Chapter Tower of God Chapter 439 Spoilers & Discussion

[kkck]

Something like that is hard to say in ToG, but it could be. Look at the 13 months. They are weapons, yet they have a conciousness. It also could be artifical, like the GoG. But the fact remains that whatever it is, it is useful to the scout position.

That's true.
I think it's like with any other item - it can have special functions based on the users style of scouting.


The scout is there to gather information. If the lightbearer could see that far without the scout, there is no need for a scout. Hacking (or using) systems to gather information is both done by lighthouse users (Khun's brother) and scouts (karaka).

The lightbearer is (in my opinion) more like a conductor for the team.

If the light bearer just needs someone to point him into the right direction, they could use a fisherman to do so.

That's a weird comparison considering the 13 month series are still objects. Heck, soul and all one of the 13 months could even be an observer. And even if the stingray was like the guardians at the hell train... wouldn't it still be a sort of living creature? If not at least biological? I suppose it wouldn't qualify as a shineuh in that scenario though.

Ah, that's not what I had in mind when I wrote the post. It's usually the lightbearer that helps aim and increase the team's range. As in, it'd be the light bearer that would help direct shinsoo blasts and spears towards a target. Information brought along by the scout would be necessary to that end of course. I suppose an observer could work with a spear bearer to that effect but in the end it's the lighthouse that provides the aid to aim and whatnot.

 

[Ripcord]

I'd think its the lightbearer's job to expand the team's range rather than the scout's. Between the two of them you'd get vast information about the terrain and through the lighthouse the means to aim precisely.

It was called a treasure eating stingray by zahard iirc. That sounds more like its some sort of beast rather than an object. Of course, I admit there is a lot of wiggle room there. I don't recall data zahard being near a bunch of those though.

In the first scene we see data Zahard with all the lighthouses he is also among many of those stingrays.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2019 ---

That's a weird comparison considering the 13 month series are still objects. Heck, soul and all one of the 13 months could even be an observer. And even if the stingray was like the guardians at the hell train... wouldn't it still be a sort of living creature? If not at least biological? I suppose it wouldn't qualify as a shineuh in that scenario though.

Ah, that's not what I had in mind when I wrote the post. It's usually the lightbearer that helps aim and increase the team's range. As in, it'd be the light bearer that would help direct shinsoo blasts and spears towards a target. Information brought along by the scout would be necessary to that end of course. I suppose an observer could work with a spear bearer to that effect but in the end it's the lighthouse that provides the aid to aim and whatnot.

That’s kinda funny, I hadn’t thought of one of the 13 months being an observer.

With your point it’s almost like Luel is capable of 3 positions at once, scout, light bearer, and spear bearer. I would think that a spear bearer could still use a scout’s info to extend his range or make a better shot, even without a lighthouse support. For all we know one scout ability is enhanced eyesight. Well that’s just wild speculation....

What I mean to say is that I agree with your argument that it’s weird - I have to take SIU at his word because he’s the writer of course, so I’m trying to justify it. Perhaps in this case it just doesn’t fit.

 

[kkck]

In the first scene we see data Zahard with all the lighthouses he is also among many of those stingrays.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2019 ---

That’s kinda funny, I hadn’t thought of one of the 13 months being an observer.

With your point it’s almost like Luel is capable of 3 positions at once, scout, light bearer, and spear bearer. I would think that a spear bearer could still use a scout’s info to extend his range or make a better shot, even without a lighthouse support. For all we know one scout ability is enhanced eyesight. Well that’s just wild speculation....

What I mean to say is that I agree with your argument that it’s weird - I have to take SIU at his word because he’s the writer of course, so I’m trying to justify it. Perhaps in this case it just doesn’t fit.

There is a stingray like creature but the rest are pretty different. And even then its hard to tell if the creature is the same (I looked for the chapter).

Except for the very weird detail of ruel not even evidencing a lighthouse. I agree in that a scout alone could provide the information for a spearbearer, though it should be less useful than what a lighthouse could do. I suppose that was is weirdest about luel is him being able to simultaneously use an observer and flawlessly throw a spear with no outside help. The distance over which ruel is able to use his observers and throw a spear is so great that even doom was caught off guard.

Agreed, the issue here should be making it fit.... I suppose the most reasonable explanation is that even standard rankers are so skilled that this level of lunacy is plausible. I am still weirded out by the sheer distance ruel is able to cover with his observers though, it kinda makes scouting pointless.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

. I am still weirded out by the sheer distance ruel is able to cover with his observers though, it kinda makes scouting pointless.

You mean Lightbearing, right? I am of the opinion that Leesoo Will eventually fulfill the role of a Lightbearer through Observers too.

It seems even High Rankers never leave their primary positions: Yuri still has observers following her around, even as Fisherman. So, whenever a Scout highranker fulfills the role of a Lightbearer, he does so through his Observers. Only Lightbearers know How to actually operate Lighthouses. If SIU's statement abt HRs holds true (and It prolly does), other classes can act as standby Lightbearers too, and should have their own way of substituting the Lighthouses for that matter.

