Discussion What it means to be Devil fruit OVER-DEPENDENT

Hannibal Psyche

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Title: What it means to be Devil fruits dependant
Definition: Devil fruits are objects which make people more dangerous, not more powerful. Strength will always sit within the body of the individual, advantage will however be on the ability user's side, this is why even weak individuals can appear powerful.
There's this phrase going along the lines that "those who incessantly rely on their Devil-fruits are weak". This phrase is ambiguously iterated, and quite often (if not in every case) unfortunately misunderstood. One may ask where such critique comes from and is derived? As I'll say in many situation, all beliefs should be sourced and referenced from the canonical aspect of the story (namely the Manga to avoid controversy :verily).

The image above shows Van Augur's dialogue where he explicitly says he thought Devil fruits users were too focused on their abilities, and become weak in the event their abilities were taken away or nullified which we find Blackbeard to be quite proficient at.

We need to understand what Van Augur truly means by the phrase "concentrating too much on Devil fruits ability". Some have interpreted this as meaning: to constantly base your attacks off your Devil fruit abilities, but is this what's being criticized? We'll have to see what Ace did that led up to praises from Van Augur:
  • First thing Ace did when he initiated his fight was use a Fire attack (Devil fruits based attack).
  • Second thing Ace did after initiation was another Fire attack (Devil fruits based attack).
  • Third thing Ace did was ANOTHER Fire attack (Devil fruits based attack).
So . . . we've just seen that Ace . . . has literally just barraged Blackbeard with attacks off his Devil fruit abilities. As most seem to have interpreted it, shouldn't Ace be criticized for making every attack based off his Abilities? Bare in mind, this is under the assumption that constantly relying on one's ability is what is regarded as weakness. However, we see this is not the case and can bury this idea.

What then is Van Augur saying? Van Augur isn't condemning the use of Devil fruits abilities as even Blackbeard (and every other Devil fruit user) does, and is doing in this fight, he's saying that Devil fruits users who have no base ability referring to:
  • a lack of body strength, speed, and ability to tank are weak and pathetic once their abilities are taken away.
Van Augur's commending Ace for being strong, fast and possessing great durability besides the fact that he's the user of a powerful fruit that'd leave many conceited and rightly so, Pekoms also made this critique in response to Caribou's haughtiness being a Logia user.

Also, If we're honest, can we name any Devil fruits user who doesn't literally have their attacks literally based off their ability:
  1. Whitebeard constantly relied on using his Gura Gura no Mi for literally every attack.
  2. Kizaru has always relied on his Pika Pika no Mi for literally every attack.
  3. Akainu has always relied on his Magu Magu no Mi for literally every attack (even against the great Whitebeard who almost killed him).
  4. Marco has always relied on his Devil fruits for literally every attack.
  5. Joker has always relied on his Ito Ito no Mi for literally every attack.
  6. Law has always relied on his Ope Ope no Mi for literally every attack.
The answer is no, every DF user will and always makes use of Devil fruit abilities literally 100% of the time, so, this is not being criticized.

Associated with neglecting one's own personal strength, this negligence originates from that fact that Devil fruits do not always reflect the strength of a fighter and ultimately make them far more powerful than they'd usually be, which is why they're highly sought after.

For example, Joker's Birdcage is indestructible, but Joker himself isn't indestructible, therefore, this Devil fruits isn't fully reflective of one's own physical power; Luffy on the other hand has an ability, the Gomu Gomu no Mi which stretches further the Stronger he gets, this is an ability that is reflective of Luffy's power.

Not all Devil fruits function like the Gomu Gomu no Mi, so, many Devil fruits tend to make relatively weak individuals strong:
  • Crocodile on losing his intangibility was severely hurt by Luffy show-casing how vulnerable he is without his intangibility.
  • However, he still managed to make a name for himself in the New World, and even challenged Whitebeard despite not even able to use Haki, his success was mostly due to his Devil fruits.
  • Moriah was defeated by Luffy's crew, although, we learnt that he challenged the Yonko after making a name for himself in the New World, had many powerful renowned subordinates and obviously with the Island sized ship, but he made all this progress even without any proficiency with Haki.
  • Enel also expressed the same intolerance and vulnerability once it turned out Luffy could lay hands on him.
  • Oddly enough, we're told had he been a Pirate in the Grand Line, he'd have earned a bounty of 500m despite not being physically very imposing.This drives the point that abilities can carry one to greatness despite not being particularly powerful in person.
  • Bartolomeo's Bari Bari no Mi, it's indestructible while he himself isn't. Strong enough to withstand a King-punch which even a Yonko would fall victim to, and more so if he didn't need an hour to charge it up.
Going off on a slight tangent in the box below, I'm certain there's a reluctance to accept the likes of Crocodile, Enel or Moriah didn't possess Armament Haki, but Oda has actually explained this phenomenon...


What did Rayleigh say concerning unlocking Haki? He said some try and train to learn to use, and NEVER succeed in making use of it. In other words, not everyone is capable of unlocking Haki even if one trains, or attempts to achieve it.

Haki has nothing to do with experience (whether being a 20+ year veteran like Crocodile or Moriah), it's talent. Coby who has little to no experience unlocked it, why? Not because of any experience, simply talent. One must distinguish that there's difference between talent and experience, they're not synonyms. Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable that even the most experienced Pirate wouldn't possess Haki.

Moriah or Crocodile never used Haki even in their most desperate of situations, plots and schemes they'd planned for decades, and had been carrying out, all came to an abrupt halt. If they had Haki, they'd have made us of it. However, limitations will always limit how far one can go, and this is expressed here in their failure to defeat Luffy pre-timeskip.

There's a reason why DFs are sought after, it enables one to become far more dangerous, and appear far more powerful than they'd otherwise be without it.

Nevertheless, this doesn't mean we'd never see Crocodile or Moriah eventually unlock Haki, it'd simply mean they're late bloomers.
The common denominator is, they all possess incredibly advantageous Devil fruits, therefore, it's conclusive that Devil fruits do make people much more powerful than they ought to be. However, the difference between the really strong and mediocre individual is, the Strong are powerful irregardless of possessing abilities while the mediocre are only strong when there's no compromise to their ability.
 
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The way I see it the issue here is that all the stronger fighters around have more than merely a devil fruit. Combat in OP is made out of many factors. The single most important one is haki. Haki is the foundation of combat in OP, it is the what it is built on altogether. Haki is not interchangeable with other skills nor can be compensated for. Then you have DF, perhaps the second most important factor. It makes you unpredictable. And finally physical might and martial arts. DFs can sort of get tangled up with martial arts and physical might because they can dramatically change it though. Realistically speaking the stronger people around will have actual mastery of all four of these. In the grand scheme of things none of them is optional nor can be compensated with the others. Of course, that is not to say you can't be strong without a DF.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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There's a limit to how strong one can get physically, or everyone would be strong, and also, their talent to use Haki is either going to bloom in time, late, or never.

DFs help to compensate for this, or else, Crocodile wouldn't have had a pretty successful career in the Grand Line, nor would Moriah have been able to progress to the point he was renown and capable of challenging a Yonko.

The only reason Enel would have a bounty of 500M were he in the Grand line is because the Electric DF is formidable; Enel was defeated by a pre-Gear 2 Lufy, so it's quite apparent he's not that physically durable or powerful.

