Discussion The Purpose of Zoro

[Sachsenhesse]

There have NEVER been a manga where the MC didn HAVE to be as strong as EoS villains.

Naruto? There they needed to team up... (it still was trash)

Shaman King? Hao did still trash everyone...

 

[thedude]

Naruto? There they needed to team up... (it still was trash)

Shaman King? Hao did still trash everyone...

Lol, let's not talk about the end of Naruto. 500 chapters of patient growth in skills, then "uh...let's just give Naruto and Sasuke massive power ups at the last minute to fight a final boss we haven't mentioned for 680 chapters". I hope Oda isn't going that direction!

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2019 ---

Luffy will be the most powerful if for no other reason other than this is shounen and the MC usually reaches heights not reached by previous generations.

I agree with HP.

While you dont need to defeat other Yonko, the process that Luffy is going through (actually fighting them) will put him above all others.

Right, Luffy has from the start stated his desire to defeat the Yonko. So he clearly views that as the way to being the Pirate King. He doesn't view it as a thing you can sneak around and claim. So to do it, he will have to be the strongest.

 

[M3J]

I know your not a zoro fan boy lol, we've debated enough to where I know your stances on much of One Piece.

Those weren't much of curve balls tho. If Luffy had done anything significant to Yonko everyone would be arguing that Luffy is way to power for it not even being close to the end of One Piece. We'd lose all anticipation for future battles. I can name dozens of manga that have similar moments

Alot of Luffy's progress is typical shounen. Name a shounen where the MC didnt finish as the strongest in verse? Be it a flashforward or what have you.

Whether Luffy has advantages or not, Luffy will remain stronger, and EoS will be shown to have surpassed his predecessors.

I've been accused of being one just because I don't insist on saying Luffy's the strongest of his crew.

It was a curve ball for a lot of readers though, like Hannibal Psyche. I'm more than okay with Luffy losing to an Emperor this early on, and it was predictable given the trouble he had against Cracker and Katakuri.

Yu Yu Hakusho, Full Metal Alchemist, and possibly Naruto.

I dunno, there's a lot of hype behind lots of characters that sometimes get proven wrong later on.

We weren't told Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaido. We're just told that he went to WCI and that she screwed up. Roger did fight Whitebeard, so there's really no reason why he wouldn't have fought Big Mom or Kaido.

Also, taking things into consideration, it's not easy to get to WCI:

1. Roger would have had to enter her castle to gain the Poneglyph.
2. It's what, half an entire day's journey just to leave WCI if not more to completely leave the territory?
3. 12 hours worth of escaping doesn't go unchallenged. We saw what the SHs went through just trying to run away.
4. More so, even if Roger did fight and defeat Big Mom, it still doesn't mean he didn't have to run away given that she has a bigger crew who would undoubtedly chase the Roger Pirates anyway.

And the same thing was said about Kid, that he got what he wanted from WCI and then left. It's not until Wano where we're told he didn't just leave, but also injured a commander. In essence, we were not told the full story, and we also weren't told the full story regarding Roger's time at WCI. We're only told the most important bit, or rather, a summation which is he acquired her Poneglyph's information.

He reached Raftel because he was the strongest. Just like at Marineford, Buggy is phrasing things exactly the same way; Whitebeard is being praised for being able to fight Roger as if Whitebeard is less of a monster than Roger. This speaks volumes about Roger's strength. Shiki didn't even believe that Roger could be captured, again, speaks volumes of Roger's strength.



Well, fair. However, it's almost definite that he will be the strongest. If Zoro is going to be able to take on Mihawk who is as strong as an Emperor, there's no reason why Luffy won't be the strongest Pirate given that to be Pirate King, you have to at the very least be as strong as an Emperor. If Zoro is going to become that strong, Luffy will be at the very least that strong if not stronger.

Even Chinajo has said this or sharply implied this, the strongest King's Haki user will be the Pirate King. King's Haki only grows stronger as the user becomes stronger as Rayleigh said. Luffy will unequivocally be the strongest by the end of the series. It's unavoidable when his opponents are the Emperors and later on, the Admirals.

And nothing ever implied that Roger fought either of them or that there was a winner. Whitebeard and Roger were likely friendly rivals, whereas Big Mom and Kaidou were enemies. And on Zou, we learned that Luffy does not need to fight the Emperors to become Pirate King, he just needs to get to Raftel. We don't know how Roger got into WCI, whether he was detected or not, or how he managed to get away. We do know Big Mom made the mistake of letting Roger get away for some reason. All we can do is guess.