 

[TheMoa]

IIRC the issue there was karaka hacking bam's pocket. It's not like the observer itself was hovering over bam and following him or it just arbitrarily heard what bam was saying. Lighthouses being used to change or enhance flow control is not all that weird. It's well within the established boundaries of what a lighthouse does. The issue is that luel did this... from a massive distance, without a lighthouse and by himself.

What I understood is that the cage is full of Luel observes. What they are doing isn't directly expanding the range, but pinpointing the exactly position of the target.
Meaning that a "common" Spear bearer mayb have the "strengh of arm", but wouldnt be able to shot on said coordenates. On LuelMoon case, the huge amount os observers would help on that instead of a Lighthouse making calculations.
I could be wrong though

Now, one thing about the Scout going to the front lines scouting is.. it usually on the "outside". Luel is on the cage, he's not scouting.. he's just at his room wanking for Androssi on TV and seeing whatever he sees on his observers.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

I

You mean Lightbearing, right? I am of the opinion that Leesoo Will eventually fulfill the role of a Lightbearer through Observers too.

It seems even High Rankers never leave their primary positions: Yuri still has observers following her around, even as Fisherman. So, whenever a Scout highranker fulfills the role of a Lightbearer, he does so through his Observers. Only Lightbearers know How to actually operate Lighthouses. If SIU's statement abt HRs holds true (and It prolly does), other classes can act as standby Lightbearers too, and should have their own way of substituting the Lighthouses for that matter.

But the reason Yuri had so much trouble getting to the 2nd floor was because they didn't have a lightbearer, if observers could fulfil that role Hachuling could've done so.

 

[kkck]

You mean Lightbearing, right? I am of the opinion that Leesoo Will eventually fulfill the role of a Lightbearer through Observers too.

It seems even High Rankers never leave their primary positions: Yuri still has observers following her around, even as Fisherman. So, whenever a Scout highranker fulfills the role of a Lightbearer, he does so through his Observers. Only Lightbearers know How to actually operate Lighthouses. If SIU's statement abt HRs holds true (and It prolly does), other classes can act as standby Lightbearers too, and should have their own way of substituting the Lighthouses for that matter.

No, scouting. Why is there a need for someone to go scouting if an observer can be hundreds of.... Whichever distance is at play here without risking an scout? Just give the observers to a lightbearer and be done with it.

The issue isn't people having multiple positions. What I find odd is observers working at such an insane range and having such functionality.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

No, scouting. Why is there a need for someone to go scouting if an observer can be hundreds of.... Whichever distance is at play here without risking an scout? Just give the observers to a lightbearer and be done with it.

The issue isn't people having multiple positions. What I find odd is observers working at such an insane range and having such functionality.

Observers can be hacked/fooled by higher lvl observers.

Scenario 1, No scouts: Team send in their observer, unbeknown to them it gets hacked by a higher lvl observer so they believe the area is safe. They proceed, get ambushed and die/get captured/get seriously injured.


Scenario 2, Scouts: Scout is ahead of the team, his observer ahead of him, his observer is hacked so he believes the area is safe, he sends the data to the lightbearer but proceeds alone. He gets ambushed and dies/gets captured. Maybe he sends a signal to his team first, maybe not but even if he doesn't the lack of his next report would let the team know there's a problem.

 

[Wha]

That's a weird comparison considering the 13 month series are still objects. Heck, soul and all one of the 13 months could even be an observer. And even if the stingray was like the guardians at the hell train... wouldn't it still be a sort of living creature? If not at least biological? I suppose it wouldn't qualify as a shineuh in that scenario though.

Ah, that's not what I had in mind when I wrote the post. It's usually the lightbearer that helps aim and increase the team's range. As in, it'd be the light bearer that would help direct shinsoo blasts and spears towards a target. Information brought along by the scout would be necessary to that end of course. I suppose an observer could work with a spear bearer to that effect but in the end it's the lighthouse that provides the aid to aim and whatnot.

I meant that it isn't easy to distinguish between the two in tower of god. Is the black march really a mere object? It got a will of it's own and can speak for herself.
Or emily? Could she be counted as an observer or as an artificial / living creature?


Look at Leeso. He is one of the best scouts we know so far (at his level, of course), yet most of the time his main skill was gathering information. The battle plan against Viole and the info he had gathered for that. Or when he stopped Bam & Khun for dying in the elevator towards Kaiser and telling them how to get there. Similar to Khun.

On the other hand we have guys like Hatsu. Not much information gathering, but fast & strong, perfect for the frontlines.

So they differ strongly in their way of interpreteting their position. They use their unique abilities for their individual scouting style. Since a lot of items can change the tide of battle, it would make sense to get items that suit your style. In which case it would be an information gathering (in whatever way) observer for Leeso & a more battle orientated version for Hatzu (or something like Khun's nemesis had on the hidden floor).