Even against a Haki user, he'd still be very capable of defeating them as electrocution or burning can't be measured the way the strength of a punch can, it's an overwhelmingly powerful effect.

How many people could survive the volts emitted by Enel besides Luffy? I doubt many which Oda took into account when determining his bounty in the Grand line. It's also intersting he says he'd be tricky to defeat, but he wouldn't rule it.

Logia abilities not only give one ability for intangibility, they offer dexterity in evading attacks in very unorthodox and unpredictable manners. It's probably why they're the most sought after. It does show how dangerous and how advantageous DFs really are despite being somewhat weak in comparison to the exceptionally powerful.

Not to downplay BB's strength, he's certainly powerful if he can survive attacks when his fruit amplifies his paint, but the moment he obtains the Gura Gura no Mi is the moment he's confident he can be Pirate King which also points to DFs being terribly advantageous.
 
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Crocodile and the rest were defeated at that stage of the story, but it doesn't mean that they were weak per se
I have no doubt Crocodile/Moria knows hardening (despite how pathetic Moria is), problem is at that stage of the story, Haki was not formally introduced yet... Only Haoshoku was introduced during the clash between Shanks and WB

Just because WB died and didn't show hardening, does it mean he can't use it ? Of course not, he can

As for DF dependency, well you're right on a lot of points, Logia offer interesting ways to dodge attacks, I have no doubt for example that Logia users' reflexes may turn to be less than those of Paramecia or let's say Luffy because they don't have to constantly dodge attacks. However, what Auger meant is probably speed, stamina, physical power... Those kind of things, Ace relying on his fire attacks doesn't mean he's dependent, simply his fire attacks are more destructive than just a punch

Not anyone can punch as hard as Luffy is, and not anyone can amplify their strength as Luffy does with his Gears
 

Hannibal Psyche

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I have no doubt Crocodile/Moria knows hardening (despite how pathetic Moria is), problem is at that stage of the story, Haki was not formally introduced yet... Only Haoshoku was introduced during the clash between Shanks and WB


Luffy is 19 years old, and Chinjao tells us the scene in which Garp and Chinjao clashed was 30 years ago, so 11 years before Luffy was born, and 5/6 years before Roger died, we're clearly witnessing the use of Haki. So, in One Piece history, Haki has always existed.

Let's not forget, we were in Paradise, Haki isn't common there and not necessary to survive. It wasn't introduced, but it was there nonetheless. How do you supposed Crocodile lost his hand if Haki was non-existent in the OP world at the time? Crocodile is a Logia.

It would also be atrocious writing by Oda to introduce a character that couldn't be defeated at the very start of his story without a way of defeating them; Smoker was introduced as a mere commander, and there's no way to fight Smoker without Haki. This would more or less cement Smoker as an undefeatable character, and we know well, he's far from that. The very fact Smoker was introduced in Paradise rather than the New World suggests, Oda must have had Haki already conceptualized. Can't start a fire, without water to put it out.

Haki clearly was a concept, just not introduced simply because it was the beginning of the story, and was meant for the later aspect of the story.

Very beginning of the story, we're introduced to Conqueror's Haki, we just had no clue whatsoever because it hadn't yet been explained.

Crocodile and Moriah are relatively weak without their DFs, or else, they'd have Haki, or been at least, more resilient to attacks from pre-skip Luffy who was relatively weak in comparison to the big guns. To have been defeated by Luffy who couldn't use Gear 2nd or barely use it, proves that. Even if Luffy could find a way to make Aokiji tangible before the time-skip for example, he'd still be terribly inferior, his attacks would be mosquito bites.

To suggest that Crocodile or Moriah knew Haki, and didn't use it is inconceivable. It's akin to having a DF, and then forgetting to use it. People who use Haki trained to use it proficiently, they'd use it all the time. Even Enel made use of Observation Haki, neither Crocodile nor Moriah did even when backed to a corner. No one gets backed to a corner, and doesn't pull out their best shots. It would just be bad writing by Oda as well.

Just because WB died and didn't show hardening, does it mean he can't use it ? Of course not, he can
He most likely did use it. We just weren't aware of it.

Only reason we're able to recognize Haki is because Luffy has been taught it. We only know things that the SHs know. Once Luffy understood Haki, we began to recognize and understand it. It's not just something that was suddenly implemented. Luffy and the SHs are the narrative's main point of view and basis of understanding.
 

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Luffy is 19 years old, and Chinjao tells us the scene in which Garp and Chinjao clashed was 30 years ago, so 11 years before Luffy was born, and 5/6 years before Roger died, we're clearly witnessing the use of Haki. So, in One Piece history, Haki has always existed.

Let's not forget, we were in Paradise, Haki isn't common there and not necessary to survive. It wasn't introduced, but it was there nonetheless. How do you supposed Crocodile lost his hand if Haki was non-existent in the OP world at the time? Crocodile is a Logia.

It would also be atrocious writing by Oda to introduce a character that couldn't be defeated at the very start of his story without a way of defeating them; Smoker was introduced as a mere commander, and there's no way to fight Smoker without Haki. This would more or less cement Smoker as an undefeatable character, and we know well, he's far from that. The very fact Smoker was introduced in Paradise rather than the New World suggests, Oda must have had Haki already conceptualized. Can't start a fire, without water to put it out.

Haki clearly was a concept, just not introduced simply because it was the beginning of the story, and was meant for the later aspect of the story.

Very beginning of the story, we're introduced to Conqueror's Haki, we just had no clue whatsoever because it hadn't yet been explained.

Crocodile and Moriah are relatively weak without their DFs, or else, they'd have Haki, or been at least, more resilient to attacks from pre-skip Luffy who was relatively weak in comparison to the big guns. To have been defeated by Luffy who couldn't use Gear 2nd or barely use it, proves that. Even if Luffy could find a way to make Aokiji tangible before the time-skip for example, he'd still be terribly inferior, his attacks would be mosquito bites.

To suggest that Crocodile or Moriah knew Haki, and didn't use it is inconceivable. It's akin to having a DF, and then forgetting to use it. People who use Haki trained to use it proficiently, they'd use it all the time. Even Enel made use of Observation Haki, neither Crocodile nor Moriah did even when backed to a corner. No one gets backed to a corner, and doesn't pull out their best shots. It would just be bad writing by Oda as well.



He most likely did use it. We just weren't aware of it.

Only reason we're able to recognize Haki is because Luffy has been taught it. We only know things that the SHs know. Once Luffy understood Haki, we began to recognize and understand it. It's not just something that was suddenly implemented. Luffy and the SHs are the narrative's main point of view and basis of understanding.
Not really, just because Haki was used way before in the OP timeline doesn't mean Oda thought about it from the beginning, that's a falacious argument
And not really, we were not introduced to Haoshoku Haki properly, that was more an intimidation from Shanks rather than pure Haoshoku Haki (Sea King didn't lose consciousness, no foaming etc)

Crocodile and Moria are both experienced pirates and famous as well and became Shichibukai, both of them attempted to beat a Yonko, unless you're suggesting that they went to attack them without knowledge of Haki while the likes of Margaret and Kuja pirates know of it... That just doesn't make sense in the slightest at all

If Moria and Crocodile used Haki at that stage, that would've meant the death of Luffy... Luffy won against Enel for example simply because he was rubber and got underestimated a lot, imagine the Crocodile fight if he used Observation Haki or Armament, the damage that Luffy would have sustained would've been way too great

You're giving Oda here too much credit and making him sound as if he thought about every single thing including Haki, which I really don't think is the case
 

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And not really, we were not introduced to Haoshoku Haki properly, that was more an intimidation from Shanks rather than pure Haoshoku Haki (Sea King didn't lose consciousness, no foaming etc)
Actually, you're quite wrong in that regard... there are instances where Haoshoku was used, and consciousness wasn't lost such as:



And here too.

that was more an intimidation from Shanks rather than pure Haoshoku Haki (Sea King didn't lose consciousness, no foaming etc)


Actually, CoC/Haoshoku by definition is the power to intimidate, weak characters just get intimidated into unconsciousness.