Roger reached Raftel because he had all the Poneglyphs. If BIg Mom or Kaidou lost to Roger, then how are they still Emperors? Roger also had luck - Shiki went up against Roger's sole ship with an armada, and if it weren't for the weather wiping away most of the fleet, then Roger would have likely lost. I'm sure Shiki was talking about Roger's luck as well. With Buggy though, you got me there.


It's not all that definite though. You need to start allowing more wiggle room for different possibilities, I thought Whole Cake Island made it clear that One Piece isn't going to have Luffy beat the captain or final opponent every arc. He invaded Big Mom's territory, went face-to-face with her, and challenged her, but he was unable to take her out as he did to the bosses in past arcs. Instead, he was pushed past his limit against her underling. And then after that, lost to Kaidou in one blow. This manga can be unpredictable, and given Zoro's primary role is to fight and loves it, there's no reason to believe he might not be stronger than Luffy.

Luffy has also won against opponents superior to him.

If zoro and Luffy were rivals, I can somewhat agree with your stance. They aren't.

Zoro and Sanji are the rivals.

There have NEVER been a manga where the MC didn HAVE to be as strong as EoS villains.

And I'm seriously not trying to bash this idea but I'm not holding my breath that an MC's subordinate is stronger than him. And by the looks of it, not many take it seriously. From my experience.

Edward Elric from Full Metal Alchemist was nowhere near as strong as Homunculus though, but he still managed to beat him. Yu Yu Hakusho had Yusuke lose the tournament in the final arc, and he was significantly weaker than his dying ancestor and Shinobu. It's possible for a shounen MC to be weaker than EoS villain or even friends.

You guys need to stop acting as if all shounens must follow set rules, and that none are allowed to break it. It's annoying and stupid.

And while Zoro and Luffy aren't rivals, Zoro still wants to be the strongest and protect the crew while Luffy wants to be free and strong enough to protect his crew.

How are they rivals? Competing in what?
I dont see that rivalry except for the different personality which makes them not being able to stand each other.

Zoro and Luffy aren't rivals but nothing prevents Zoro from being as strong as Luffy in the end.

Zoro and Sanji are rivals because they compete with each other in strength, beating their opponents, and whatnot. I think it started on that island where they met Dorry and whats-his-name, and Sanji was out hunting for food.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Don't get your hope up lol.

Good luck to your possibility

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And nothing ever implied that Roger fought either of them or that there was a winner.

Nothing says they didn't.

It is like being told that someone went to University and got a masters. And then you claim nah they didn't study, they didn't even do an exam or write a thesis, they simply walked into the University premises and acquired a masters because they only said they went to University and got a masters.

You can't know exactly what happened merely from a conclusion because it lacks details. WCI can literally be abridged as going to WCI to get a Poneglyph, take back Sanji and then leaving. While it isn't wrong, it just doesn't detail everything that took place.

Whitebeard and Roger were likely friendly rivals

They weren't friendly rivals, they were enemies. They wouldn't have fought each other if they weren't enemies.

They just respected the other outside of battle. Even Shiki states that Roger was a wall that stood before himself and Whitebeard. Even Shiki was an enemy of Whitebeard, it's just outside of battle that they can be courteous to each other. Doesn't mean they wouldn't kill the other in battle when their agendas are in play.

Only reason Roger and Whitebeard are seen together in the end was he was going to die, his crew had been disbanded, he'd already become Pirate King... there was no reason to fight, he came there to inform Whitebeard on some information.

And on Zou, we learned that Luffy does not need to fight the Emperors to become Pirate King

We didn't, Usopp's statement there was a joke because it's unrealistic. It's impossible to do so without fighting. Otherwise there'd be no need for the time-skip for the SHs to grow stronger.

Law said this about entering into the territory of the Emperors. Impossible to do so without fighting due to the sheer size of the territory and the number of subordinates.

We don't know how Roger got into WCI, whether he was detected or not, or how he managed to get away.

We've already been to WCI. No one can just go into WCI undetected. The whole territory especially the sea is monitored by sea slugs and innumerable number of homies.

We do know Big Mom made the mistake of letting Roger get away for some reason. All we can do is guess.

Sensible and reasonable guesses. It's like saying that it's reasonable to assume that someone just walked into Impel Down and escaped without fighting anyone. Highly unlike. It's the case when one enters into the territory of an Emperor, it's only a sensible and reasonable assumption to assume there was some sort of exchange and conflict.

Even if we don't know, chances of simply going to WCI and not fighting or being detected, highly unlikely to the point of being an unreasonable assumption.

