what it meant.

    Back then I found it weird, since it seemed important enough, but I didn't consider them being the same person XD

    Man, so much makes sense now, but there was way too much happening for me to have possibly predicted Shannon and Kanon are the same. And of course, I didn't know she had so many accomplices until recently. All the servants + Nanjo is more than enough to back her up.
    Also, a lot of the closed rooms make sense now, and also the Ep.6 one works too like you explained. Kanon did enter the room, but her words meant locking him up forever (and this tallies with Kanon losing the duel to shannon as well, I suppose I should interpret that as Shannon's alter ego love for george winning out over that of Jessica). So Sayo remained in the room, but Kanon's as a personality died. Interesting tbh haha

    Erika basically dug herself into a hole when she told Battler to say everyone, instead of mentioning the names, because truthfully everyone else was (she just didn't know Kanon wasn't among those since he was in the other room as shannon) and he wouldn't have been able to repeat it in red (though tbh, he might since it doesn't seem Battler was aware they're the same person). However, I recall a red truth saying that each name refers to one and only one person. I think it's a loophole because no matter how much Yasu may pretend to be shannon or kanon, that red truth implied that a person cannot have two names. I think it was explicitly stated. Well I can't fully recall this and not bothered enough to check. I suppose probably this was mostly referring to the first room where the names were mentioned..

    Well I thought Yasu was a split personality because though she was the origin, that was basically the first one to be killed off, and then it was mostly shannon, then beato..Ah well, the point was that I got that Yasu/Shannon/Beato were the same, just didn't know Kanon was in there too..Damn she played quite the role.

    The furniture thing was probably the biggest hint, however, though it was mentioned many times, I couldn't just get why they both had to duel or why they were incomplete. I thought about it often but it just didn't click XD. Tbh, there were a lot of equally distracting things happening too.

    EDIT: Also, didn't George and Jessica witness the duel? Obviously it didn't exactly happen like that, but what is the explanation for that completely misleading scene? I know some things there must have been illusionary, but George and Jessica were supposed to be there, as well as Kanon and Shannon. They watched Shannon kill Kanon.. Does this mean Jessica and George basically found out Sayo is the same, and were simply watching her struggle over who she would choose?

     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  8. niichan

    niichan BB

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    Well that's why I told you and syx that there's no way to solve this if you don't make notes and try to connect the dots after each episode. Even then it's difficult enough, because so much happens and the fantasy is really distracting (though in a positive way most often), if you don't sit back and think about everything regularly and thoroughly it's basically impossible to figure this stuff out. But like I said, back when the game was released there were some people who solved everything by the end of EP4 (meaning how the crimes were committed, who did it, Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice, the epitaph... ofc some backstory stuff you only get with eps 5-8), those maniacs lol xD ofc there are people like this here too:

    Yeah, considering she could use all Servants (expect Gohda) however she wanted gave her one big advantage. But that's why she was counting on that miracle that someone would solve the epitaph :)

    I think you're referring to how Lambda or someone said in red that you can't call Rosa Kinzo, or something like that xD Basically that you can't simply call one person by another name, so that doesn't contradict anything. Even then, the term "person" leaves room for interpretation in the first place. In a sense Kanon and Shannon are each their own person, they're simply played by the same human xD Umineko really likes to play with words.

    And hey it's okay, I didn't figure out they're the same until EP7 either haha. There's damn lot going over your head bc there's so much going on, even today I sometimes find an aspect or fact I didn't really realize back then lol. Like at first I didn't realize what it meant that Ange found that stuffed lion (Sakutarou) in a storehouse and could give it to Maria... because Rosa lied that it was handmade, it was just a normally manufactured doll. Prolly one of the worst mothers in fiction lol.

    You kinda forget that this stuff is possible when they're accomplices/working together. Battler was working with EVERYONE to fool Erika, hence why they could "see" both Shannon and Kanon. Ofc it's just a fantasy scene here, it prolly was nothing but Sayo deciding for the Shannon persona.
     