All translations even warn that it intimidates if not brought under control when not trained to use adeptly.

Interestingly enough, the Gorgon sisters explicitly say "nothing to be afraid of" after Luffy used CoC, why? because it intimidates, makes one fear. Also, looking back at that panel, why would the Gorgon sisters even do what Luffy says, a man, when they live in a society that's misandrist? totally against men. They took orders from a male without Boa Hancock's consent, and even worse, in their presence. That was unequivocally an expression of fear.

Crocodile and Moria are both experienced pirates and famous as well and became Shichibukai, both of them attempted to beat a Yonko, unless you're suggesting that they went to attack them without knowledge of Haki while the likes of Margaret and Kuja pirates know of it... That just doesn't make sense in the slightest at all

If Moria and Crocodile used Haki at that stage, that would've meant the death of Luffy... Luffy won against Enel for example simply because he was rubber and got underestimated a lot, imagine the Crocodile fight if he used Observation Haki or Armament, the damage that Luffy would have sustained would've been way too great

You're giving Oda here too much credit and making him sound as if he thought about every single thing including Haki, which I really don't think is the case
It's far more questionable to believe that Enel, Crocodile and Moriah who were backed into a corner, could use Haki, but couldn't. That just makes no sense at all.

And this claim about underestimating is illogical too. You can only underestimate for so long, that phase passes on very quickly.
  1. Moriah absorbing a 1,000 shadows is underestimating?
  2. Crocodile using a poison that paralyses the opponent along with his most powerful attacks is underestimating?
  3. Enel using Amaru against Luffy is an example of underestimating the opponent?
  4. Joker using his God-Thread attacks to kill Luffy is an example of underestimation?
Underestimating merely exists momentarily which is when the opponent proves he's worth being taken seriously, and then one takes the opponent seriously. At no point did any of the characters you mention not take Luffy seriously. In the beginning they did, initially he became a problem and they had no choice but to take him seriously.

To attribute underestimating as why Luffy won his battles can only be validated if the battle wasn't extensive. If they dared Luffy to attack them with his best attack thinking it wouldn't hurt, and it knocked them out, then your claim may be valid, but it clearly isn't the case.

You don't underestimate an opponent through out an entire battle, it's not like they said I'll fight you with my eyes closed, they fought to the best of their abilities.

Simply put, if they possessed Haki, they'd have used it. Fact is, they don't.

Not really, just because Haki was used way before in the OP timeline doesn't mean Oda thought about it from the beginning, that's a falacious argument
Do you think Oda just randomly started writing One Piece without an idea of the beginning, middle and end? doubt it'd have been serialized or made into an Anime if it wasn't extensively thought out. Only difference is, small changes here and there which I'm pretty sure I can quote Oda on saying in an interview.

Also, why would a Logia exist if there was no way to touch it? Makes no sense, it's not to do with giving Oda too much credit, it's just logical, no writer can be that incompetent. A low ranked Logia that couldn't be defeated very early on in the series? that should clearly imply Haki or ways to deal with such characters existed. It's not like you can dab blood/water on your fist like against Crocodile, and render him tangible.

And yes, the very fact it's consistent with OP time-line means it did exist even when Luffy defeated them. A good story is supposed to be consistent all along the way from past to future.

Again, they were in Paradise, not the New World.
 

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For me, Crocodile lost against luffy because he underestimated his punching strength and was too confident on the protection that his devil fruit provided (especially since luffy couldn't use haki). His guard was really down. So when he started being hit by luffy's bloodied fists, it was too late for him to retaliate as the pain from the hits was too much to bear. Also he lost quickly at that point because of the plot, it was already the 3rd round so luffy had to win. And of course if you think about it, at that time battles were pretty simple and straightforward, with most of the present concepts were not introduced at the time, such as haki.

Also there are some inconsistencies with power levels sometimes, for instance Caesar receiving luffy's gear second attacks without any significant damage (during their first and second bouts), while the same attack destroyed a pacifista...no matter how you look at it, its inconsistent...
 
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Hannibal Psyche

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For me, Crocodile lost against luffy because he underestimated his punching strength and was too confident on the protection that his devil fruit provided (especially when luffy couldn't use haki). His guard was really down. So when he started being hit by luffy's bloodied fists, it was too late for him to retaliate as the pain from the hits was too much to bear. Also he lost quickly at that point because of the plot, it was already the 3rd round so luffy had to win. And of course if you think about it, at that time battles were pretty simple and straightforward, with most of the present concepts were not introduced at the time, such as haki.

It's impossible to underestimate something you've already experienced.

If you were going to run 10,000m, you might assume it's not as hard as it sounds, but experience will tell you otherwise when you start running that 10,000m. Experience eliminates underestimating.

Crocodile already felt Luffy's power, he experienced it, so there really is no valid way to attribute "underestimation".

If one wants to define underestimating, a prime example would be Caesar knocking out Luffy + Smoker + Robin + Tashigi + Franky at the same time. Does this mean Caesar is superior to all 5 characters? no, they just got taken off-guard and, he was underestimated.

What happened to Caesar once Luffy stopped underestimating him? or, what happened to Luffy once he learned from experience? did Caesar require all 5 individuals to gang on on him? nope, Luffy was just far more cautious, and clearly showed he was vastly superior to Caesar in both speed and strength ultimately concluding in a victory.

Crocodile wasn't defeated by surprise, so therefore, the underestimating excuse/guard-down excuse doesn't stand. Crocodile fought back with his best attacks, and still failed to defeat Luffy. Pretty sure we have at least, 3-4 chapters of Crocodile and Luffy fighting it out.

Take a look at the SBS:
  • Crocodile set his eyes on Alabasta at the age of 30, after losing to Whitebeard.
  • For 16 years, he planned meticulously to overthrow the monarchy in Alabasta.
  • For 16 years, Baroque works was being formed.
  • Why? so he could take over Alabasta, start a coup and eventually own an Ancient Weapon.
Are you trying to rationalize that a sociopath of this level, patient enough to plan for 16 years, would simply underestimate his opponent and let his entire enterprise be foiled so easily? Crocodile's failure wasn't underestimating Luffy, he stopped underestimating him once he recognized his power, or else, he wouldn't have fought him seriously or extensively, he already learnt from experience that Luffy was a powerful opponent; Crocodile's failure was simply being weak physically.

To even be hurt by punches from Luffy before Marineford or pre-G2, show he was weak. Nothing Luffy threw at him would hurt anyone physically sturdy.