Big Mom wouldn't even know Roger read her Poneglyph with VOAT had she not seen him there. That's the kind of statement that proves they must have met the other during his time in WCI. If someone read your diary and then sneaked out undetected, there's no way you could deduce that someone read your diary unless you saw them do so. At the very least, Big Mom and Roger met during his time in WCI. Highly doubt she just stood there and let him do as he pleased.

Roger reached Raftel because he had all the Poneglyphs. If BIg Mom or Kaidou lost to Roger, then how are they still Emperors?

You don't stop being an Emperor for losing. Manga has never said this.

Shiki also lost to Roger, didn't stop him being the top 3 Pirates or Emperors during Roger's era. Kaido also lost 7 times and has been captured 18 times. If losing stopped someone being an Emperor, Kaido shouldn't be considered one at the very least with that record.

Roger also had luck

So does Luffy, doesn't change the fact he still needs to be strong. It was a sea battle, not a hand to hand battle. No luck in hand to hand battles. No amount of luck would have helped Luffy defeat Katakuri, only strength, thus why Rayleigh trained Luffy. It's impossible to defeat others without strength.

Only role luck plays is in circumstances like the weather, timing, but not hand to hand combat. Luffy being in the same prison as Grandpa Hyou or Kawamatsu, that's luck because now he has acquired 1 of the 9 scabbards and Hyou gives them access to 5,000 Samurai. Luck is circumstantial, strength is the only way to defeat the strong and that's absolutely necessary.

I thought Whole Cake Island made it clear that One Piece isn't going to have Luffy beat the captain or final opponent every arc.

WCI wasn't meant to be a fight to defeat an Emperor, but rather, to save Sanji. WCI doesn't imply anything about Luffy not defeating Captains. All Oda did was change Big Mom from being the main antagonist to fighting and having Katakuri being the main obstacle. He still intends to return back for Big Mom. Luffy's still growing stronger.

When there's no reason for him to fight Katakuri again, no one left but Big Mom.

And then after that, lost to Kaidou in one blow. This manga can be unpredictable, and given Zoro's primary role is to fight and loves it, there's no reason to believe he might not be stronger than Luffy.

Well, if you read the Vivre-card:

He's not, his strength is only 2nd to Luffy's. As is established, the captain is always the strongest. There's absolute reason to believe Luffy is stronger as he's defeated the strongest opponents in every arc while Zoro tends to take on the 2nd strongest.

Pretty much conclusive that Luffy will definitely defeat the Emperors. He's still growing stronger. Unless you can prove that Luffy won't grow stronger than he currently is, then being koed by Kaido is irrelevant. Luffy tends to lose initial battles and then comes back either more composed or stronger. He's yet to Awaken and we know his Haki will definitely improve this arc.

You can choose to think otherwise, but it seems pretty clear whether we like it or not.

And nothing ever implied that Roger fought either of them or that there was a winner.

Actually is.

Whenever a character remembers a character who defeated or humiliated them in some shape or form, the scar they got from that person aches.

1. Chinjao's scar aches when he remembers Garp.
2. Luffy's does when he remembers Akainu.
3. Tamago's does when he remembers Pedro.
4. Shanks' aches when he remembers Blackbeard.

Unsurprisingly, Whitebeard's scar arches when he remembers Roger. Implies he defeated him.

Luffy has also won against opponents superior to him.

He actually never has. If you hit a character and they make this expression, it means you're just as strong as they are or maybe stronger. As long as you can do damage to a character with your physical strength, then they're not superior that superior to you.

Only time Luffy has come close to defeating a character stronger than himself was never. That's why Luffy couldn't even stand toe to toe with Admirals pre-skip. Strength is important. Moriah was the only opponent that was defeated by a team-effort, every other opponent outside of that was due to his own strength.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Nothing says they didn't.

It is like being told that someone went to University and got a masters. And then you claim nah they didn't study, they didn't even do an exam or write a thesis, they simply walked into the University premises and acquired a masters because they only said they went to University and got a masters.

You can't know exactly what happened merely from a conclusion because it lacks details. WCI can literally be abridged as going to WCI to get a Poneglyph, take back Sanji and then leaving. While it isn't wrong, it just doesn't detail everything that took place.

They weren't friendly rivals, they were enemies. They wouldn't have fought each other if they weren't enemies.

They just respected the other outside of battle. Even Shiki states that Roger was a wall that stood before himself and Whitebeard. Even Shiki was an enemy of Whitebeard, it's just outside of battle that they can be courteous to each other. Doesn't mean they wouldn't kill the other in battle when their agendas are in play.

