Discussion The Purpose of Zoro

[thedude]

Mihawk isn't under Shanks though, as far as we know. That's the main difference between the two, but there's no reason why Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy can't be rivals, especially for fun or out of brotherly rivalry.

Sure he's under Shanks. Shanks is one of the 4 strongest characters, able to compete against monsters like Kaido and White Beard without having a devil fruit of his own. When Mihawk is in front of White Beard, all he can do is throw a slash attack and say "i want to measure how far he is from me in strength", and then it's blocked by one of White Beards crew. Shanks had no problem casually strolling onto White Beards ship and wasn't afraid when White Beard took a swing at him. I think that shows the difference in their power.

Also remember that he was a rival with Shanks well before he became a Yonko, he stopped fighting him when Shanks lost his arm, when he didn't seem to be a "huge" pirate yet. That's 13 years where Shanks becomes much much stronger to the point the World Government pisses their pants when he and his tiny crew join a battle.

They were friendly rivals in swordsmanship (we know it was friendly because Shanks doesn't have any injuries from those battles), but there is more to strength than skill with a sword. I'm sure Mihawk is a better swordsman than Kaido too, but Kaido likely beats him in a tough fight. And the same is true of Shanks.

I don't think One Piece is a "power level" manga like "Dragon Ball" is, but it still does have power levels to explain the makeup of the world, and in the context of Oda's story, it doesn't work if there is just some dude who is as strong or stronger than the Yonko. If Mihawk is Yonko level, he has no need to work for the world government as a Shichibukai.

 

[M3J]

As in, Mihawk isn't in the same crew as Shanks. That was a long post for nothing.

OP isn't necessarily a power level manga because unlike DBZ, it has different elements of combat to it, like Naruto. There's haki, devil fruit, speed, and so much more to take into account. It's why I can argue that Zoro could beat Luffy, just because he uses swords and can use haki, even if Zoro would lose to Doflamingo. Let's face it though, Luffy would have too if Gear 4 didn't give him the shield he needed to break out of the same string move that bound Sanji, who doesn't have that advantage.

 

[thedude]

As in, Mihawk isn't in the same crew as Shanks. That was a long post for nothing.

OP isn't necessarily a power level manga because unlike DBZ, it has different elements of combat to it, like Naruto. There's haki, devil fruit, speed, and so much more to take into account. It's why I can argue that Zoro could beat Luffy, just because he uses swords and can use haki, even if Zoro would lose to Doflamingo. Let's face it though, Luffy would have too if Gear 4 didn't give him the shield he needed to break out of the same string move that bound Sanji, who doesn't have that advantage.

lol, derp! Well, it serves a purpose for anyone saying Mihawk >= Shanks! But i see what you are saying now.

(and let's hope it doesn't end like Naruto...the last arc just dragged even worse than these recent OP arcs. The "great" war lasted 25% of the entire manga, and it really didn't need that much time for the story it told...off topic, lol).

 

[M3J]

It probably will, most long mangas tend to end horribly. Wish we knew just how strong Roger was, and in comparison to Rayleigh, so we could get an idea of how strong Zoro is or could be compared to Luffy.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Wish we knew just how strong Roger was, and in comparison to Rayleigh, so we could get an idea of how strong Zoro is or could be compared to Luffy.

While there are characteristic parallels, doesn't mean they will be exact parallels. Luffy's strength doesn't need to correspond with Roger's strength anymore than Zoro needs to correspond with Rayleigh's strength.

All that is known is Luffy will eventually become the most powerful Pirate and Zoro will eventually become the World's Strongest Swordsman of this era.

As for how strong Roger was, we've essentially been told. He was as strong as Whitebeard. Also, makes sense Whitebeard was said to be the next ruler of the sea after Roger died since he was just as strong as him.

 

[King Moe]

While there are characteristic parallels, doesn't mean they will be exact parallels. Luffy's strength doesn't need to correspond with Roger's strength anymore than Zoro needs to correspond with Rayleigh's strength.

All that is known is Luffy will eventually become the most powerful Pirate and Zoro will eventually become the World's Strongest Swordsman of this era.

As for how strong Roger was, we've essentially been told. He was as strong as Whitebeard. Also, makes sense Whitebeard was said to be the next ruler of the sea after Roger died since he was just as strong as him.

That's Whitebeard though they are talking about, not Rayleigh. I don't see Zoro at that lvl and status. Zoro will be one of the strongest in the series, but not equal to Luffy. The one who be his 'Whitebeard' is probably Kidd and with Law too meaning could be stronger than Zoro now. Maybe even the of the series.

As Zoro will be Mihawk/Rayleigh of his time after all.