If Crocodile were a Haki user, he'd surely have used it there. If his body were strong, he simply wouldn't have been able to be hurt by Luffy. Luffy couldn't even hurt Aokiji at that time even if Aokiji weren't a Logia, he's an Admiral, he's far too physically powerful.

One thing that's under-appreciated so much is, Luffy was already significantly powerful by the time he left the Island, his 3 years of training wasn't for show.

Also there are some inconsistancies with power levels sometimes, for instance Caesar receiving luffy's gear second attacks without any significant damage (during their first and second bouts), while the same attack destroyed a pacifista...no matter how you look at it, its inconsistent...
What inconsistencies? where was it stated or made out, that Caesar wasn't as durable as the Pacifista? where does it suggest that he couldn't be sturdier? and I'm pretty certain Luffy's G2 attacks hurt Caesar significantly.
 

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It's impossible to underestimate something you've already experienced.
That depends on individuals...there are people who are being extremely careful and learn from their experience, and those who let their exploits get over their heads with the impression that they are invincible. Crocodile was of the latter type, and it's pretty clear in the alabasta arc.

Example1
Example2
Example3
Example4
Example5

All these examples illustrate how Crocodile, in all their 3 encounters, sees luffy just as a crazy rogue who doesn't know his place. You can see in example 5 how surprised Crocodile was after receiving all those hits from Luffy, he clearly didn't count on that.
It's true that Crocodile was not as physically strong as he should've been (based on his achievements and reputation), but that could be explained by two things : First, because of his time spent plotting in Alabasta he forgot to train his body, and was overly dependent on his DF, just as you've said. Second, plot hole !
So what I'm trying to say is, based on reputations and achievements, Crocodile should know Haki and is no pushover. Again the reasons why he lost was because he underestimated and didn't acknowledge the strength of his foe (as shown above), and because Luffy had plot armor...their last fight is only 2 chapters long...

Are you trying to rationalize that a sociopath of this level, patient enough to plan for 16 years, would simply underestimate his opponent and let his entire enterprise be foiled so easily? Crocodile's failure wasn't underestimating Luffy, he stopped underestimating him once he recognized his power, or else, he wouldn't have fought him seriously or extensively, he already learnt from experience that Luffy was a powerful opponent; Crocodile's failure was simply being weak physically.
I don't claim anything, it actually happened. Crocodile, no matter how cunning and patient, underestimated the fact that Luffy could defeat him in battle. The very thought was luffable, but that's what caused his downfall. If he took luffy's strength into account, then he would've started setting mind traps (like Moria did when he tricked luffy using his shadow) and avoid a direct confrontation. Or really ensure that Luffy was dead before heading off...But he didn't.


One thing that's under-appreciated so much is, Luffy was already significantly powerful by the time he left the Island, his 3 years of training wasn't for show.
Yes I agree with you. Luffy was already very strong from the beggining, as he only started going all out in Enies lobby.

If one wants to define underestimating, a prime example would be Caesar knocking out Luffy + Smoker + Robin + Tashigi + Franky at the same time. Does this mean Caesar is superior to all 5 characters? no, they just got taken off-guard and, he was underestimated.

What happened to Caesar once Luffy stopped underestimating him? or, what happened to Luffy once he learned from experience? did Caesar require all 5 individuals to gang on on him? nope, Luffy was just far more cautious, and clearly showed he was vastly superior to Caesar in both speed and strength ultimately concluding in a victory.

Crocodile wasn't defeated by surprise, so therefore, the underestimating excuse/guard-down excuse doesn't stand. Crocodile fought back with his best attacks, and still failed to defeat Luffy. Pretty sure we have at least, 3-4 chapters of Crocodile and Luffy fighting it out.
Actually that's exactly what happened between Crocodile and Luffy, nice example ^^ If truly the statements of the "underestimating" and "plot" are invalid, then it means that luffy was already strong enough to venture through the new world at the time he beat Crocodile. Of course he was nowhere near that level at that time.

What inconsistencies? where was it stated or made out, that Caesar wasn't as durable as the Pacifista? where does it suggest that he couldn't be sturdier? and I'm pretty certain Luffy's G2 attacks hurt Caesar significantly.
So basically you want to say that Caesar, a mere scientist who ate an OP fruit, is as tough as a Pacifista. Meaning that if you handcuff him with sea stone, and you have pre-time skip luffy, zoro and sanji attack him simultaneouslywith their "Canon" attack, it will just scratch him...I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense.

P.S: Oh forgot to add that even Doflamingo said that the strawhats should not be underestimated and that those who did had it coming to them...he was clearly referring to Crocodile...
 
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That depends on individuals...there are people who are being extremely careful and learn from their experience, and those who let their exploits get over their heads with the impression that they are invincible. Crocodile was of the latter type, and it's pretty clear in the alabasta arc.

Example1
Example2
Example3
Example4
Example5

All these examples illustrate how Crocodile, in all their 3 encounters, sees luffy just as a crazy rogue who doesn't know his place. You can see in example 5 how surprised Crocodile was after receiving all those hits from Luffy, he clearly didn't count on that.
It's true that Crocodile was not as physically strong as he should've been (based on his achievements and reputation), but that could be explained by two things : First, because of his time spent plotting in Alabasta he forgot to train his body, and was overly dependent on his DF, just as you've said. Second, plot hole !
So what I'm trying to say is, based on reputations and achievements, Crocodile should know Haki and is no pushover. Again the reasons why he lost was because he underestimated and didn't acknowledge the strength of his foe (as shown above), and because Luffy had plot armor...their last fight is only 2 chapters long...

Source: Chapter 204

You're making an error.

Not every surprise can be regarded as underestimating.

There's the surprise that comes from judgement possibly by appearance or attitude during a first encounter, that's the initial basis by which underestimating an opponent is pointed out, but that element of surprises is quickly dissolved by the time the opponent has made a point that, such preconceptions are sorely mistaken.

Then, there's in-between exchanges where the odd attack is successful and seemingly takes the opponent by the surprise, it's not surprise, just poor reaction, but that's just proof this is an exchange between characters of equal strength. It may appear as underestimating, but it isn't. It's not like when Akainu hit Whitebeard, or when Whitebeard hit Akainu, it was because they underestimated each other, they're just 2 powerful individuals.


Source: 204

Source: Chapter 204

Crocodile may have been overconfident simply because he was a Logia, he didn't think Luffy could touch him, however, we see that Luffy proves that by mixing blood with his fist, hitting a Logia of his nature is possible. The scenes above are the final moments in their encounters, and he even questions what can he do without water, why? because in previous encounters, Luffy proved his strength, or else, Crocodile wouldn't be worried about his ability to physically touch him.

He never underestimated Luffy's power, he merely underestimated:
  • Luffy's ability to touch him. Their first close encounter was with "Water Luffy", and water is limited, there's only so much Luffy could have done with a finite source of water. That's why even in their final encounter and seeing Luffy without water, he asks, what can you accomplish without water?

Source: Chapter 209

The point is ultimately made here, 5 chapters later, Crocodile is still having a difficult time with Luffy and is twitching with pain. The fact remains:
  • How does a strong individual, find the punch of a pre-skip Luffy painful? should be mosquito bites even if he were being taken off-guard.
In fact, he's clearly acknowledged Luffy's power because he asks, where is he drawing his strength from? and this is even after he's being poisoned by a paralytic agent. You don't question strength, if the strength isn't there just like you don't question persistence, if persistence isn't present, or incessant.