Only reason Roger and Whitebeard are seen together in the end was he was going to die, his crew had been disbanded, he'd already become Pirate King... there was no reason to fight, he came there to inform Whitebeard on some information.

We didn't, Usopp's statement there was a joke because it's unrealistic. It's impossible to do so without fighting. Otherwise there'd be no need for the time-skip for the SHs to grow stronger.

Law said this about entering into the territory of the Emperors. Impossible to do so without fighting due to the sheer size of the territory and the number of subordinates.



We've already been to WCI. No one can just go into WCI undetected. The whole territory especially the sea is monitored by sea slugs and innumerable number of homies.



Sensible and reasonable guesses. It's like saying that it's reasonable to assume that someone just walked into Impel Down and escaped without fighting anyone. Highly unlike. It's the case when one enters into the territory of an Emperor, it's only a sensible and reasonable assumption to assume there was some sort of exchange and conflict.

Even if we don't know, chances of simply going to WCI and not fighting or being detected, highly unlikely to the point of being an unreasonable assumption.

Big Mom wouldn't even know Roger read her Poneglyph with VOAT had she not seen him there. That's the kind of statement that proves they must have met the other during his time in WCI. If someone read your diary and then sneaked out undetected, there's no way you could deduce that someone read your diary unless you saw them do so. At the very least, Big Mom and Roger met during his time in WCI. Highly doubt she just stood there and let him do as he pleased.



You don't stop being an Emperor for losing. Manga has never said this.

Shiki also lost to Roger, didn't stop him being the top 3 Pirates or Emperors during Roger's era. Kaido also lost 7 times and has been captured 18 times. If losing stopped someone being an Emperor, Kaido shouldn't be considered one at the very least with that record.



So does Luffy, doesn't change the fact he still needs to be strong. It was a sea battle, not a hand to hand battle. No luck in hand to hand battles. No amount of luck would have helped Luffy defeat Katakuri, only strength, thus why Rayleigh trained Luffy. It's impossible to defeat others without strength.

Only role luck plays is in circumstances like the weather, timing, but not hand to hand combat. Luffy being in the same prison as Grandpa Hyou or Kawamatsu, that's luck because now he has acquired 1 of the 9 scabbards and Hyou gives them access to 5,000 Samurai. Luck is circumstantial, strength is the only way to defeat the strong and that's absolutely necessary.

WCI wasn't meant to be a fight to defeat an Emperor, but rather, to save Sanji. WCI doesn't imply anything about Luffy not defeating Captains. All Oda did was change Big Mom from being the main antagonist to fighting and having Katakuri being the main obstacle. He still intends to return back for Big Mom. Luffy's still growing stronger.

When there's no reason for him to fight Katakuri again, no one left but Big Mom.



Well, if you read the Vivre-card:

He's not, his strength is only 2nd to Luffy's. As is established, the captain is always the strongest. There's absolute reason to believe Luffy is stronger as he's defeated the strongest opponents in every arc while Zoro tends to take on the 2nd strongest.

Pretty much conclusive that Luffy will definitely defeat the Emperors. He's still growing stronger. Unless you can prove that Luffy won't grow stronger than he currently is, then being koed by Kaido is irrelevant. Luffy tends to lose initial battles and then comes back either more composed or stronger. He's yet to Awaken and we know his Haki will definitely improve this arc.

You can choose to think otherwise, but it seems pretty clear whether we like it or not.



Actually is.

Whenever a character remembers a character who defeated or humiliated them in some shape or form, the scar they got from that person aches.

1. Chinjao's scar aches when he remembers Garp.
2. Luffy's does when he remembers Akainu.
3. Tamago's does when he remembers Pedro.
4. Shanks' aches when he remembers Blackbeard.

Unsurprisingly, Whitebeard's scar arches when he remembers Roger. Implies he defeated him.

He actually never has. If you hit a character and they make this expression, it means you're just as strong as they are or maybe stronger. As long as you can do damage to a character with your physical strength, then they're not superior that superior to you.

Only time Luffy has come close to defeating a character stronger than himself was never. That's why Luffy couldn't even stand toe to toe with Admirals pre-skip. Strength is important. Moriah was the only opponent that was defeated by a team-effort, every other opponent outside of that was due to his own strength.

I wish I had your patience to debate unpopular theories. Well said like always.

Agree with all of it.

I'm surprised how down played Rodger llgets by some. It doesn't happen often, but when it pops up? I'm just like... WTF? Lol

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I wish I had your patience to debate unpopular theories. Well said like always.

Agree with all of it.

