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Special Move Teni Muhō No Kiwami (Pinnacle of Perfection)

kaibaman

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so far the only two that can used Teni Muhō No Kiwami (Pinnacle of Perfection) are Ryoma and Tezuka, but what about ryoma's brother ryoga do you guys think reached Teni Muhō No Kiwam?
 

Fuji Shusuke

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Can you stop making pointless threads?

And no, I don't think Ryoga achieved TMnK.
 

Hardy

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Can you stop making pointless threads?

And no, I don't think Ryoga achieved TMnK.
Let him be lol.

Back to topic, no, I don´t think Ryoga reached TMnK.
 

-Ken-

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You knows that most of these thread can easily go into Hangout thread, that's where you talk about general stuff. There's no need for new thread.

I also don't think Ryoga get PoP. Doesn't Chitose say the only person to reach it before is Nanjirou?
 

Phantron

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You knows that most of these thread can easily go into Hangout thread, that's where you talk about general stuff. There's no need for new thread.

I also don't think Ryoga get PoP. Doesn't Chitose say the only person to reach it before is Nanjirou?
That's about as useful as saying the legendary Super Saiyan only appears once in whatever years. The upper tier high schoolers don't even seem all that impressed with Tezuka hitting that level, and presumably they know what that is. Synchro was something only the top professional double players ought to have and by NPOT it's about as common as Muga.

Looking at the characterization G1-5 are certainly at a level where they could learn PoP. Whether they actually have it or not is anyone's guess.

---------- Post added at 01:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 AM ----------

Actually if you want to be super technical and by the book, the only requirement to learn PoP is that you enjoy playing tennis. In fact given the 'have fun' aspect Tezuka is one of the least likely guy to ever learn it, and the relative nobodies in fodder school are far more likely to learn PoP compared to a powerhouse tennis school where having a death march training camp is very common.

Of course presumably you've to be at some base level + heritage to be able to learn it or we'll start seeing random guys in St. Rudolph use PoP but Ryoga certainly meets the base level + heritage requirement.

Actually the whole notion of 'have fun' implies people who make a big deal about losing should never come close to learning PoP, which would include Ryoma too. Nanjirou specifically said playing conservatively trying to win is what keeps people away from PoP. By that token Akutagawa is definitely the person who is closest to PoP since he had a ton of fun even while getting spanked 6-1 by Fuji.
 
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Fuji Shusuke

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Yeah, in one of the Pair Puri's (I forgot which one), it explained Muga and its doors. Apparently, Akutagawa and Kintarou can achieve it.
 

Kaoz

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Yeah, in one of the Pair Puri's (I forgot which one), it explained Muga and its doors. Apparently, Akutagawa and Kintarou can achieve it.
The fifth one. Also to be more precise, those two are the closest to it. Technically anybody can get there.
 

Hardy

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ashore

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thanks for the info. I didnt know jirou had a portential to get TnK. I always assume though you'd have to go through the other doors of muga first. so i would think kirihara would be faster to open Tnk than jirou or kintaro
 

Phantron

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Nanjirou flat out says everyone can have PoP and denies the fact it's related to heritage. There's no such thing as 'potential to learn PoP' because everyone is at PoP state if you truly enjoy tennis and people lose PoP when they try to put winning above fun. Since he's the only person who actually knows what TMnY is you can't really argue against that logic. You don't need the first 2 doors or even Muga, or the statement 'everyone is in PoP when they first learned tennis' wouldn't make sense.

Of course with the way manga is drawn it's still probably tied to some base level + some learning, because otherwise you'd just have random new members to the tennis club using PoP and start spanking Yukimura and Tezuka (who both clearly view tennis as some kind of self-sacrificing ordeal and is about as far away from 'have fun playing tennis' as it gets).

Akutagawa is clearly the #1 candidate for PoP by this explanation, as it's hard to get more 'have fun' than getting spanked 6-1 and still want another rematch. Kintarou seems like a pretty good canidate for this too. Ryoma strikes me more like a sore loser as opposed to always having fun, but at least he doesn't view tennis as some kind of death march sacrificial behavior, and I guess you can argue he certainly have fun spanking his opponents. That said if you include 'have fun' to include 'have fun even while losing' that pretty much shuts out everyone but Akutagawa and Kintarou on the remotely decent tiers.
 

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although there's no set rules where you have to open the other 2 doors to get to final TnK,

i'd think that it would be easier if you had the doors open first and be one step away, rather than have that fun tennis attitude,
and not opened any doors.

a little kid age 12 who loves playing tennis could theoretically get TnK vs other pot players that dont have it?
just opinion of course.
 