First, because of his time spent plotting in Alabasta he forgot to train his body, and was overly dependent on his DF, just as you've said. Second, plot hole !
So what I'm trying to say is, based on reputations and achievements, Crocodile should know Haki and is no pushover. Again the reasons why he lost was because he underestimated and didn't acknowledge the strength of his foe (as shown above), and because Luffy had plot armor...their last fight is only 2 chapters long...
That's an excuse. He forgot to train his body? would you kindly show where that was ever stated in the Manga?

Is he too unintelligent to multitask? Where did every other character get the time to train whilst making grandiose plans?

Joker planned for just as long as Crocodile, did he forget to train his body too? That really is just an excuse.

What about Rayleigh who quit being a Pirate, or Chinjao, what about them? Crocodile is, and has always been an active Pirate. Just because he's making plans is not a valid reason, or excuse as to why he was defeated. He simply is overestimated and not assessed objectively.

He didn't even use Observation Haki which is merely the power to predict the opponent's move and evade. I guess, Crocodile was simply too stupid to even use Observation Haki? I think not, he simply lacked the ability.

Veterans are not that negligent. Crocodile clearly fought to the best of his abilities, and it wasn't enough. You're insinuating that a character that is:
  • Breathing heavily
  • Dodging attacks
  • Attacking back
wasn't trying? with all the above expressed, it contradicts such a notion as "not trying", or underestimating.

If he was no push-over, nothing that Luffy could do even with the ability to touch him, should have been ultimately rendered futile. Crocodile should have surpassed him in both speed and strength, but it's clear they were pretty much evenly matched with Luffy slightly stronger. A poisoned Luffy was still very capable of fighting while Crocodile had not suffered any such handicapping.

Actually that's exactly what happened between Crocodile and Luffy, nice example ^^ If truly the statements of the "underestimating" and "plot" are invalid, then it means that luffy was already strong enough to venture through the new world at the time he beat Crocodile. Of course he was nowhere near that level at that time.
Actually, no, that's wrong. Crocodile wasn't defeated by surprise like the SHs and Marines were at Punk-Hazard:
  • SHs and Marines were defeated by an attack they never saw coming, the ability to rid the air of oxygen.
  • Crocodile was defeated by attacks he could see coming. Big difference.
And the very fact he defeated Crocodile proves had he met Crocodile in the New World, Luffy would still have been capable of defeating him had he been utilizing bloodied fists. Crocodile's physical state just isn't noteworthy, or those attacks should not have made that much of an impact is the fact of the matter at the end of the day. You don't suddenly get a power-up just because you're in the New World, however strong he is, is simply how strong he is.

And there's a difference between being able to take on Crocodile, and then take on the New World, Crocodile isn't the New World. The only reason Crocodile was formidable is simply because he lacked a Logia ability.


Source: Chapter 441

In fact, Teach asked Ace when was the last time he got hit, a New world Pirate, why? because he's a Logia. Logias still have great advantages because their power isn't brute force, but effect that isn't measure by strength. This is clearly why Crocodile was formidable.

Brute strength can mitigate weaker strength, brute strength can't mitigate or render effects such as burns, electrocution, or dehydration useless. Even Whitebeard without the ability to touch Crocodile, would be defeated by Crocodile.

So basically you want to say that Caesar, a mere scientist who ate an OP fruit, is as tough as a Pacifista. Meaning that if you handcuff him with sea stone, and you have pre-time skip luffy, zoro and sanji attack him simultaneouslywith their "Canon" attack, it will just scratch him...I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense.
Actually, no, that is what we saw. That is what Oda himself drew, so unless you're the one who dictates how things should be illustrated for Oda, and he does otherwise, you really have no basis or merit by which to say, this portrayal is wrong.

And what's wrong with a scientists being powerful? Sanji is a mere cook.

If you take attacks that would destroy a Pacifista, it means you're sturdier than a Pacifista, that's visual verification, therefore, what's there to debate about?

P.S: Oh forgot to add that even Doflamingo said that the strawhats should not be underestimated and that those who did had it coming to them...he was clearly referring to Crocodile...


Pretty sure that was stated by Law, what Joker actually said was, be weary of Luffy as he possesses CoC.

Even if they were underestimated, it was still initial.

Fact still remains that:
  1. Crocodile fought to the best of his abilities, used his poison to seal the deal and failed, and even after it was clear Luffy was capable of touching him, he still lacked the speed and strength to evade attacks from a pre-skip Luffy.
  2. Lucci used his best abilities whilst fighting Luffy, and still lost.
  3. Moriah even absorbed a 1,000 shadows in attempt to defeat Luffy, how does fighting with a 1,000 shadows equate to underestimating? In fact, he absorbed way too many for him to control, that's an act of desperation.
Underestimating can only be initial, not on-going. You touch fire, you get burned, next time, you're far more careful. Underestimation is exactly like that, it's initial.

Finally, plot-armour? No. If Plot armour is the case, then Luffy would have defeated Aokiji, Sentoumaru, Kizaru, Kuma and Akainu when:
  1. Ace died right in-front of him.
  2. And his Nakama were being sent flying across the world and defeated 1 by 1.
If there was ever a time the all-mighty shounen plot-power was to kick in, those were the moments, yet, he was left in a pitiful state and rendered defeated both physically and emotionally. Luffy never defeats opponents beyond his reach, or else, he'd never have been able to push them to their limits or having them exhausted and bleeding profusely. Lucci was left recovering for months iirc.
 

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Look, Crocodile was clearly not taking Luffy seriously, even after their second encounter, look at example 4 in my previous post. it's only when he started getting punched by Luffy that he realized his strength and was getting surprised (as you've shown above, or in example 5). It was already too late by then, Luffy was getting the upper hand and a few pages later he got defeated by gomu-gomu no storm. Luffy got underestimated up till the point of no return by Crocodile and nobody can deny that (I mean its there in the examples I've shown).

Now why was Crocodile so affected and hurt by Luffy's attacks ? And why should I even ask this question ? after all the answer is clear and simple : Crocodile's body is weak and not durable and Luffy is stronger. This is just one explanation among others. It is also your statement, and it is technically not wrong.

However if you analyse things carefully, it does have some nasty implications on future events .Crocodile was shown by Oda to be one of the superpowers of the world. He was quite feared and was even acknowledged by the other infamous pirates, such as Doflamingo or Blackbeard. Nobody ever stated he was weak or not durable. Remember in impel down when Crocodile teamed up with Luffy and the rest, Ivankov stated that he knows his weakness in order to keep him in check. If crocodile was truly weak Ivankov or Jinbei would've been enough to knock him out since they use Haki, without abusing his "weakness". Heck, he was even put in level 6. Now what I find wrong is this : How can there be such a wide gap of physical strength between Crocodile and Doflamingo ? or even between Jinbei ? Crocodile being beaten like that by pre-time skip luffy really puts him in the lower tiers, i.e. people who wouldn't last a second in the war between the marines and whitebeard for instance, and that goes against the fact that he participated later in the war, where he was regarded as a threat.

This is why I associated his defeat against Luffy with two things : his overconfidence (which led him to believe he was untouchable and underestimating his foe), and plot reasons in order to advance the story.