 

[afromarco005]

Sure he's under Shanks. Shanks is one of the 4 strongest characters, able to compete against monsters like Kaido and White Beard without having a devil fruit of his own. When Mihawk is in front of White Beard, all he can do is throw a slash attack and say "i want to measure how far he is from me in strength", and then it's blocked by one of White Beards crew. Shanks had no problem casually strolling onto White Beards ship and wasn't afraid when White Beard took a swing at him. I think that shows the difference in their power.

Also remember that he was a rival with Shanks well before he became a Yonko, he stopped fighting him when Shanks lost his arm, when he didn't seem to be a "huge" pirate yet. That's 13 years where Shanks becomes much much stronger to the point the World Government pisses their pants when he and his tiny crew join a battle.

They were friendly rivals in swordsmanship (we know it was friendly because Shanks doesn't have any injuries from those battles), but there is more to strength than skill with a sword. I'm sure Mihawk is a better swordsman than Kaido too, but Kaido likely beats him in a tough fight. And the same is true of Shanks.

I don't think One Piece is a "power level" manga like "Dragon Ball" is, but it still does have power levels to explain the makeup of the world, and in the context of Oda's story, it doesn't work if there is just some dude who is as strong or stronger than the Yonko. If Mihawk is Yonko level, he has no need to work for the world government as a Shichibukai.

So you mean that in the meantime Shanks grew exponentially and for some reason Mihawk a guy who seeks stronger ennemies and is challenged by the best swordsmen of the world all the time stayed the same??

Shishibukai means nothing, BB was a shishibukai next thing you know he is a yonko... Also shishibukai are helping maintaining the world balance for a reason.

Concerning Mihawk working under the WG, he does not look like the type who is interested in the Worlds politics or ruling people or the world heck he doesnt even have a crew unless you count Perona.
On the contrary being a shishibukai helps him not having to be bothered by the marines or bountyhunters.

Besides his yonko title Shanks has nothing ...but his sword and he may be physically stronger or whatever but in a serious swords fight Mihawk will come out on top.

 

[M3J]

While there are characteristic parallels, doesn't mean they will be exact parallels. Luffy's strength doesn't need to correspond with Roger's strength anymore than Zoro needs to correspond with Rayleigh's strength.

All that is known is Luffy will eventually become the most powerful Pirate and Zoro will eventually become the World's Strongest Swordsman of this era.

As for how strong Roger was, we've essentially been told. He was as strong as Whitebeard. Also, makes sense Whitebeard was said to be the next ruler of the sea after Roger died since he was just as strong as him.

I doubt Luffy will become the most powerful pirate. And we have also been told that Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaidou, that he just got to their Poneglyphs and left. Usopp and others have also stated that fighting Yonkou wasn't necessary to become Pirate King. Roger likely became a ruler and/or received immense hype because he was the first one to reach Raftel and find One Piece. Otherwise it seemed Whitebeard and Roger were tied.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I doubt Luffy will become the most powerful pirate. And we have also been told that Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaidou, that he just got to their Poneglyphs and left. Usopp and others have also stated that fighting Yonkou wasn't necessary to become Pirate King. Roger likely became a ruler and/or received immense hype because he was the first one to reach Raftel and find One Piece. Otherwise it seemed Whitebeard and Roger were tied.

Luffy will be the most powerful if for no other reason other than this is shounen and the MC usually reaches heights not reached by previous generations.

I agree with HP.

While you dont need to defeat other Yonko, the process that Luffy is going through (actually fighting them) will put him above all others.

 

[M3J]

Again, I highly doubt that, especially when we've seen Luffy win not because of strength, but because of other factors as well. That doesn't take away anything from him, but most of his fights weren't just clean-cut victory where he overpowered his opponents. I'd mention Zoro possibly being above Luffy as well in the end, but no one here is ready to have that conversation.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Again, I highly doubt that, especially when we've seen Luffy win not because of strength, but because of other factors as well. That doesn't take away anything from him, but most of his fights weren't just clean-cut victory where he overpowered his opponents. I'd mention Zoro possibly being above Luffy as well in the end, but no one here is ready to have that conversation.

Because it's a nonstarter conversation.

Not a single Yonko Crew has a subordinate that is their equal. No Captain has been close to equal to their captain aside from Buggy's crew and that is a gag.

It's not that no is ready to have the conversation, it's just that it would be a waste of time.

It's no different than arguing that Katakuri is going to be above Luffy at the end of the manga, or Ussop lol.

It's just common sense not to have that discussion.

