Discussion Who's stronger between Germany and Spain ? (or at least harder to beat)

André Vinícius

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Let's use as basis a prediction of the next matches to see the diference between the Japan facing Germany and the possible Japan facing Spain to see who needed a better line-up to be defeated (considering Japan wins the WC).

Agaisnt Germany, Japan uses 4 of the top 5 HSr (Oni, Duke, Tane, Byo/Toku), 1 of the top 5 MSr (Yuki), the better double player in Japan (Niou) and Kirihara

Agaisnt Spain, Japan (would presumably) use 4 of the (arguably) top 5 MSr (Ryoma, Kin, Atobe, Fuji), one of the top 5 HSr (Byo/Toku) and 2 good double player (Kite and other that could be a MSr like Marui or a HSr like Irie and Ochi).

In a situation where (presumably) Japan uses theirs strongests MSr to beat Spain and theirs strongests HSr to beat Germany, who's stronger between them ? (or at least harder to beat)

Ps: yes this is not a good way to compare teams but it's what we got
 

TFJ

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Japan getting crushed by Germany.

I guess Spain always wins 3-0, but from a fan perspective it seems hard to make a team stronger than Volk, QP, ... Tezuka =/ and then a few other strong pros.
 

Hardy

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From a narrative point of view, the final opponent will always be stronger than the one before... So there's that.

Also it's a rather reoccurring theme here that the HSers are supporting the MSers to pass the baton to the next generation, so I don't dee anything bad about the latter beating s tougher opponent than the former.
 

felixng2011

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Healthy Medanore =/>Volk
Ryoga>QP

They split doubles.
Tezuka wins singles 3 after leveling up further from Yuki match + no hesitation playing against Spain.

My guess Spain wins 3-2. If No Ryoga, Germany would win 3-2.
 

mathematicianrcg

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Depends on Spain No. 3 if he is stronger or weaker than Tezuka.

But lets analyze first.

Spain literally have the easiest bracket. They only have USA and Switzerland as worthy opponents. And Spain is lucky the two faceoff in quarterfinals. So Spain only beat one strong team in USA. Prior to that, they beat fodder teams like Argentina, China, Russia if I am not mistaken.

Japan, Germany, France, Australia are in other bracket.

Now for Germany Vs Spain

I will not based it on Japan.

But how I predict how they do against each other.

But I will say Spain will win in a Very Close 3-2.

Doubles 2:

Bismarck/Siegfried Vs Spain D2 - (Spain Win)

Siegfried will always be the weakest link.

Doubles 1:

Doubles Pro Vs Spain D1 - (Germany Win)

Doubles Pro needs to Win for their status.

Singles 3

Tezuka Vs Spain MS - Germany Win

Tezuka Cannot lose, in order to be come a pro.

Singles 2

Qp Vs Ryoga - Spain Wins

Ryoga wins obviously

Singles 1

Volk Vs Healthy Medanore

Healthy Medanore is said to be stronger than Volk. So I will bet on Medanore.

Germany 2-3 Spain
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Japan getting crushed by Germany.

I guess Spain always wins 3-0, but from a fan perspective it seems hard to make a team stronger than Volk, QP, ... Tezuka =/ and then a few other strong pros.
Medanore/Ryoga Cancels Volk/Qp

Its up to the other Spain Members.

But remember, Those players manage to place 4th in the last world Cup, even without Medanore and Ryoga
 

erosares286

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For Spain, I think their no. 3, is the one who plays S3 against USA. Assuming he is the one who beat Kiko or Hopkins,he is a good match-up against Tezuka. Hopefully konomi reveal some spanish players next update
 

Echizen

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what are u guys talking about.. seems like u guys just talking about possibilities that will never happen... Japan will win against Germany.. and finally beat Spain.. USA plot already over...no point for Japan to face USA now.. even for the third place, Germany will dominate 3-0.. There are still many more Japan reps that have much to prove and have huge promising future..
 

Kaoz

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what are u guys talking about.. seems like u guys just talking about possibilities that will never happen...
There's nothing inherently wrong with this, even if it stays a hypothetical. There used to be a lot of discussion on match-ups like Hyoutei vs Shitenhouji, even though those teams factually never faced each other. Asking who would win between Spain and Germany or Germany and France is no different.
 

mathematicianrcg

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For Spain, I think their no. 3, is the one who plays S3 against USA. Assuming he is the one who beat Kiko or Hopkins,he is a good match-up against Tezuka. Hopefully konomi reveal some spanish players next update
We are not sure Kiko or Alan played in S3.

There is a chance they are reserving them for Finals.(They thought they can beat Spain)

Ralph, Alan, Kiko, Dodo played against Switzerland. I doubt they will repeat the lineup. I bet only Ralph repeats.