Ultimately we can just hope to see a battle involving Crocodile and some other big shot in the future, in order to really gauge up his strength.

Also to stay in topic, I do agree that crocodile is a good example of someone DF over-dependent.
 
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Hannibal Psyche

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New Look, Crocodile was clearly not taking Luffy seriously, even after their second encounter, look at example 4 in my previous post. it's only when he started getting punched by Luffy that he realized his strength and was getting surprised (as you've shown above, or in example 5). It was already too late by then, Luffy was getting the upper hand and a few pages later he got defeated by gomu-gomu no storm. Luffy got underestimated up till the point of no return by Crocodile and nobody can deny that (I mean its there in the examples I've shown).

Now why was Crocodile so affected and hurt by Luffy's attacks ? And why should I even ask this question ? after all the answer is clear and simple : Crocodile's body is weak and not durable and Luffy is stronger. This is just one explanation among others. It is also your statement, and it is technically not wrong.
He did take him seriously, or else, we wouldn't have scenes where Luffy was literally on the brink of death, not once but twice. If Crocodile wasn't taking Luffy seriusly, he'd never have recognized his strength.

Also, it is the only explanation. From the very first fight, he even had Crocodile in pain from the mere strength and power of his grip. Luffy is just that powerful.

However if you analyse things carefully, it does have some nasty implications on future events .Crocodile was shown by Oda to be one of the superpowers of the world. He was quite feared and was even acknowledged by the other infamous pirates, such as Doflamingo or Blackbeard. Nobody ever stated he was weak or not durable. Remember in impel down when Crocodile teamed up with Luffy and the rest, Ivankov stated that he knows his weakness in order to keep him in check. If crocodile was truly weak Ivankov or Jinbei would've been enough to knock him out since they use Haki, without abusing his "weakness". Heck, he was even put in level 6. Now what I find wrong is this : How can there be such a wide gap of physical strength between Crocodile and Doflamingo ? or even between Jinbei ? Crocodile being beaten like that by pre-time skip luffy really puts him in the lower tiers, i.e. people who wouldn't last a second in the war between the marines and whitebeard for instance, and that goes against the fact that he participated later in the war, where he was regarded as a threat.
There are really no implications. First of all, Shichibukai is not a rank, it's a title given to Pirates who will side with the government in order to deter people from turning to piracy. BUggy is not powerful, he just has a reputation, and that's why he's a Shichibukai. It's not like the Vice-Admiral or Admiral rank which requires a certain level of power, it's merely a title of influence that the government use to deter Pirates. Shichibukai can be weak, they don't necessarily need to be powerful. There really is no implication with Crocodile being defeated.

To even drive the point, Fujitora and Marines want to do away with Shichibukai system is proof they know they can handle themselves without the need of Shichibukai. Simply is just a position used to deter people from piracy, a form of intimidation.

Nobody ever stated he was weak or not durable. Remember in impel down when Crocodile teamed up with Luffy and the rest, Ivankov stated that he knows his weakness in order to keep him in check. If crocodile was truly weak Ivankov or Jinbei would've been enough to knock him out since they use Haki, without abusing his "weakness". Heck, he was even put in level 6. Now what I find wrong is this : How can there be such a wide gap of physical strength between Crocodile and Doflamingo ? or even between Jinbei ? Crocodile being beaten like that by pre-time skip luffy really puts him in the lower tiers, i.e. people who wouldn't last a second in the war between the marines and whitebeard for instance, and that goes against the fact that he participated later in the war, where he was regarded as a threat.
Difference in strength between Joker and Crocodile is so clear. Again, it's exactly because Crocodile is a Logia that he's a threat even though he's relatively weak. Why do you think Ace's Mera Mera no Mi was so sought after?

We saw how Crocodile was so easily thwarted aside by Jozu, while Joker with little to no effort restrained Jozu co,mpletely and even used him as a platform to perch on whilst making conversation with Crocodile, and Jozu couldn't do anything. Joker even wanted him as a henchman, not even an equal.

And Ivankov didn't say he knows his weakness, he said he knew his secret. Nonetheless, we still see that Luffy who was vastly inferior to Jinbei and Ivankov was good enough to keep Crocodile at bay in his attempt to get to Whitebeard. That clearly didn't speak highly of his strength in comparison with Luffy.

More so, if Crocodile can be stopped by water which doesn't increase the strength of attacks, how much more by a Haki user which not only allows the Logia to be touched, but increases the strength of the attack?

Ultimately we can just hope to see a battle involving Crocodile and some other big shot in the future, in order to really gauge up his strength.


We do already have a gauge of his strength, we saw his performance against Luffy, and it's not like he didn't exert himself or didn't try. He even used poison and still failed.

However, that's not to say we wouldn't see Crocodile improve in the New World. Smoker has improved, but at this point, he's no match for Luffy.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---


The panel above shows that Perona was able to take down:
  1. Luffy
  2. Zoro
  3. Franky
Luffy, Zoro and Franky are obviously superior to Perona in strength, however, due to a powerful DF, she's able to literally defeat the Monster trio in one fell swoop. Realistically, without such an inconveniently powerful ability, Nami could probably have defeated her.

Like I'v said, DFs do not always reflect the strength of the user. Perona without this DF would never be able to take down any of the Monster Trio.




Another example.

Whitebeard was the strongest man alive pre-skip.

Magellan with 1 attack defeated Blackbeard and his ENTIRE crew, with just 1 attack.

Whitebeard, Sengoku & Garp couldn't even manage to defeat Blackbeard with 1 attack; even the multiple attacks didn't do the job.

If we exercise the method of thinking that accepts "DF always reflecting one's power", then Magellan in ones eyes must believe the strongest man in the world is not Whitebeard, but Magellan; however, such thinking is erroneous.

Magellan possesses an ability that leaves anyone whose made contact completely incapacitated, and at death's door... except they get the antidote. These are not abilities exhibiting brute strength, but biological effects, or even far more abstract in many cases like the "Shadow DF".

Possessing a powerful ability is not the same thing as being strong, how, it can give a semblance of being strong.

Even if Magellan possesses a powerful ability, it's clear Whitebeard is still stronger because we've seen his strength, speed and his durability at Marineford which shows the gap in superiority between both characters.

Even Whitebeard or Shanks, or Blackbeard would die if they made contact with Magellan's ability, not necessarily because he's stronger, but because of how powerful and potent an effect the ability possesses.


Just to reiterate, over-dependence on DFs is not castigating the act of using one's ability. What it's reprimanding is the lack of physical feats referring to lack of physical self honed strength, speed & durability. However, many neglect these because some DFs can really bring one close to invincibility despite weakness.
 

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Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention Foxxy, he was the prime example of being super weak if you take away his DF.

Almost all the characters you mentioned actually have some measure of strength/fighting skill that they use their DF to augment or enhance. Law and Whitebeard have their swordsmanship/Bisento skills, and an inhuman amount of durability, Kizaru, Marco, and Dofla still have their powerful kicks, Luffy and Akainu still have powerful punches etc. Just because these people use the abilities that are biologically part of them while fighting to kill/not die doesn't mean they are weak or overly relying on their fruits. It just makes them smart fighters who really want to kill their opponents/not get killed.
 

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What are we comparing here? People who have obtained devil fruit abilities and overly use them but lack the physical strength and the ability to perform, or those who has devil fruit power and only rely solely on it but neglect their physical training or further enhancement of it?