 

[M3J]

No it's not, you guys are dealing in absolute when there shouldn't be such absolute. Luffy's inability to do anything to Big Mom, supreme difficulty in fighting a henchman, and getting one-shot by Kaidou should tell us that Oda can always throw a curveball. I mean, Zoro's usually been so close to Luffy in power but at a disadvantage primarily because he's not a devil fruit user or has a rubber body, like against Enel and Lucci. We've even gotten explanations as to how Luffy usually had advantages.

inb4buttholesaccusemeofbeingzorofanboy

 

[Pirate Queen]

No it's not, you guys are dealing in absolute when there shouldn't be such absolute. Luffy's inability to do anything to Big Mom, supreme difficulty in fighting a henchman, and getting one-shot by Kaidou should tell us that Oda can always throw a curveball. I mean, Zoro's usually been so close to Luffy in power but at a disadvantage primarily because he's not a devil fruit user or has a rubber body, like against Enel and Lucci. We've even gotten explanations as to how Luffy usually had advantages.

inb4buttholesaccusemeofbeingzorofanboy

I know your not a zoro fan boy lol, we've debated enough to where I know your stances on much of One Piece.

Those weren't much of curve balls tho. If Luffy had done anything significant to Yonko everyone would be arguing that Luffy is way to power for it not even being close to the end of One Piece. We'd lose all anticipation for future battles. I can name dozens of manga that have similar moments

Alot of Luffy's progress is typical shounen. Name a shounen where the MC didnt finish as the strongest in verse? Be it a flashforward or what have you.

Whether Luffy has advantages or not, Luffy will remain stronger, and EoS will be shown to have surpassed his predecessors.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I doubt Luffy will become the most powerful pirate. And we have also been told that Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaidou, that he just got to their Poneglyphs and left. Usopp and others have also stated that fighting Yonkou wasn't necessary to become Pirate King. Roger likely became a ruler and/or received immense hype because he was the first one to reach Raftel and find One Piece. Otherwise it seemed Whitebeard and Roger were tied.

We weren't told Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaido. We're just told that he went to WCI and that she screwed up. Roger did fight Whitebeard, so there's really no reason why he wouldn't have fought Big Mom or Kaido.

Also, taking things into consideration, it's not easy to get to WCI:

1. Roger would have had to enter her castle to gain the Poneglyph.
2. It's what, half an entire day's journey just to leave WCI if not more to completely leave the territory?
3. 12 hours worth of escaping doesn't go unchallenged. We saw what the SHs went through just trying to run away.
4. More so, even if Roger did fight and defeat Big Mom, it still doesn't mean he didn't have to run away given that she has a bigger crew who would undoubtedly chase the Roger Pirates anyway.

And the same thing was said about Kid, that he got what he wanted from WCI and then left. It's not until Wano where we're told he didn't just leave, but also injured a commander. In essence, we were not told the full story, and we also weren't told the full story regarding Roger's time at WCI. We're only told the most important bit, or rather, a summation which is he acquired her Poneglyph's information.

Roger likely became a ruler and/or received immense hype because he was the first one to reach Raftel and find One Piece. Otherwise it seemed Whitebeard and Roger were tied.

He reached Raftel because he was the strongest. Just like at Marineford, Buggy is phrasing things exactly the same way; Whitebeard is being praised for being able to fight Roger as if Whitebeard is less of a monster than Roger. This speaks volumes about Roger's strength. Shiki didn't even believe that Roger could be captured, again, speaks volumes of Roger's strength.

I doubt Luffy will become the most powerful pirate.

Well, fair. However, it's almost definite that he will be the strongest. If Zoro is going to be able to take on Mihawk who is as strong as an Emperor, there's no reason why Luffy won't be the strongest Pirate given that to be Pirate King, you have to at the very least be as strong as an Emperor. If Zoro is going to become that strong, Luffy will be at the very least that strong if not stronger.

Even Chinajo has said this or sharply implied this, the strongest King's Haki user will be the Pirate King. King's Haki only grows stronger as the user becomes stronger as Rayleigh said. Luffy will unequivocally be the strongest by the end of the series. It's unavoidable when his opponents are the Emperors and later on, the Admirals.

 

[nik87]

I think Zoro has been from the start a different side of the same coin with Luffy. Both have a different goal so they are not in each other's way.
I think Luffy was never intended to be the strongest character in the entire One Piece. His definition of Pirate King isnt the strongest pirate but the one with the most freedom. That freedom doesn't necessarily depend on his individual strength but may include his crew because no matter how strong an individual is he cant achieve too much alone when faced with big numbers.