Yes. Hope pf a little bit of a teaser for unknown spanish players
 

Hardy

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We are not sure Kiko or Alan played in S3.

There is a chance they are reserving them for Finals.(They thought they can beat Spain)

Ralph, Alan, Kiko, Dodo played against Switzerland. I doubt they will repeat the lineup. I bet only Ralph repeats.

Yes. Hope pf a little bit of a teaser for unknown spanish players
I think Ralph's case was because he played a very long and disputed match. All the other 3 players you mentioned completely dominated their opponents.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Depends on Spain No. 3 if he is stronger or weaker than Tezuka.

But lets analyze first.

Spain literally have the easiest bracket. They only have USA and Switzerland as worthy opponents. And Spain is lucky the two faceoff in quarterfinals. So Spain only beat one strong team in USA. Prior to that, they beat fodder teams like Argentina, China, Russia if I am not mistaken.

Japan, Germany, France, Australia are in other bracket.

Now for Germany Vs Spain

I will not based it on Japan.

But how I predict how they do against each other.

But I will say Spain will win in a Very Close 3-2.

Doubles 2:

Bismarck/Siegfried Vs Spain D2 - (Spain Win)

Siegfried will always be the weakest link.

Doubles 1:

Doubles Pro Vs Spain D1 - (Germany Win)

Doubles Pro needs to Win for their status.

Singles 3

Tezuka Vs Spain MS - Germany Win

Tezuka Cannot lose, in order to be come a pro.

Singles 2

Qp Vs Ryoga - Spain Wins

Ryoga wins obviously

Singles 1

Volk Vs Healthy Medanore

Healthy Medanore is said to be stronger than Volk. So I will bet on Medanore.

Germany 2-3 Spain
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Medanore/Ryoga Cancels Volk/Qp

Its up to the other Spain Members.

But remember, Those players manage to place 4th in the last world Cup, even without Medanore and Ryoga
Not sure this is a really good analysis. Like, you dwelve deeper on why X thing could happen because of plot rather than thinking on the players themselves. For instance, Volk and QP could switch places and then what? Volk's fundamentals might be enough against Ryoga and QP might be god now.
 

mathematicianrcg

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We are probably few chapters away from Finals.

So, this thread Germany Vs Spain can be analyzed better when we also see Spain play.

But obviously, The Finals Boss are likely to be stronger like Hardy said.
 

-Ken-

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We do know that on average the MS are far weaker than the HS as shown by the G10 first matches against the MS. If more MS play in the final and they can still win, that might also be an indication of Germany being the stronger team despite being the Semifinal match because the HS that Japan use for Germany match are amongst their best.
 

mathematicianrcg

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We do know that on average the MS are far weaker than the HS as shown by the G10 first matches against the MS. If more MS play in the final and they can still win, that might also be an indication of Germany being the stronger team despite being the Semifinal match because the HS that Japan use for Germany match are amongst their best.
Good point. But I would prefer to based and judge it by their skills and power rather than transitive logic of results. (Also on how they will beat Spain if they would)

Having said that.

Japan indeed used 4 of their top 5 HS Players against Germany. I doubt anyone of them will repeat. They Went All In VS Germany I think.

And leave the rest to the next Genius 10 and MS who will hold the torch.

Among HS, I am only expecting Tokugawa, Irie, and Maybe Ohmagari in the Finals.

Quick Question: So for you, Spain should beat Japan ( assuming more MS play), so that they will not look weaker than Germany?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

PS: I STILL EXPECT SPAIN TO BE THE STRONGEST TEAM JAPAN WILL FACE.
 

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Quick Question: So for you, Spain should beat Japan ( assuming more MS play), so that they will not look weaker than Germany?
If Spain is indeed a stronger team than Germany, then they should indeed beat Japan. It doesn't even have to be by the same margin because JP MS probably get stronger since then.

However, there ARE two things that if either happen we can't judge the stronger team between Spain and Germany.

1. If Spain MS are the one playing against Japan. If this happen, then we will not know the level of Spain HS team period. Therefore, we will never know who is the stronger team between the two overall.

2. If ALL the JP MS that play received an extreme upgrade that clearly show they are superior to the top 5 in G10, making it so that Spain team that will be most likely fighting on par with them look superior to the Germany team that lost to G10 top 5.
 

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If Spain is indeed a stronger team than Germany, then they should indeed beat Japan. It doesn't even have to be by the same margin because JP MS probably get stronger since then.

However, there ARE two things that if either happen we can't judge the stronger team between Spain and Germany.

1. If Spain MS are the one playing against Japan. If this happen, then we will not know the level of Spain HS team period. Therefore, we will never know who is the stronger team between the two overall.

2. If ALL the JP MS that play received an extreme upgrade that clearly show they are superior to the top 5 in G10, making it so that Spain team that will be most likely fighting on par with them look superior to the Germany team that lost to G10 top 5.
In case number 2.