I'm surprised how down played Rodger llgets by some. It doesn't happen often, but when it pops up? I'm just like... WTF? Lol

I think the reason is because Roger has been kind of absent in the story, he's never really been the focal point and the luck-factor is exaggerated beyond what is possible. If luck conquered all, then Luffy shouldn't have needed to train for 2 years or develop FS just to defeat Katakuri.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think the reason is because Roger has been kind of absent in the story, he's never really been the focal point and the luck-factor is exaggerated beyond what is possible. If luck conquered all, then Luffy shouldn't have needed to train for 2 years or develop FS just to defeat Katakuri.

One solid flashback could remove all doubt but Oda has been stingy with flashback with characters of import.

 

[afromarco005]

I think that yonko are not the endgame bosses, after the yonko saga will come something bigger than the likes of BBplot to become yonko and I think it will be linked to Im sama, the strawhat and the void century.

I doubt Luffy will become the most powerful pirate. And we have also been told that Roger didn't fight Big Mom or Kaidou, that he just got to their Poneglyphs and left. Usopp and others have also stated that fighting Yonkou wasn't necessary to become Pirate King. Roger likely became a ruler and/or received immense hype because he was the first one to reach Raftel and find One Piece. Otherwise it seemed Whitebeard and Roger were tied.

That's wrong. Down left corner pannels

Spoiler

 

[M3J]

It is like being told that someone went to University and got a masters. And then you claim nah they didn't study, they didn't even do an exam or write a thesis, they simply walked into the University premises and acquired a masters because they only said they went to University and got a masters.

You can't know exactly what happened merely from a conclusion because it lacks details. WCI can literally be abridged as going to WCI to get a Poneglyph, take back Sanji and then leaving. While it isn't wrong, it just doesn't detail everything that took place.

oookay.

And yet, aren't you trying to claim this or that happened instead of being aware that it's a possibility?

They weren't friendly rivals, they were enemies. They wouldn't have fought each other if they weren't enemies.

They just respected the other outside of battle. Even Shiki states that Roger was a wall that stood before himself and Whitebeard. Even Shiki was an enemy of Whitebeard, it's just outside of battle that they can be courteous to each other. Doesn't mean they wouldn't kill the other in battle when their agendas are in play.

Only reason Roger and Whitebeard are seen together in the end was he was going to die, his crew had been disbanded, he'd already become Pirate King... there was no reason to fight, he came there to inform Whitebeard on some information.

They can be friendly rivals and still fight each other. And while Shiki said that, Whitebeard didn't seem to care about that, and nor did he have a desire to become Pirate King or whatnot. We've had this argument multiple times before. If Shiki, Whitebeard, or Roger were enemies, then they would try to kill each other or at least, not be friendly with each other.

Shanks and Mihawk didn't seem to be enemies, but they still fought with each other. Whitebeard at the very least had reason to refuse to talk to Roger, but both got along as if they were friends for years.

We didn't, Usopp's statement there was a joke because it's unrealistic. It's impossible to do so without fighting. Otherwise there'd be no need for the time-skip for the SHs to grow stronger.

Law said this about entering into the territory of the Emperors. Impossible to do so without fighting due to the sheer size of the territory and the number of subordinates.

Doubt it was a joke or that unrealistic. If Luffy wanted to, he could being Pirate King without fighting the Yonkou, but we know he will because he wants to. And the time-skip is necessary otherwise Luffy would have lost to Katakuri, Doflamingo, and even Caesar. The point of training was so the Straw Hats could deal with the average New World opponents, who are supposedly as strong or stronger than the Pacifistas.

We've already been to WCI. No one can just go into WCI undetected. The whole territory especially the sea is monitored by sea slugs and innumerable number of homies.

We've been to WCI in current time, and for all we know, Roger is why Big Mom added so much security that it's impossible for anyone to get into WCI undetected. Roger could have found a hole in her security and exploited it.

Sensible and reasonable guesses. It's like saying that it's reasonable to assume that someone just walked into Impel Down and escaped without fighting anyone. Highly unlike. It's the case when one enters into the territory of an Emperor, it's only a sensible and reasonable assumption to assume there was some sort of exchange and conflict.

Even if we don't know, chances of simply going to WCI and not fighting or being detected, highly unlikely to the point of being an unreasonable assumption.

Big Mom wouldn't even know Roger read her Poneglyph with VOAT had she not seen him there. That's the kind of statement that proves they must have met the other during his time in WCI. If someone read your diary and then sneaked out undetected, there's no way you could deduce that someone read your diary unless you saw them do so. At the very least, Big Mom and Roger met during his time in WCI. Highly doubt she just stood there and let him do as he pleased.