Everyone has the innate survival skill, even a baby is able to show it. For illustration purpose - babies cry when they are frightened and their cries will catch their mothers' attention. Mothers are like babies' protectors.

If people are able to make use of the full potential of their devil fruit ability and continue to explore and strengthen it to their own advantage, it will be a good thing. When it comes to battles, the likelihood of winning will be higher.

As good as a devil fruit can be, it also has its weakness. When it is discovered by the enemies, then it will be a setback for the user. In times like this, if the person in question is diligent (and smart) enough to have a continual routine of physical and mental training, and other skills that he/she may possess, then there may be a possibility of overturning the weakness to strength if one knows how to utilise accurately, especially at the precise moment of life and death. Obviously there are other elements involved in a battle and winning it. But to stay on the topic of abilities and skills, we do have people who do not have the muscle, but they have good brains. Smart ones utilise everything that they have - devil fruit ability, physical strength and mental skills - to protect self and others. It is like our "street smarts" in our society. :)
 

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Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention Foxxy, he was the prime example of being super weak if you take away his DF.

Almost all the characters you mentioned actually have some measure of strength/fighting skill that they use their DF to augment or enhance. Law and Whitebeard have their swordsmanship/Bisento skills, and an inhuman amount of durability, Kizaru, Marco, and Dofla still have their powerful kicks, Luffy and Akainu still have powerful punches etc. Just because these people use the abilities that are biologically part of them while fighting to kill/not die doesn't mean they are weak or overly relying on their fruits. It just makes them smart fighters who really want to kill their opponents/not get killed.
I think you misunderstood what I said or what I was getting across when I was talking about these characters. This is what you read and where you most likely got the wrong idea:
Also, If we're honest, can we name any Devil fruits user who doesn't literally have their attacks literally based off their ability:
  1. Whitebeard constantly relied on using his Gura Gura no Mi for literally every attack.
  2. Kizaru has always relied on his Pika Pika no Mi for literally every attack.
  3. Akainu has always relied on his Magu Magu no Mi for literally every attack (even against the great Whitebeard who almost killed him).
  4. Marco has always relied on his Devil fruits for literally every attack.
  5. Joker has always relied on his Ito Ito no Mi for literally every attack.
  6. Law has always relied on his Ope Ope no Mi for literally every attack.
I wasn't saying they are "over-dependent" for using their abilities. The point I was getting across is "overuse of DF" doesn't mean attacking via DF all the time, it simply means being weak outside of DF power, and Foxy or Buggy would be perfect examples of this.

Like I pointed out very early on, Van Augur said DF users who lose their ability were weak and pathetic once ability is taken away, but he says the opposite is true in Ace's case even though 100% of the attacks he threw at Blackbeard were DF-based. What Van Augur meant was, Ace is physically strong, fast and durable, therefore, he's not overly-dependent.

If Joker or Law or Whitebeard were overly dependent on their abilities, we wouldn't see how durable they were, and would be easily defeated, but we know otherwise.

Other point being driven is, abilities can make one stronger than they'd normally appear to be, and that's why I've brought up characters like Perona, Buggy, Foxy, Crocodile and Moriah (who lost to pre-skip Luffy), they just possess extremely powerful abilities.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
What are we comparing here? People who have obtained devil fruit abilities and overly use them but lack the physical strength and the ability to perform, or those who has devil fruit power and only rely solely on it but neglect their physical training or further enhancement of it?
These 2 would essentially be the same thing.

There's no DF user who doesn't use their abilities 100% of the time, so, if I were to say Whitebeard for example was DF dependent, I'd be wrong because he's physically very strong, durable and has trained his physically parameters to the highest of standards. It means his strength isn't simply as a result of a powerful DF.

What I'm saying is people who possess DFs, but are physically weak, are people who can be regarded as DF dependent going by what Van Augur has assessed being DF dependency as. To simplify what I' trying to get across, physically strong people (irregardless of when they get a DF) are not DF dependent; physically weak people (irregardless of when they get a DF) are DF dependent.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
SBS Volume 79 - Click here to read.


Explicit statement from Oda himself... that Devil fruits don't always reflect, equate (or correlate) to the user's own strength.

So, it is indeed something that should be taken into account when determining the strength of a character.
 

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I personally wouldn't say Croc was weak cause he got beat by Luffy. The fight was centuries ago, back when everyone sucked and the manga hadn't been running long enough to see a significant increase in power scale. It's not much different to how the kages in Naruto seemed comparably stronger when they were resurrected in the end part of the series than when they first appeared in the Konoha invasion. It's just power creep in manga. Mihawk would have probably looked just as bad to us now if he'd gone all out against Zoro back then. I wouldn't be surprised if Haki was something Oda thought about over the course of the manga in order to add another dimension to fighting in One Piece. After its introduction, I don't believe New World veterans like Croc couldn't use it to some extent while Kuja scrubs can.
 

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I don't think Oda already had in mind the haki concept by the start of the manga, or at least had if full completed, as it took almost 500 chapters to name it properly.
Plotwise, it's hard to think that big names like Croc or Moria didn't know how to use it by the time that Luffy fought them. First because the duo were/are forces to be feared by the wg and other pirates and fought against names thare already were or would be considered a yonkou. But they didn't use haki because the concept was not completed or couldn't be used by that time. Eve in the WB War we saw few moments were haki is used, even by vice admirals, who must know how to use it.

For me, haki is a great concept that saves the author ass. Because he don't have to think so much about how much a DF interact against other, like ee sawn on Alabasta e Skypea sagas. After those two sagas, how mucha DF relate to another had a lesser impact on the plot. The last time we saw it been important was whe Ace got killed (and by what we saw already, even if the magu fruit was no superior to the mera fruit, but Akainu haki was more powerfun than Aces, the result would be the same).
 

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I do remember we had an exchange me and @Hannibal Psyche about Haki, and the Crocodile case

I have no doubts that if Luffy fought against Crocodile in later stage of the story and not during the Arabasta arc, the fight would've been quite tough
For example I believe Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it... I don't think Oda had a general idea about Haki and its types during that stage of the story (perhaps Haoshoku and that's debatable for me), so in case Crocodile appears again (which he'll do), then we'll see him with the usual Armament Haki and Hardening as well... I don't think he learned it during the timeskip, because that would be like saying that the Admirals/VA/DD or any established strong characters learned it during that time, which is absurd

Now on the topic, well I think being dependent on your DF means neglecting improving your physical abilities (speed, strength, stamina) and hand to hand combat. For example, Akainu/Kizaru despite constantly using their DF, are probably strong fighters (probably Rokushiki) and must possess a good amount of physical strength, stamina etc
 

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I do remember we had an exchange me and @Hannibal Psyche about Haki, and the Crocodile case

I have no doubts that if Luffy fought against Crocodile in later stage of the story and not during the Arabasta arc, the fight would've been quite tough
For example I believe Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it... I don't think Oda had a general idea about Haki and its types during that stage of the story (perhaps Haoshoku and that's debatable for me), so in case Crocodile appears again (which he'll do), then we'll see him with the usual Armament Haki and Hardening as well... I don't think he learned it during the timeskip, because that would be like saying that the Admirals/VA/DD or any established strong characters learned it during that time, which is absurd
@Freid @Sakazuki

Long read, so read at your own discretion, lol.