If my prediction of the lineup will be true or close to true.

Hsers

1. Tokugawa - All clues suggesting that he will face Medanore. And I think it is fair to say Medanore and Volk is in the same level. So for Tokugawa to defeat him, he should have a powerup that will rivals byodoin.(Well, tokugawa is a part of G5 anyway)

2. Irie - Thy Mystery Guy. Idk. Looks like even the G5 have high respect for him. I expect him to be in the level of Top 5 Of G10.

Now, for Msers

1. Atobe(?) - I dont expect much. We already saw his upgrade in "Game of the Future" movie. He just made more variations of Rondo Destruction and Ice Blizzard. He still have the classic ice blind spot, and atobe kingdom. I don't think he even have Atobe Dimension before his match against yukimura.

2. Fuji(?)- He is the one who I think will have a major upgrade. An upgrade that could rival Tezuka and Yukimura. Or at least Atobe and Sanada. And as we know Byodoin used Higuma otoshi, they could have work together. I even expect Fuji to beat a Hser.

3. Kintaro (?)- Just want to see him play again. He have a lot of potential. Even hyped to be more than Ryoma's. As for upgrade, yeah should be something special since he trained with ONI I guess.

4. Ryoma (?) - Do we even need to discuss this? Ryoma always have a ridiculous powerup in game in Finals Matches. He was outmatched against Sanada and also against Yukimura before he received a tier above upgrade.

Havinf said all of these, Idk if they can be on par or better than the lineup and performances(against germany) of:

Byodoin (Beats Volk convincingly, that says all)

Oni ( Went toe to toe with QP, even dominating him before QP went Ultimate Quality)

Tanegashima (Ik he would have lost to Bismarck (if not for akaya), but his void and erase of existence in the last set was big)

Duke (solid against Doubles pro)

Yukimura (close until the end of last set against Tezuka)

Niou (Illusions was upgraded, and perfect in doubles where he can synchro or howling with the right partner and imitation)

Akaya (Angel Akaya + Evi Akaya Upgrade)(Not to mention the executions)
 

-Ken-

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Unless JP team for Spain are on par with the JP team for Germany, Spain will always to me look like a weaker for the reason I stated though. Since the JP team DID win against Germany, the JP final team doesn't have to be able to beat JP Vs Germany team. Because currently the formula look like this

JP Germany Team>Germany Team
Germany Team ?? Spain team
JP Spain Team ?? Spain Team

If

JP Spain Team > Spain Team and Spain are stronger than Germany
Then formula will be JP Spain Team > Spain Team > Germany Team where JP Germany team can be anywhere from Spain team to JP Spain team or even stronger.

JP Spain Team > Spain Team and Spain are weaker than Germany
JP Germany Team> Germany Team > Spain Team and JP Spain Team can be in any position from Germany Team to stronger assuming they can beat Spain

Spain Team >JP Spain Team and Spain are stronger than Germany
Spain Team> Germany Team but JP Germany Team may still be better than Spain Team because they too beat Germany while JP Spain Team location is also just weaker than Spain Team but can be anywhere.

Spain Team >JP Spain Team and Spain are weaker than Germany

Spain Team>JP Germany Team>Germany Team and JP Spain team can still be anywhere just lower than Spain Team

That's about every combination.

Basically JP Spain Team HAVE to be on par with JP Germany team for Spain Team to be better than Germany. Because if they are already weaker than JP Germany Team, chances of Spain Team who will most likely lose to Japan Spain Team to be stronger than Germany Team like you say wouldn't make sense.

That would result in 3 possible combinations.

1. JP Germany > Germany Team > JP Spain Team > Spain Team

2. JP Germany > JP Spain Team > Germany Team > Spain Team

3. JP Germany > JP Spain Team > Spain Team > Germany Team

3 is the only instance that it would be possible for Spain Team to be better than Germany given the information that we do have, but we know that JP Germany and Germany Team are extremely close to the point that Germany might even win in a rematch. So there actually isn't much gap for JP Spain and Spain Team to be "stronger" than the Germany Team. At most for 3 Spain would be the team on par with Germany/JP Germany Team.

This post might be confusing but I hope it can helps show you the current narrative.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Here's some simple comparison I made.

Tokugawa/Irie both get a pass as top5 level for the same reason you stated
Echizen will be facing against Ryoga who wouldn't even surprise me if he's stronger than Volk. You can count him amongst that top 5 as well.
Kintarou actually do have PoP. With it, we saw that in his match with Oni he manage to get the same amount of game off Oni as PoP Oni get off him and Oni win because his score is far ahead at that point. This PoP Oni was good enough to get 6 game off QP straight off going from 0-3 to 6-3.
Kintarou PoP Oni get 0-5 to 1-6 with that OP Oni. Now, Oni didn't get an ugprade to his PoP in his match with QP. He almost made a comeback sure, but he didn't and didn't get new move nor did he make a come back. If PoP Kintarou recieved even just 1 upgrade, we can deem him superior to PoP Oni just by looking at PoP Kintarou vs PoP Oni Score and what happen in Oni/QP match. So he would count as top 5 in G10 level.