Phantron

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although there's no set rules where you have to open the other 2 doors to get to final TnK,

i'd think that it would be easier if you had the doors open first and be one step away, rather than have that fun tennis attitude,
and not opened any doors.

a little kid age 12 who loves playing tennis could theoretically get TnK vs other pot players that dont have it?
just opinion of course.
The problem is that opening even one door generally takes you very far away from the 'have fun' attitude. For example, we know Chitose opened his door by attaching random machines to read his brain waves and push himself to the limit. Obviously that's not having fun. It's unclear how Tezuka opened his door but he's also about as far away from 'have fun' as it gets. Ryoma might've had fun opening his two doors, so you get 1/3 had fun opening the first doors while 2/3 did not in the limited sample.

Given the explanation, my guess is that TnK is not meant to be invinicible, so a beginner with TnK will still get spanked by any decent POT middle schooler, for example. Nanjirou specifically said that people forgot the feeling where you enjoyed tennis even while getting spanked. Given the way POT works, it probably goes like this:

You start playing tennis in TnK.

Since everyone around you is some kind of superhuman you still get spanked.

So you decide to get better at tennis by learning from someone better than you or join a club, and yet it's clear that most tennis clubs in POT are really death march camps. Even Ryoma, who learned TMnK, resented having to run a marathon to replace his strings (Inui picked an especially far away shop to build his endurance).

You attempt to model your style after some known good player:

A. Power player - Your life involves trying to maim someone and you're likely to get maimed too. That's probably not very fun.

B. Tezuka - His powerful moves are all self-multilation moves, probably not very fun.

C. Sanada/Yukimura - Their whole philosophy is around winning at all costs.

D. Atobe - Another guy doing whatever it takes to win. He changed his style simply because he believe it's more effective at winning.

E. Shiraishi - He said that Bible Tennis is very boring but winning comes first, so no go there.

F. Fuji - Fuji lacks motivation to play seriously against weak players. Unlike others he at least has fun playing the good players, but he's always shown to be disinterested against weaker opponents, so he hasn't totally grasped the fun part.

Almost everyone you'd use for a role model is almost certainly to take you very far from 'have fun' so you'd never get back to TnK again. Fuji is about the only guy who can even get you halfway on the right track.

So I can see why nobody would ever think 'have fun' is the key in the world of POT. Drinking Inui's special drinks alone should be able to suck all the fun out of someone.
 

Kaoz

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^I do agree with the above for the most part. TnK probably isn't meant to be invincible or anything of the sort, so even if a beginner would get it, he wouldn't go around beating people left and right, simply because he can't play tennis very well.

The point where I disagree is that I don't feel Tokugawa was so far above Ryoma at that time that he could have beaten TnK!Ryoma that easily, that's about it.
 

LetalHawk

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^I do agree with the above for the most part. TnK probably isn't meant to be invincible or anything of the sort, so even if a beginner would get it, he wouldn't go around beating people left and right, simply because he can't play tennis very well.

The point where I disagree is that I don't feel Tokugawa was so far above Ryoma at that time that he could have beaten TnK!Ryoma that easily, that's about it.
Probably, Echizen with TNK playing all out would have won, but what good would have been that? It's better that he lost in order to boost amazingly his base skills and improve more. Now he's able to rally 10 balls with Tokugawa and finish a training session with him perfectly, while the first time got completely owned.
 

Kaoz

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What point are you trying to argue?
 

Ninomiya

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@Phantron, while its true ''Everybody can access TnK'',
What is the likelihood that we will see everyone use it is the point.
What is the likelihood that we will see HSers use it.

Byoudouin? Who floored Tokugawa from a seriously long distance for fun? Really?
Tokugawa? Who trains extremely hard everyday, not to join the 1st Stringers, but to simply defeat Byoudouin ''even if he dies''?

With Akutagawa and Kintaro. What is the likelihood we will see Akutagawa use TnK?

And to say it doesn't provide much of a boost like you did in a different thread,
Then why is technology required to see serves?

I won't rule it out for Tanegashima, Oni, Irie and Ryoga, but it's unlikely we will see it.
 

Hardy

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@Phantron, while its true ''Everybody can access TnK'',
What is the likelihood that we will see HSers use it.
They probably have Black Aura, Wild Aura ( I don't really know how's that one called lol) or a "Something that sounds cool" Aura. If Kintarou doesn't get TnK (jirou won't get it, he's a forgotten bro :( ) then nobody will get it.
 