Well, we know that's never happened because otherwise it'd have been brought up during the arc. We can also surmise that Roger got away from Big Mom, otherwise either side taking damage would have been mentioned.

That is true, unless she knew Roger had VoAT and could guess from that after finding out Roger was on WCI. Also highly doubt they fought, and if they did, why wasn't it mentioned?

You don't stop being an Emperor for losing. Manga has never said this.

Shiki also lost to Roger, didn't stop him being the top 3 Pirates or Emperors during Roger's era. Kaido also lost 7 times and has been captured 18 times. If losing stopped someone being an Emperor, Kaido shouldn't be considered one at the very least with that record.

Manga also has never said Roger beat Big Mom and Kaidou or fought them, yet we're still here arguing that he has.

Kaidou is still alive and is still seen as extremely powerful. Was his crew with him every time he lost? If Big Mom and her crew fought Roger, then it is suspicious, if Roger managed to win, that no one moved in for the kill. I also don't remember Shiki being an Emperor, even if he was one of the top 3 pirates.

So does Luffy, doesn't change the fact he still needs to be strong. It was a sea battle, not a hand to hand battle. No luck in hand to hand battles. No amount of luck would have helped Luffy defeat Katakuri, only strength, thus why Rayleigh trained Luffy. It's impossible to defeat others without strength.

Only role luck plays is in circumstances like the weather, timing, but not hand to hand combat. Luffy being in the same prison as Grandpa Hyou or Kawamatsu, that's luck because now he has acquired 1 of the 9 scabbards and Hyou gives them access to 5,000 Samurai. Luck is circumstantial, strength is the only way to defeat the strong and that's absolutely necessary.

There is luck involved in hand-to-hand battles. The only one I can remember though is that drop of water landing in Luffy's mouth and rehydrating him so he could fight Crocodile for the third time. Luck plays far more roles than that, including hand-to-hand combat. Just look at how Usopp beat Sugar, he made a scary face that she didn't expect at all by accident. That's one hell of a luck.

WCI wasn't meant to be a fight to defeat an Emperor, but rather, to save Sanji. WCI doesn't imply anything about Luffy not defeating Captains. All Oda did was change Big Mom from being the main antagonist to fighting and having Katakuri being the main obstacle. He still intends to return back for Big Mom. Luffy's still growing stronger.

When there's no reason for him to fight Katakuri again, no one left but Big Mom.

If I recall correctly, that's exactly what I said to you when you were insisting that we'd see Luffy vs. Big Mom where Luffy won, and it took you Katakuri to realize you were wrong, and not Cracker.

Guess Luffy's the only one who's gonna get stronger. Not Zoro, Sanji, or any other Straw Hat.

He's not, his strength is only 2nd to Luffy's. As is established, the captain is always the strongest. There's absolute reason to believe Luffy is stronger as he's defeated the strongest opponents in every arc while Zoro tends to take on the 2nd strongest.

Pretty much conclusive that Luffy will definitely defeat the Emperors. He's still growing stronger. Unless you can prove that Luffy won't grow stronger than he currently is, then being koed by Kaido is irrelevant. Luffy tends to lose initial battles and then comes back either more composed or stronger. He's yet to Awaken and we know his Haki will definitely improve this arc.

You can choose to think otherwise, but it seems pretty clear whether we like it or not.

Luffy beat opponents he had an advantage against. Enel, Lucci, and Doflamingo, for examples. His advantage came from his rubber body. Zoro has not shown to be that weak or significantly weak that he can't be on par with Luffy, so no, there's no absolute reason to believe Luffy is stronger.

Haven't I theorized that Luffy will beat Kaidou with significant amount of help but get strong enough to beat Big Mom by herself? Rhetorical question, because I did say that.

Unsurprisingly, Whitebeard's scar arches when he remembers Roger. Implies he defeated him.

Not really, it just shows Roger gave Whitebeard a bad wound.

He actually never has. If you hit a character and they make this expression, it means you're just as strong as they are or maybe stronger. As long as you can do damage to a character with your physical strength, then they're not superior that superior to you.

Only time Luffy has come close to defeating a character stronger than himself was never. That's why Luffy couldn't even stand toe to toe with Admirals pre-skip. Strength is important. Moriah was the only opponent that was defeated by a team-effort, every other opponent outside of that was due to his own strength.

Not really. Crocodile beat Luffy twice and nearly killed him. Lucci is debatable, Doflamingo would have ended Luffy if it weren't for the other gladiators helping Luffy. Katakuri could have given a blow to Luffy, probably, but we know he had enough energy to stop himself from falling forward and chose to fall backward. I never said strength wasn't important, but it's not the be-all-end-all.

