Discussion The Outside World

Arjuna

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I will say we will witness corruption in the human society.

If you have read SNK you will understand what i am seeing.Maybe like the Military Police in SNK,in the human society who are corrupt and selfish.They may try to hand over the children to the Demons if they cross over to that side.
 

Belserion

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So, any predictions about the humans' society (on the humans side)?

The promise was made centuries ago, and some humans were left as gifts. This is the information Sung-Joo relayed to us, and for now we should assume this to be true. However, this doesn't mean it's common knowledge on the human side. History is what is written, and really I could see it going a few ways. Here's a few scenario's that could come to be...
  1. The human gifts are a cover up. For political reasons, this makes sense. In this scenario, I could picture William Minerva being a part of a group who know the truth, and need the kids from Neverland as evidence (they'd need more than just the kids I presume, but the kids would be the smoking gun).
  2. The human gifts are known to all. This means they live with the shame of what their predeccesors did, and presume that all the humans were eaten after the great war. Then they find out the kids are alive somehow and things move from there.
  3. Perhaps a more thought provoking scenario is that the human gifts are known to all, and human farming is known to all (which niichan suggested in the OP). If we think to our own histories as humans (individually and as a society), much has been done in the past that we have to live with but cannot change. The humans in Neverland, under this scenario, have a chance to make up for the past. I do find this unlikely based on centuries of neglect.

Personally, I think option 1 is most likely. An alternative to the first scenario, in regards to WM, is that he's a part of the government and is rescuing the kids to prove to the public there are humans on the demons side... so they must go to war (this can fit in the second scenario as well).

Why go to war? I have no basis for it so far, but we go to war for resources and land. In this manga, farming has been shown on the demon side. For us, cattle and crops take up a heap of land. The Promise halved it. And from what we've seen on the demon side, the only structures we've seen are at HQ... which could mean the rest of it is 'untouched'. Well, Sung-Joo says there is nothing but wilderness. And judging from the toys/items Ray procured, their human industry seems to be similar to ours. So this could work out too imo.

Didn't mean for this to be such a wall...
I hope it's option 1 as well. I already have a low opinion of the human society from Song's story but it was a long time ago. I'd say it's the "dirty secret" of a select few. As time went by people probably forgot about the other side since I don't think that knowledge is something the ancestors would want to pass down to their children. So like you said this is probably where Minerva comes in, trying to bring about a revolution to correct their mistake but of course he needs proof. Enter the kids with brand numbers on their necks like livestock and horror stories to rally the humans.
 

Brandish

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I hope it's option 1 as well. I already have a low opinion of the human society from Song's story but it was a long time ago. I'd say it's the "dirty secret" of a select few. As time went by people probably forgot about the other side since I don't think that knowledge is something the ancestors would want to pass down to their children. So like you said this is probably where Minerva comes in, trying to bring about a revolution to correct their mistake but of course he needs proof. Enter the kids with brand numbers on their necks like livestock and horror stories to rally the humans.
Yea I think if it works out like that it's easier to head back and start a war. I can't really see Emma not following through with a rescue attempt. She may fail, but she will try. So they need the humans to be backing them and the revolution is simple enough. Unless there's another way Emma can get the firepower required to breach and rescue kids from plantations. Atm I'm assuming we go all the way to the human side because it's the easier route... but this manga has twisted things many times so I'm not holding onto this too much xD

Are you being a little harsh on the humans here? :derp I am with you on that, you can't leave people behind as food. Just they might have been pushed to a point where the war wore them down so much that this was acceptable. If that's the case then I'd feel sorry for them too.




2 points I forgot to bring up before are...
  • Would there be demons on the human side? E.g in a Zoo, or trained in the military
  • When they fought the demons centuries ago, humanity would have united for this. Would there just be one country?
 

deyna

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  • When they fought the demons centuries ago, humanity would have united for this. Would there just be one country?
i think there would be quite a few countries, mostly powerful countries which could stand up against the demons in the past.
 

Belserion

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Are you being a little harsh on the humans here? :derp I am with you on that, you can't leave people behind as food. Just they might have been pushed to a point where the war wore them down so much that this was acceptable. If that's the case then I'd feel sorry for them too.
No. That was me being nice to them:hmph And if the war wore them down I hope it's the same with the demons. The fact that there was a truce in the first place means no side was actually winning. This is why it bothers me that it appears the demons got the better end of the deal. Even in a panel during Song's story we saw humans fleeing after the truce was decided upon. Why would you need to flee if there's a truce?
2 points I forgot to bring up before are...
  • Would there be demons on the human side? E.g in a Zoo, or trained in the military
  • When they fought the demons centuries ago, humanity would have united for this. Would there just be one country?
They better have demons on their side. Not that I'm advocating for a reverse of the current situation with demon farms, but something to show that the humans weren't completely outplayed. So far it's looking more like "give us what we want and we leave you alone" from the demons end rather than a truce. Adding that the humans are supplying all these toys and clothes and books to keep up the facade of human civilisation on the other side, it's all pointing to an advantage for the demons. I'm beginning to understand Minervas need for a revolution. Something is wrong here....besides the obvious:notsure