Oda didn't know about Haki? where is the evidence to suggest that? or official statement?
  1. Wouldn't that be like saying Togashi didn't know about Nen before he created HxH simply because he didn't reveal it at the beginning of the story?
  2. Or that Toriyama didn't know about Super Saiyans just because it wasn't initially revealed?
No one reveals everything at the start of a story, or else, people wouldn't be intrigued or interested in reading further.

Also, I'm pretty sure it requires knowing well in advanced how a story will progress before it becomes a serialized Manga or Animated.

  1. Oda revealed the first Logia within the very first 100 chapters.
  2. The Logia wasn't even a high rank, was a mere commander rank.
  3. I don't need to point this out, but this is Smoker.
  4. Why would Oda create a low-ranked Logia who couldn't be defeated?
  5. Even if you want to go with Oda was going to rely on DF"weakness", Smoke has no weakness. You can't exactly splash water on Smoke, or toss anything over Smoke to make it solid, therefore, Oda must have known about Haki well in advanced, and very likely before he even published the story.
It makes no sense to introduce a character with no natural weakness into the story at such an early stage. It would be like creating Fire Pokemon without Water Pokemons. I don't think Mangakas just wake up 1 morning, decide to write a story, have a vague premise, get serialzied and then develop the story as it goes, I'm pretty certain a lot of planning would have taken place first.

What you're saying requires one to believe that Oda created Fire without Water to put it out, no respectable author would create an ability that couldn't be countered. I'm sure even his Editor would have flagged that up, and questioned it, creating a Manga is a business too, it needs to be as well-done as possible.

For example, we're told that Ohara was destroyed about 20-22 years ago in One Piece history, are you going to say that Ohara's destruction is not a part of the One Piece history? are you going to reject it? I'd assume not, all flashbacks are a fundamental and hard fact of One Piece's timeline and history.




We're told that before Luffy was born, 11 years before he was born (or 30 years from the current time-line), Garp destroyed Chinjao's Drill with his Armament Haki, are you going to reject this flashback? Isn't it a part of the history?

So, even according to One Piece's history, Haki existed.

Or, take Roger for example, would you seriously believe that he doesn't possess Conqueror's Haki as soon as we're introduced to it, and learned that his first-mate possessed it? I doubt anyone would reject of have any disbelief in Roger having all forms of Haki.

All time in One Piece is relative. Future events explain the past.

Like I stated before, at the very beginning of One Piece (Chapter 1), we see Shanks intimidated the Sea King right after it bit him. What sort of animal simply flees whilst eating up its prey? Clearly, something happened for it to have suddenly retreated, unfortunately at this point, it's all a mystery to us
.

However, as soon Oda explained Haki in Chapter 597, we can look back at previous Chapters (Chapter 1), and understand what exactly transpired there, it was Conqueror's Haki.

Even after we're shown Haki in all the few mini-arcs prior to Marineford (Skypiea - Sabaody - Amazon Lily - Impel Down), we see Haki and Crocodile didn't even demonstrate Observation Haki at either Impel Down or Marineford.




If this claim that Oda forgot Haki at the beginning of the story was true, after seeing Enel with Observation Haki, we'd have seen Oda correct Crocodile's lack of Haki in both Marineford and Impel down. Rather than that, we see Crocodile get hit by Luffy once again, and even by Jozu, nothing was corrected, so it implies Oda was happy with his representation of Crocodile. Second time Luffy has stopped it, it's not exactly a look that makes Crocodile look any stronger than he was when we initially get acquainted with him.

Truth of the matter is, if Crocodile possessed either Observation Haki or Armament, he'd have shown it. Someone who plans to take down a country in order to establish his own reign over the world doesn't fight to the best of his abilities. What sort of veteran forgest they can use Haki? It's a fundamental part of fighting if one possesses it. It's almost like claiming that a DF user forgets to use their DF, it's not entertain-able, if he possessed Haki, he'd simply have shown it, and he didn't.

With that said, even if we see Crocodile use Haki in future which we probably will, it'd only mean he just learnt to use it. Oda has already given us a back-log by which to understand why some people don't have Haki. He said some people can train and never unlock it in their life, while others do, it's all down to talent. Even Coby has demonstrated Haki, it's not like Oda forgot about Crocodile, an ex Shichibukai. The rationale used is no different to saying that Buggy must have Haki because he was once on Roger's ship. If that were the case, Oda would have expressed it in his abilities.


To ultimately reject the existence of Haki prior to Crocodile is to deny:
  1. Oda's ability as a writer.
  2. and the history of One Piece - we can't pick and choose what historical parts of One Piece to accept, it's either we accept all, or pick and choose to fit our own beliefs which isn't ideal.
By the time we even read the entire One Piece, or even before we do so, we'll read certain things now, and go back many chapters and see exactly what they meant.

Example, Oda tells us we can learn about Sabo's life in the Anime meaning it's Canon.


Sabo at the age of 19 (same age as Ace before death) was shown to be a Haki user. This time line suggests that Haki even existed at the time that Luffy was 17 (being that Sabo + ace 2 years older), and this was when he fought Crocodile. Even this suggest that Haki was around during Crocodile's fight with Luffy, so there's really no reason to claim Crocodile had it when everything he's done shows no evidence of it.
Now on the topic, well I think being dependent on your DF means neglecting improving your physical abilities (speed, strength, stamina) and hand to hand combat. For example, Akainu/Kizaru despite constantly using their DF, are probably strong fighters (probably Rokushiki) and must possess a good amount of physical strength, stamina etc

This is exactly what I've pointed out, and the Manga has explicitly shown this along with actual confirmation from Oda about this being true.

A character's strength isn't fully reflected by their ability as most don't do that. Perona defeated Luffy - Franky - Zoro simply becaue of her ability, but had she fought them with her actual strength, we can be certain they'd all easily defeat her, even Nami would probably be able to do this.

This is why I'm perplexed by how people claim Crocodile to be stronger than we've seen him despite the fact that Luffy's punches hurt him. Surely, those punches would never have hurt the likes of Akainu, Kizaru or Aokiji even if they weren't DF users or simply deactivated them.

Oda has even gone out of his way to make the point that even though DFs don't necessarily equate into strength as stated in SBS. He's even done so explicitly in the Manga too. He's pointed out that people can become renown and appear powerful simply because of the DF they possess.


Rebecca said she needed the power of the Mera Mera no Mi (in addition to her own power) to take down Joker. If they didn't make people more dangerous/threatening, then I wonder why she (along with all the gladiators) wants the Mera Mera no Mi for that purpose.

Pretty sure even Hajrudin said the same thing saying he'll become King of all Giants via the Mera Mera no Mi, all those competing for the Mera Mera no Mi were all in it because they wanted to get stronger, nicely pointed out.

Ideo himself says the exact same thing about getting stronger as a result of obtaining the Mera Mera no Mi.

The power of most DFs don't require the strength of their user just like a man with a knife doesn't get stronger because he's wielding a knife, simply becomes more dangerous - therefore, they would make relatively weak people like Rebecca appear stronger. People like Crocodile or Moriah who don't have Haki owe their success to powerful DFs, not everyone is born with the talent of Sabo, Ace, Luffy, Zoro and the Sanjis of this world who are naturally strong and don't neglect physical training.
 
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