That's wrong. Down left corner pannels

Spoiler

undefined

"If I have to." DOesn't counter what I said, Luffy doesn't have to beat the Yonkou or Marines to become Pirate King, he just has to be strong enough to deal with them if they cross his way.



Oh forgot, but another purpose Zoro has is being the voice of tough reason like he was when Usopp left, and when he told Luffy that Luffy can't be reckless anymore.

 

[afromarco005]

oookay.

And yet, aren't you trying to claim this or that happened instead of being aware that it's a possibility?

They can be friendly rivals and still fight each other. And while Shiki said that, Whitebeard didn't seem to care about that, and nor did he have a desire to become Pirate King or whatnot. We've had this argument multiple times before. If Shiki, Whitebeard, or Roger were enemies, then they would try to kill each other or at least, not be friendly with each other.

Shanks and Mihawk didn't seem to be enemies, but they still fought with each other. Whitebeard at the very least had reason to refuse to talk to Roger, but both got along as if they were friends for years.


Doubt it was a joke or that unrealistic. If Luffy wanted to, he could being Pirate King without fighting the Yonkou, but we know he will because he wants to. And the time-skip is necessary otherwise Luffy would have lost to Katakuri, Doflamingo, and even Caesar. The point of training was so the Straw Hats could deal with the average New World opponents, who are supposedly as strong or stronger than the Pacifistas.


We've been to WCI in current time, and for all we know, Roger is why Big Mom added so much security that it's impossible for anyone to get into WCI undetected. Roger could have found a hole in her security and exploited it.

Well, we know that's never happened because otherwise it'd have been brought up during the arc. We can also surmise that Roger got away from Big Mom, otherwise either side taking damage would have been mentioned.

That is true, unless she knew Roger had VoAT and could guess from that after finding out Roger was on WCI. Also highly doubt they fought, and if they did, why wasn't it mentioned?


Manga also has never said Roger beat Big Mom and Kaidou or fought them, yet we're still here arguing that he has.

Kaidou is still alive and is still seen as extremely powerful. Was his crew with him every time he lost? If Big Mom and her crew fought Roger, then it is suspicious, if Roger managed to win, that no one moved in for the kill. I also don't remember Shiki being an Emperor, even if he was one of the top 3 pirates.

There is luck involved in hand-to-hand battles. The only one I can remember though is that drop of water landing in Luffy's mouth and rehydrating him so he could fight Crocodile for the third time. Luck plays far more roles than that, including hand-to-hand combat. Just look at how Usopp beat Sugar, he made a scary face that she didn't expect at all by accident. That's one hell of a luck.


If I recall correctly, that's exactly what I said to you when you were insisting that we'd see Luffy vs. Big Mom where Luffy won, and it took you Katakuri to realize you were wrong, and not Cracker.

Guess Luffy's the only one who's gonna get stronger. Not Zoro, Sanji, or any other Straw Hat.


Luffy beat opponents he had an advantage against. Enel, Lucci, and Doflamingo, for examples. His advantage came from his rubber body. Zoro has not shown to be that weak or significantly weak that he can't be on par with Luffy, so no, there's no absolute reason to believe Luffy is stronger.

Haven't I theorized that Luffy will beat Kaidou with significant amount of help but get strong enough to beat Big Mom by herself? Rhetorical question, because I did say that.


Not really, it just shows Roger gave Whitebeard a bad wound.

Not really. Crocodile beat Luffy twice and nearly killed him. Lucci is debatable, Doflamingo would have ended Luffy if it weren't for the other gladiators helping Luffy. Katakuri could have given a blow to Luffy, probably, but we know he had enough energy to stop himself from falling forward and chose to fall backward. I never said strength wasn't important, but it's not the be-all-end-all.


"If I have to." DOesn't counter what I said, Luffy doesn't have to beat the Yonkou or Marines to become Pirate King, he just has to be strong enough to deal with them if they cross his way.



Oh forgot, but another purpose Zoro has is being the voice of tough reason like he was when Usopp left, and when he told Luffy that Luffy can't be reckless anymore.

common Luffy even said in punk hasard that he planned to take down all emperors

 

[M3J]

If Luffy wanted to, he could being Pirate King without fighting the Yonkou, but we know he will because he wants to.

Doesn't take away from the point that it's not necessary to fight and beat the Yonkou, as the title of Pirate King is acquired only if the pirate gets to Raftel. Though, if there is a powerful opponent at the end, then yeah, it'd increase the Straw Hats' chances of fighting the Yonkou as a way to get stronger.