As for one country, if the world was split in two then it would make more sense if they all just stayed United considering the geography got 50% smaller. Or maybe they got divided into districts like in the hunger games:hmm
 

Brandish

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i think there would be quite a few countries, mostly powerful countries which could stand up against the demons in the past.
Yea, I can see there being a few countries too, but with less conflict between them than we have.

It'd be interesting if there's multiple countries, and they each have to provide 'border control' for the paths to the demon world. Idk why, but I'd like to know how something like this would be written.

This is why it bothers me that it appears the demons got the better end of the deal. Even in a panel during Song's story we saw humans fleeing after the truce was decided upon. Why would you need to flee if there's a truce?
True, and that panel you mentioned is something I overlooked. I'll just concede right now :nod

With this in mind, it could be that there is a hole in Sung-Joo's story. A parting gift might be what he is told and is considered historical fact... but the truth is demons caught some stray humans just as the truce was being called. How would this feel from a narrative point of view? Might be a letdown.

They better have demons on their side. Not that I'm advocating for a reverse of the current situation with demon farms, but something to show that the humans weren't completely outplayed. So far it's looking more like "give us what we want and we leave you alone" from the demons end rather than a truce. Adding that the humans are supplying all these toys and clothes and books to keep up the facade of human civilisation on the other side, it's all pointing to an advantage for the demons. I'm beginning to understand Minervas need for a revolution. Something is wrong here....besides the obvious:notsure
Those demons don't look tasty at all xD They'd need to be fattened up at the very least.

Well if toys and the like are getting in, the demons are buying these somehow. I doubt the humans keep giving it up so easily (I am giving these guys a chance :hmph )
 

deyna

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we don't know how many human factions that work together with the demons to make hundreds of human farms. all of that wouldn't be possible without humans' help.. i'm starting to think some humans work with the demons with mutual purpose or some kind of deal was signed between them, away from human society's eyes/without human government's knowledge
 

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A few things have been added recently...
  • Another group "Poachers". They poach runaways. How different will they be to raiders? Or are they the same?
  • Going to another quadrant... A08-63.
  • The bunker at B06-32 has a live feed of some other location in the demon world.
We might must get more information about the human world through the archive. They've only scratched the surface so far.
 

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Another group "Poachers". They poach runaways. How different will they be to raiders? Or are they the same?
I think the poachers are also a group of escapees from a certain orphanage, which would explain how they got inside B-06-32 in the first place. Chances are that they probably have a pen of their own from Minerva as well, but unlike Emma and her group, they are an 'evil' group.
 

Brandish

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Chances are that they probably have a pen of their own from Minerva as well, but unlike Emma and her group, they are an 'evil' group.
Running with this scenario, the should also know B06-32 and possibly A08-63, so would you expect them to be waiting at the latter location once Emma, Ray and Baelish get there? Also, if they have a pen, why haven't they gotten to Baelish yet?

It'd be quite something if the poachers were escapees. It's probably a low chance. There is potential with this as it could show another side to humanity of Neverland - just what could cause a human escapee in this world to be a poacher?

Just going to bring up the image of that room...
  • Was Baelish locked in here by the poachers? I know he's insane, but with "HELP" written over and over - help him for what?
  • Under the bunk, "LIAR" is written. Is it possible that someone deceived Baelish maybe within HQ, helped with the escape, and they turned out to be a poacher?
 

Belserion

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I think the poachers are also a group of escapees from a certain orphanage, which would explain how they got inside B-06-32 in the first place. Chances are that they probably have a pen of their own from Minerva as well, but unlike Emma and her group, they are an 'evil' group.
Running with this scenario, the should also know B06-32 and possibly A08-63, so would you expect them to be waiting at the latter location once Emma, Ray and Baelish get there? Also, if they have a pen, why haven't they gotten to Baelish yet?

It'd be quite something if the poachers were escapees. It's probably a low chance. There is potential with this as it could show another side to humanity of Neverland - just what could cause a human escapee in this world to be a poacher?