  9. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    Yeah, I wasn't really noting a lot of things, and there's a whole lot of distractions going on. To think I completely missed something XD

    One of the main things that interfered with my reasoning was that I couldn't understand how the games worked. The games are basically all stories/fiction Sayo created and sent out as message bottles. By extension, I suppose anyone that understood her game could then make his/her own version. Naturally the possibility are endless. However, I thought the games held some sort of meaning with each other...well they sorta do, but their workings are fundamentally different. Sayo could have Eva as her accomplice in this game, and next game is someone else entirely, or no one at all. I spent so much time trying to even understand how exactly this was happening and why it was possible. In retrospect, I probably would have performed better if I didn't let myself get overtaken by everything happening. I suppose Lambda and Bern then must be some current time people who thoroughly understand Bern's game? Same for Aurora (hers is a bit more obvious I guess).

    Yes, if I entered each game with an open mind, believing that anyone could be the culprit for a specific crime, It would have been easier to solve or make theories. The closed rooms wouldn't even be entirely unsolvable as well. I kept thinking there was a constant culprit (though technically Sayo is the constant culprit), but I imagined the same person doing the killings again and again. Man, I feel seriously one-upped XD. They did a good job of keeping things difficult while also providing subtle hints here and there. It's just like an actual magic trick...you distract your opponent then perform the trick, show them and leave them completely dazzled XD

    Well, I'll keep playing for now XD
     
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  10. niichan

    niichan BB

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    Well I underestimated Umineko, so I never really made notes or tried to seriously connect the dots... because let's be honest, almost every game or movie/manga/whatever spells out the truth for you. It's something I really appreciate about the Visual Novel, it gives a great amount of smaller and bigger hints, but not much is outright presented to you on a silver platter. Before the manga was serialized, the only few concrete answers were given through a small amount of interviews with the author, so back then a lot was left to your own speculation. Some stuff still is, like the never 100% confirmed original gender of Sayo.

    It's a huge theme of Umineko, maybe it's biggest actually, that almost everything depends on your own interpretation of things. You are free to imagine whatever you want, as long as it's not a 100% given fact. Even then, is there something you could say is the undiluted, objective 100% truth? Who can say that hiding a candy below a cup isn't magic? The problem is that as adults we want to have logical explanations for everything, and through that lots of stuff loses all of it's charm or our potential happiness. As a kid we would likely be as fascinated as Maria by such a simple thing, as adults we would scoff at such a pathetic little trick. Stuff like that xD but I'm rambling, you go and enjoy Episode 8. It was a very fitting and great conclusion for me, so I hope that's what it will be for you too. And yes, some more conrete answers are coming as well :p EP8 actually has a lot of fun stuff, and two endings as well, so better save when you're given two choices (though that happens when the ep is almost over, so no worries).

    And yes, the games are fictional stories made up by Sayo, though in the Metaverse they ofc happen for real. With that I mean that the whole duel with Battler vs Beato and everything did happen, it's just on another plane that has nothing to do with our "reality". But I had the same problem as you, I thought it would always be the same, that each game has different accomplices didn't cross my mind xD Umineko really plays with your expectations in a lot of ways. Once you're done with EP8 I can link you to a site that has the "objective truth" for every game, as far as we know.

    As for Lambda and Bern, they really are nothing but witches. Well they are, in a way, related to Ryukishi's (Umineko author) other work that he wrote before - Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. To explain the exact connection would be too difficult and potentially spoilery, so you probably would need to read Higurashi to understand their part a bit better xD Aurora is left a bit vague lol, you can ignore her whole witch part and say she's just a person who figured it all out, or that she's both, or that she figured out everything bc she's a high witch... we get a somewhat more concrete answer, but that's in EP8, so no spoilers from me :p
     
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  11. Purity of Magi

    Purity of Magi Registered User

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    Sorry @Holt just saw your notification today since I just logged in on MH today. xd Anyway, I am very busy irl that I have barely the time to do the things I wanna do and to read your posts and possible reply to them ofc. I will try to check them whenever I can find the freetime for it unless Niichan has already replied on your post(s) (which he mostly do). >_<;
     
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  12. Holt

    Holt Iron Survivor

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    Oho! I remember someone almost destroying me for afk...kidding obviously XD. Hang in there .