 

[Pirate Queen]

You CANNOT get to Raftel without going through the Yonko.

The prerequisite for Roger to be PK is not the same for the next. Now, you cannot avoid the Yonko.

They rule the NW. The ONLY way to become PK now is to defeat them or reach heights greater than them.

 

[Fox666]

There have NEVER been a manga where the MC didn HAVE to be as strong as EoS villains.

I don't think that's the case many famous series.

Spoiler

Dragon Ball. Goku defused with Vegeta, then his Super Saiyan 3 form didn't last long enough to fight Majin Boo.

Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusuke lost the final match.

Naruto. Shitty ending.

Bleach. The author ended it prematurely.

Fairy Tail. Something about the (pathetic) villain splitting in two.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

@Fox666 Jeah let me summon @Lexusflame , from which the quote is.

 

[Brandish μ]

Okay enough PK stuff... back to Zoro and the purpose of his greatness.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I have been summoned?????!!!!! Lol nah

Wow, this is a Zoro thread.... how did we move from zoro to Luffy being PK? Lol

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2019 ---

.

 

[thedude]

And while Zoro and Luffy aren't rivals, Zoro still wants to be the strongest and protect the crew while Luffy wants to be free and strong enough to protect his crew.


Zoro and Sanji are rivals because they compete with each other in strength, beating their opponents, and whatnot. I think it started on that island where they met Dorry and whats-his-name, and Sanji was out hunting for food.

While I agree with a lot of your post, i disagree on Luffy and being "strong".

I do think Luffy wants to be the strongest, he has cried often about not being strong enough to protect someone. So to protect everyone he cares about he desires to be the strongest. I think there is solid proof of that all over OP. And he does want to beat the Yonko, he's said it over and over.

One Piece Chapter 818 Page 7

Read One Piece Chapter 818 Page 7 Online For Free

mangaseeonline.us

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-818-page-8.html (look at his face here when they talk about sneaking around to get the ponyglyph...he wants to fight).

And you are bang on about Zoro and Sanji as friendly rivals. Their Little Garden competition, their Foxy Pirates team-up, hell, on Zou when Luffy, when Luffy says they have to get back Sanji because he is like the strength of a thousand men, Zoro sulks and says "well, I'm like 2000 men".

One Piece Chapter 819 Page 15

Read One Piece Chapter 819 Page 15 Online For Free

mangaseeonline.us

(this is also why i'm confused when people think Oda has separated Sanji from the "monster 3" of the crew...the actual manga shows that nothing has changed in how the crew sees things).

 

[M3J]

And to stay on topic: Zoro is even more important here because since Luffy's planning on taking on Yonkou and likely the Marines/WG, Zoro's power will be needed to keep the other Straw Hats safe, even Luffy. He's also important in that he provides a tough perspective like he did with the Usopp situation.

 

[nik87]

Okay, the speculated chapter 944 is slowly approaching and the theory says that Zoro will die!
What are the chances of this happening? How will Oda pull of a death of one of the main characters and still keep him in the story?
If it was Brook or Franky a death could be cheated and be plausible but how to make it plausible with Zoro?

It all started with the cover spread Picnic with Zombies which gave birth to this theory. Zoro is sitting on a grave which has number 944 on it and he is surrounded by 3 death skulls, one on his shirt and 2 on the hats of the nearby zombie captains. There is something written on his shirt and if I got it right it could be part of the saying "The one who laughs last, laughs the best".

Spoiler: el que rie ultimo, rie mejor

The death theme follows Zoro for quite a while, he had been on death's door several times, we witnessed several death-defying scenes. Mr 1 told him that one miscalculation brings death, Kuma told him that he would die for sure. He also fought an undead samurai which may hint at what Zoro will become when he resurrects.

Spoiler: undead

There could be translation errors or we yet have to understand some scenes with Zoro, for example, these words of Mr 1.

Spoiler: already dead

One of the questions arising scenes is also from the duel against Mr 1. Zoro says that he already experienced this sensation of being at death's door. The question is when did it happen? Is he possibly a reincarnation of some swordsman/samurai recollecting the events of his previous life or is there something more that we have yet to see...

Spoiler: gates of hades

The cover spread, as mentioned, shows Zoro sitting on a grave and we know where Zoro is currently - at the northern graveyard. Coincidence?

Plot twist - Oda chills in ch.944 with BM eating Oshiruko and it's all been for nothing or Zoro eventually just finds Ryuma's grave.