So the difference between what Khun is doing and what Hatzu does is big, but similar compared to Leesoo.
Or Bam's interpretation of the wave controller position- he acts a lot of times as a / like a fisherman.

Since Luel seems to be a hybrid between a scout and a spear bearer, it makes sense to me having observers like that.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

No, scouting. Why is there a need for someone to go scouting if an observer can be hundreds of.... Whichever distance is at play here without risking an scout? Just give the observers to a lightbearer and be done with it.

The issue isn't people having multiple positions. What I find odd is observers working at such an insane range and having such functionality.

Well, observers cannot ambush someone, observers cannot snatch items, and even If some might have those functionalities and even fight, maybe not as good as a Scout that earns enough to pay for them. Karakka for instance doesn't even need observers, and If he did, It would be a weakness: observers can be destroyed or even hacked, they are better off as accessories than Full substitutes.

Mind Sylphid, Ha Cheonli's observers: she uses them for most of the time, but for real danger she goes herself, as when she saved Frok from White's attack.

 

[kkck]

I meant that it isn't easy to distinguish between the two in tower of god. Is the black march really a mere object? It got a will of it's own and can speak for herself.
Or emily? Could she be counted as an observer or as an artificial / living creature?


Look at Leeso. He is one of the best scouts we know so far (at his level, of course), yet most of the time his main skill was gathering information. The battle plan against Viole and the info he had gathered for that. Or when he stopped Bam & Khun for dying in the elevator towards Kaiser and telling them how to get there. Similar to Khun.

On the other hand we have guys like Hatsu. Not much information gathering, but fast & strong, perfect for the frontlines.

So they differ strongly in their way of interpreteting their position. They use their unique abilities for their individual scouting style. Since a lot of items can change the tide of battle, it would make sense to get items that suit your style. In which case it would be an information gathering (in whatever way) observer for Leeso & a more battle orientated version for Hatzu (or something like Khun's nemesis had on the hidden floor).

So the difference between what Khun is doing and what Hatzu does is big, but similar compared to Leesoo.
Or Bam's interpretation of the wave controller position- he acts a lot of times as a / like a fisherman.

Since Luel seems to be a hybrid between a scout and a spear bearer, it makes sense to me having observers like that.

I wouldn't have thought of ignition weapons as conventionally alive at least. It's not like the 13 month series age or anything of the sort. In turn emily doesn't even have a proper corporeal form. Isn't emily just liquid? can't remember.

None of that has much to do with the point I brought up: Luel having that many observers covering such an insane distance. Add to that the apparent functionality which pretty gets into lightbearing territory. Luel does not have any need to actually do any scouting since his observers cover the entirety of the cage apparently and he doesn't need a lightbearer to help out with the information gathered by the observers.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2019 ---

Well, observers cannot ambush someone, observers cannot snatch items, and even If some might have those functionalities and even fight, maybe not as good as a Scout that earns enough to pay for them. Karakka for instance doesn't even need observers, and If he did, It would be a weakness: observers can be destroyed or even hacked, they are better off as accessories than Full substitutes.

Mind Sylphid, Ha Cheonli's observers: she uses them for most of the time, but for real danger she goes herself, as when she saved Frok from White's attack.

I'd think that really depends on the observer. I don't even know what sylphid is, iirc it was introduced as a spear and they do a bunch of arbitrary stuff extremely well. IIRC it had both offensive and defensive functions along with some wind stuff nonsense. Going forward its hard to say whether the distinction will matter.... The wonders of magical technology.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

I'd think that really depends on the observer. I don't even know what sylphid is, iirc it was introduced as a spear and they do a bunch of arbitrary stuff extremely well. IIRC it had both offensive and defensive functions along with some wind stuff nonsense. Going forward its hard to say whether the distinction will matter.... The wonders of magical technology.

True, I thought those were observers, but Sylphid really are Spears. Tho Pedro's Karakka-gifted ancient observer was perfectly able to fight.

I really don't know what SIU Will say about It all. We as readers can only assume from the lore or from evidence on the go. My assumption is what I Said before: observers aren't suited for that, It requires extra skill to have the same result, thus It is a rare use of the Tool. That's only an assumption as that is all we can do.

 

[Wha]

None of that has much to do with the point I brought up: Luel having that many observers covering such an insane distance.

Since Luel seems to be a hybrid between a scout and a spear bearer, it makes sense to me having observers like that.

Add to that the apparent functionality which pretty gets into lightbearing territory

Yes and my point was that it happens from time to time. Like a fisherman with attacks so big that their range comes close to spear bearers. Look at Data Zahard punches or his golden needle - or how Bam uses his shinsoo, sometimes like a fisherman, sometimes like a spear bearer, sometimes like a wave controller. Over all, the difference between a "normal" wave controller and a "normal" spear bearer isn't that clear, at least to me. Both attack from a distance, both can support the fisherman. The main difference would be the weapon of choice (i suspect).

I think we agree that an observer like that can prove useful. Why shouldn't the workshop deliver?
Like a smart phone nowadays has abilities that go into the pc "sphere" - does it make the pc useless?