What may set the Strawhats apart from all others in the end is if they have 2 individuals with incredible strength and that would be Luffy and Zoro. As much as Zoro looks ordinary he said he cannot allow himself to be ordinary and he indeed is pulling off feats no ordinary person can do. If ordinary looking pirates like Rayleigh and Shanks can achieve the heights they achieved so can Zoro and if he does that, Luffy wont necessarily be superior to him at all. We know from the beginning that sharp weapons are Luffy's weakness and no matter how strong he gets he wont be immune to damage from opponents of Shanks/Rayleigh tier.

From what I see, there are two issues that stand out in the Pirate world, Big Mom and Kaido with their exceptionally strong bodies. If they get defeated by team effort or by some plot element there is no reason for Luffy to surpass their strength. He doesnt even need to be as strong as Admirals, just strong enough to fight them and not get killed. We saw from the fight with Katakuri that he doesnt necessarily needs to be stronger to "win". For the stories purposes, he always needs to be an underdog and at disadvantage and a great struggle in last battle is basically a given.

If Naruto ended up with another character equal to main character no reason why OP cant do the same or even do something no other Shounen manga did. Zoro more than anyone feels like someone who is there to keep an eye on Luffy's power and push him further because he himself is right there with him and always has set expectations for him as his captain. Saying that they will be equal in strength or very hard to tell who would win aint that silly as it may look. Of course, it all depends on how much Oda is willing to work on Zoro.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think Zoro has been from the start a different side of the same coin with Luffy. Both have a different goal so they are not in each other's way.
I think Luffy was never intended to be the strongest character in the entire One Piece. His definition of Pirate King isnt the strongest pirate but the one with the most freedom. That freedom doesn't necessarily depend on his individual strength but may include his crew because no matter how strong an individual is he cant achieve too much alone when faced with big numbers.

What may set the Strawhats apart from all others in the end is if they have 2 individuals with incredible strength and that would be Luffy and Zoro. As much as Zoro looks ordinary he said he cannot allow himself to be ordinary and he indeed is pulling off feats no ordinary person can do. If ordinary looking pirates like Rayleigh and Shanks can achieve the heights they achieved so can Zoro and if he does that, Luffy wont necessarily be superior to him at all. We know from the beginning that sharp weapons are Luffy's weakness and no matter how strong he gets he wont be immune to damage from opponents of Shanks/Rayleigh tier.

From what I see, there are two issues that stand out in the Pirate world, Big Mom and Kaido with their exceptionally strong bodies. If they get defeated by team effort or by some plot element there is no reason for Luffy to surpass their strength. He doesnt even need to be as strong as Admirals, just strong enough to fight them and not get killed. We saw from the fight with Katakuri that he doesnt necessarily needs to be stronger to "win". For the stories purposes, he always needs to be an underdog and at disadvantage and a great struggle in last battle is basically a given.

If Naruto ended up with another character equal to main character no reason why OP cant do the same or even do something no other Shounen manga did. Zoro more than anyone feels like someone who is there to keep an eye on Luffy's power and push him further because he himself is right there with him and always has set expectations for him as his captain. Saying that they will be equal in strength or very hard to tell who would win aint that silly as it may look. Of course, it all depends on how much Oda is willing to work on Zoro.

If zoro and Luffy were rivals, I can somewhat agree with your stance. They aren't.

Zoro and Sanji are the rivals.

There have NEVER been a manga where the MC didn HAVE to be as strong as EoS villains.

And I'm seriously not trying to bash this idea but I'm not holding my breath that an MC's subordinate is stronger than him. And by the looks of it, not many take it seriously. From my experience.

 

[nik87]

Zoro and Sanji are the rivals.

How are they rivals? Competing in what?
I dont see that rivalry except for the different personality which makes them not being able to stand each other.

Zoro and Luffy aren't rivals but nothing prevents Zoro from being as strong as Luffy in the end.

 

[Pirate Queen]

How are they rivals? Competing in what?
I dont see that rivalry except for the different personality which makes them not being able to stand each other.

Zoro and Luffy aren't rivals but nothing prevents Zoro from being as strong as Luffy in the end.

They are always arguing and shit, always giving eachother a hard time, dreaming about beating eachother (lol)

It's a friendly rivalry, but they are always trying to 1 up eachother.

 

[nik87]

They are always arguing and shit, always giving eachother a hard time, dreaming about beating eachother (lol)

It's a friendly rivalry, but they are always trying to 1 up eachother.

Beating each other in dreams is cover page request...
I know that they are arguing but thats where their rivalry ends, it isnt combat related, just their personalities.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Beating each other in dreams is cover page request...
I know that they are arguing but thats where their rivalry ends, it isnt combat related, just their personalities.

Ok, I just happen to disagree.

We both learned something new about our stances on rivalries lol