Ninomiya

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They probably have Black Aura, Wild Aura ( I don't really know how's that one called lol) or a "Something that sounds cool" Aura. If Kintarou doesn't get TnK (jirou won't get it, he's a forgotten bro :( ) then nobody will get it.
Wild Aura isn't on the level of Black Aura or TnK from what we have been shown.

Ishida Tetsu, Kamio and Tachibana recieved significant boosts from Wild Aura but it didnt change that much.
Whilst Black Aura and TnK gave them a dramatically big boost when they were used in the matches.

Also, look at all the players we have seen. We've chiselled our way down to anticipating No.s 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 + A match with SERIOUS Tokugawa and Irie.
That is 8 HSers left from Japan. I doubt more than half of them have TnK or an aura of that kind.

So TnK is just that rare. Barely anyone can get in on demand like Tezuka can.
 

Phantron

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There's really two scenarios, within and without plot devices.

Within plot devices obviously only the few chosen can use TnK no matter what Nanjirou says, because otherwise we'd be hearing about the reign of Akutagawa now as he's far more ideal candidate for TnK than Ryoma. But, within plot device, it's clear all the top characters get effects that are almost as good. For example Black Aura does the same tech-negation property that was the biggest advantage of TnK (breaks yips) and probably has a very high stat boost. So while Tokugawa probably won't have PoP he probably has own Aura that's almost as good as TnK so given the initial difference in stats, there's no reason why he can't spank a TnK Ryoma.

TnK is no doubt the strongest buff effect but let's not forget buff effects are really, really common in POT. Atobe increasing his concentration, for example, is a buff effect (he can break Ryoma's Tezuka Zone when he increases his concentration). Even if a top tier character doesn't have a named aura/buff, it's clear that merely by 'getting serious' they accomplish the same thing as a lesser buff. Of course 'getting serious' is never going to be as good as TnK, but I think you're looking more like the difference between TnK and Black Aura. There's no doubt TnK is better than any buff but I doubt it's unfathomably better than Black Aura.

Without plot device, TnK isn't really anything special simply due to the fact that without plot device, everyone can have TnK!

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

They probably have Black Aura, Wild Aura ( I don't really know how's that one called lol) or a "Something that sounds cool" Aura. If Kintarou doesn't get TnK (jirou won't get it, he's a forgotten bro :( ) then nobody will get it.
I'm thinking Fuji is a good candidate for that since he's always trying to catch up to Tezuka.

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

@Phantron, while its true ''Everybody can access TnK'',
What is the likelihood that we will see everyone use it is the point.
What is the likelihood that we will see HSers use it.

Byoudouin? Who floored Tokugawa from a seriously long distance for fun? Really?
Tokugawa? Who trains extremely hard everyday, not to join the 1st Stringers, but to simply defeat Byoudouin ''even if he dies''?

With Akutagawa and Kintaro. What is the likelihood we will see Akutagawa use TnK?

And to say it doesn't provide much of a boost like you did in a different thread,
Then why is technology required to see serves?

I won't rule it out for Tanegashima, Oni, Irie and Ryoga, but it's unlikely we will see it.
When has Tezuka did anything 'for fun' except for the one game against Yamato? In terms of the 'for fun' requirement, if Tezuka can meet it then everyone else can too because he's about the most serious character in POT as it gets.

So far as the requiring technology bit, ignoring that it happened in POT and NPOT had a massive rebalancing of powers, Atobe needs to use his x-ray visions to see Mach Serve. I think his x-ray vision is more advanced than just rewinding/slow motion, since it seems to be able to see the future somehow (presumably he used his eyes to predict where the ball is going so he can actually return it). So 'requiring technology to see' might have been a big deal in POT but at least Atobe has progressed beyond technology by the time NPOT comes around.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

As an aside I don't think TnK can be used as a trump card once you learned it because it's activation is very unique.

Let's say you can use TnK at will, so you're losing and then you use TnK to turn it around like what happens in almost every POT match. However, your thought process would be something like: "Oh no I'm losing, better use TnK!" This means you're relying on TnK to win, which defies the criteria to use TnK. I suppose it might be possible to think: "This game was fun but it'd be MORE fun with TnK" but I'm going to assume you can't just lie to yourself. Besides, it's shown characters with TnK can easily control their power level so there's no need to hold back. Once you have TnK, it should always be on because TnK clearly has no maintenance cost (it seems to recover stamina, if anything) and no side effects, and you can power down as needed if you don't want to just totally blow out your opponent. The whole notion of switching TnK on/off already implies you're using it as some kind of tool for winning which means you won't be able to use it if you tried to do that.

So I don't buy the argument "Ryoma can just use TnK" because it's something he should either always have or never have.
 
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