Just going to bring up the image of that room...
  • Was Baelish locked in here by the poachers? I know he's insane, but with "HELP" written over and over - help him for what?
  • Under the bunk, "LIAR" is written. Is it possible that someone deceived Baelish maybe within HQ, helped with the escape, and they turned out to be a poacher?
Plot twist if Baelish is/was actually one of the poachers. It's honestly baffling how he's the only survivor. Let's say for arguments sake that he is the only surviving member of his group after the poachers attacked, why didn't they come back for him? Did he hide? Was it a one time attack and he hid so the poachers thought they'd gotten them all before moving on to another location (if they do indeed have a pen)? This wouldn't make much sense since it would be reasonable to assume that if they do have a pen they would keep going back occasionally to check for escapees.

However I can also understand if they're a mercenary group and probably only check the locations when news of a break out of the farms occur. It was mentioned in the initial discussions that the word "poachers" was crossed out which could mean they've been killed, but it's really hard for me to believe that it was Baelish who took them out. He seems like a bit of a coward with the way he rants/whines and also naive when he didn't expect Emma to aim low. A bit like Malfoy, all bark and no bite even when he's trying to be threatening lol.

The poachers could be humans working with the demons. A bit like the Mamas and scientists. We know there was a signal sent out when Emma and the others broke out, it could be a case where these poachers that escaped a long time ago made a deal with the demons to hand over their exceptional comrades for their own freedom and have been working with the demons ever since. We can't just assume every group that escaped were like our current group, a close knit family. Some will do anything for survival. So in this instance we can for example say the likes of Don and Gilda, or the girl with the pigtails and some of the younger kids would give up Ray and Emma and become the demons underlings. It's a form of freedom and this way they don't become food. Maybe that's what Baelish did hence all the guilt. If he's not a poacher, maybe he made a deal with them.
 

Brandish

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Lol if he's a poacher then all this insanity he's shown so far is only scratching the surface.

Yea he's very much the boasting type, and I wouldn't be surprised if he hid like you said. It actually makes more sense if he was the only survivor due to a 'hiding' scenario, as opposed to him being the toughest/smartest of the escapees (ie Ray). Assuming he's telling the truth of course. If these poachers work for demons I'd bet they took some of the escapees alive. Maybe all of them, and left Bae alive coz his scores were real bad or something.

It's quite interesting to have several known groups that exist outside demon control. Wanderers (like Musica), Raiders, Poachers, and human escapees. There could be more.

Also, are the poachers humans or demons?
 

Belserion

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Also, are the poachers humans or demons?
I figured human because wouldn't he just call them demons? Unless"demon" isn't the universal term and they're called different things by different people. Like in the Walking Dead some zombies are called "walkers" by some or "biters" by others. If the poachers are demons and he tried to hide wouldn't they have sniffed him out?
 

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I guess it does depend on how things are named in the demon world. Demons are the top race, so I would think they'd have titles much like we do; and humans would be called 'humans' like we call animals 'animals'... if that makes sense. He is human though so this might not be how Baelish says it. Also I get the feeling that the poachers are human to mirror the raiders who I think are demons.

And true, he wouldn't have been able to hide from a demon, no less kill one.

Also, Bae had a gun too. I wonder how he got that.
 

Arjuna

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I am thinking these "Poachers" are basically human traffickers. They come from the human side and capture them to make slaves.
 

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What about Norman's "plan" from the context of the outside world.

(i) New information


In chapter 39 the kids found themselves outside for the first time, and Ray noted how different it was compared to his readings.



With this reveal in 120, added to the info in 39, it's looming possible that the whole ecosystem has been altered by demon biology.

(ii) Demon biodiversity (lol)

As seen in the spoilers, evolution is for 'all kinds of forms'. So on all levels - from unicellular organisms to complex animals/plants - there'll be a demon version, possibly.

(iii) Spread

There are a few pieces of information regarding this:
- demons are heavily populated near water;
- Song Juu said there is 'vast wilderness'

Demonology may have dispersed with the movement and connectivity of water. Obviously the animal versions can go wherever. The forests seem to just hit an edge, then nothing.

(iv) Extermination

Norman has essentially declared genocide, so given i-iii how far is his actual plan? Just the animal/human looking demons? If he means all, then how do you wipe out organisms of all life forms? What do you think??

We can assume they have to tackle the more complex beings through war, they can't be fooled.

Then, what about the plant/fungi/bacteria/etc versions?

Let's say at Lamba they've been studying this, and have the wonder drug/poison for it all.

From (iii) they could plan to dose entire watercourses with the drug. Which might not be enough, but a start. What about microbes in the soil? Is manufacturing enough is possible?

The drug would be selectively toxic, but what else would it kill off? Is it believable that it takes out demon biology only, or that too convenient??

If the above is an issue, what effect would it have on a large scale?

e.g if you took out all the plant demons, what affect would this have on oxygen globally (human world too)?

There's obviously much more you could list. Just putting down a few. I believe the environmental impact would be immense for complete eradication.

It's also obviously more feasible to 'manage' the environment after you wipe out the sophisticated demons, than to go full genocide.
 
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