    Yeah Nii has replied to most, I'm almost done as well, and I do understand a lot of things now. Just gotta finish EP.8 now
    --- Double Post Merged, May 27, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Original Post Date: May 21, 2018 ---
    @niichan @Purity of Magi
    Finally, my Umi Vn journey is complete. It took so long :bored and sometimes it dragged a bit/had some undesirable outcomes, but in the end, it truly was spectacular. Now for my thoughts

    First Toya=Battler was a very nice touch, but this one I actually saw coming. Well initially, I thought toya was ange, however, numerous things didn't fit. First, Toya was found on the road, initially I thought that might be because Ange actually jumped, and survived though with brain damage, however, that didn't make sense. No way she would survive a jump at that height, secondly, it would have been the guards who picked her up assuming she survived instead of Ikuko (Aurora). So, it had to be someone else, and as I kept playing Ep.8, there really were so many hints towards Battler being alive. Well not being alive, but at least surviving rokkenjimma. Also, when it was mentioned that toya had knowledge of mystery novels, I found that odd because that fit battler more than ange. And the fact that toya's words were never voiced too. If it was Ange, why not say let her speak. It's just like with yasu
    • First there are the games themselves. I recall I once asked how these games could possibly be happening. Now, I'd say it's simply Toya reading the message bottles, and conversing with Beatrice (imagination), while trying to figure out the games. In a sense, it isn't much different that what Shannon/Gaap were doing earlier.
    • Second, Battler never dies in any of the games. Although, in retrospect, we could probably say this was shannon simply never killing her beloved, but it was strange indeed. This point isn't really a strong indication of anything though
    • Third was the fact that battler could even reach a truth about the game/Beatrice. I believe this was battler reading the bottled stories, and eventually solving the mystery. It goes without saying that if Battler was already dead in 1986, then it's impossible for him to reach the truth no matter what.
    • Fourth (let's call this a mix of other things) but at certain points battler was at a forefront where it shouldn't have been possible. He and ange reached the noble city of books, the fact that there were two bells couldn't have been a coincidence. Also, why did Battler know of the single truth (referring to Eva's diary) and why was his game focused on preserving this (side objective I know but still). Battler is also one of those actively controlling their piece (even before GM). Also, there was too much emphasis on Ange believing someone survived. From a game perspective, there would be no need of placing so much emphasis if it was completely impossible.
    Well the only thing that was off was why he never visited ange, initially my theory was that he survived but then died/was stranded later and never got home, however, there were indications that he at least survived. We saw Toya regain his memories, so that threw me off. However, I did manage to figure it out mostly. Also, I solved bern's game where Battler, Kyrie and Rudolf were culprits (albeit with the help of hints XD). Battler being Kyrie's actual son is something else I didn't see coming, although I completely forget about the time he choked when he tried to declare with red that he's asumu's son. But once Rudolf mentioned it, it made sense.

    So Aurora is Ikuko, Dlanor, WIll, Cornelia, Gertrude apparently are real people too? But seems bern is a cat, Lamba is? a toy? and Erika might be real too. I know you said they operate at some higher level thing, but I don't believe that haha XD

    Overall, I like the end. Both ends. However, what really is the truth? I mentioned earlier, but seems what Bern showed Ange bout her parents being the culprits was one of many truths ( I recall I said back then that Bern didn't finish the statement which was off). However, it does seem like that's actually the closest fit? Or maybe it's really something else? The mansion really did blow up...maybe Eva solved the riddle, got the gold, and then accidentally set of the bomb? However, we're told that Battler was told to take the underground passage...so if Battler was told, why not others? The Kyrie/Rudolf theory seems more plausible tbh. Also, since now we know Toya recovered his memories, does that mean that though he survived, he wasn't completely sure what happened? Else why would he get deceived by Beato in the games? If he knew the actual truth, then he could have won Beato's games easier (though maybe not figure out that shannon=kanon=beatrice). Something is off, what's the actual truth? You mentioned before but don't tell me the game never explicitly opens the cat box?

    Also, in the final scene, did Battler and Shannon actually get away? Was that simply an illusion or shannon was actually with him but killed herself? Some events are a bit confusing tbh.

    Anyway, I really liked the reunion between siblings. It was quite touching after all the tragedies and years that had passed. Plus a nice touch with Ange reviving the fukkin house and redecorating it as the Rokkenjimma hall. At the end, I suppose Battler is hallucinating again? Things really aren't very clear cur in the VN.

     
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  13. niichan

    niichan BB

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    no worries, I will answer you a bit later :p
     
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