Now, that's 4 people. So that's Byoudonin/Tanegashima/Duke/Oni "possible equal" taken care off. So We just need to look at the rest.

Akaya
Niou
Yukimura

Atobe
Fuji
And unknown last player.

I can see Fuji being stronger than any of them with some upgrade because it's THE Fuji and he somehow always find a way. So I wouldn't say it's completely out of question.
Atobe... Well... I'm not sure. He seem to be on the same level as Yukimura in the Future movie ish but he still lose by a bit. And current Kirihara might be too much for him. However, it would have been a double match and although Tanegashima is strong one of the people above not name Ryoma might be able to do something... Maybe. Kirihara upgrade in his last match is just too insane.

The unknown last player is a key. IF it's a High Schooler of G10 level, then according to the G10 match that we saw MS VS HS we can already see that JP Spain might have an edge over JP Germany team just based on that.

What's the point of all these analysis? I just wanna say the two teams aren't that much differences power level wise assuming Konomi handle this properly and give appropriate upgrade to Fuji (Because based on what we see arguments can already be made that Echizen/Kintarou is top5 of g10 level) and G10 level player is being used as the last player of the team. It can also be Sanada but 5 MS team seems like too fan service-y.
 

LetalHawk

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Unless JP team for Spain are on par with the JP team for Germany, Spain will always to me look like a weaker for the reason I stated though. Since the JP team DID win against Germany, the JP final team doesn't have to be able to beat JP Vs Germany team. Because currently the formula look like this

JP Germany Team>Germany Team
Germany Team ?? Spain team
JP Spain Team ?? Spain Team

If

JP Spain Team > Spain Team and Spain are stronger than Germany
Then formula will be JP Spain Team > Spain Team > Germany Team where JP Germany team can be anywhere from Spain team to JP Spain team or even stronger.

JP Spain Team > Spain Team and Spain are weaker than Germany
JP Germany Team> Germany Team > Spain Team and JP Spain Team can be in any position from Germany Team to stronger assuming they can beat Spain

Spain Team >JP Spain Team and Spain are stronger than Germany
Spain Team> Germany Team but JP Germany Team may still be better than Spain Team because they too beat Germany while JP Spain Team location is also just weaker than Spain Team but can be anywhere.

Spain Team >JP Spain Team and Spain are weaker than Germany

Spain Team>JP Germany Team>Germany Team and JP Spain team can still be anywhere just lower than Spain Team

That's about every combination.

Basically JP Spain Team HAVE to be on par with JP Germany team for Spain Team to be better than Germany. Because if they are already weaker than JP Germany Team, chances of Spain Team who will most likely lose to Japan Spain Team to be stronger than Germany Team like you say wouldn't make sense.

That would result in 3 possible combinations.

1. JP Germany > Germany Team > JP Spain Team > Spain Team

2. JP Germany > JP Spain Team > Germany Team > Spain Team

3. JP Germany > JP Spain Team > Spain Team > Germany Team

3 is the only instance that it would be possible for Spain Team to be better than Germany given the information that we do have, but we know that JP Germany and Germany Team are extremely close to the point that Germany might even win in a rematch. So there actually isn't much gap for JP Spain and Spain Team to be "stronger" than the Germany Team. At most for 3 Spain would be the team on par with Germany/JP Germany Team.

This post might be confusing but I hope it can helps show you the current narrative.
By the narrative, the final opponent will always be stronger than the previous one. For Spain, you have Medanore who, fully healed, is stronger than Volk (and therefore stronger than any player from Germany), Ryoga, who without Volk in they way now, is probably the strongest Hser in the tournament, and stronger than any German player probably except maybe Volk, and probably one more Hser whose level is probably not to far off from guys like Ralph or Camus.

Their Msers will be stronger than the German’s most likely. I expect they’ll have at least one or two genius Msers.

And as for the Japanese Msers, their current strength is much diferent from before. For example, top Msers right now like Ryoma, Kintarou, Atobe, Tezuka or Yukimura can probably go toe to toe with the G5 (except Byodouin). I’m sure most of them would beat Duke and have close matches with guys like Oni, Tanegashima or Tokugawa. Ohmagari, Kimijima, Tohno, Ochi or Mouri are out of the question since all of them can probably solidly beat them at this point. So the top Japanese Msers, or at least most of them, wont get outclassed by the Hsers anymore at this point.

All aside, the Spanish team has a lot of hype to be stronger than Germany, not by much, but a little bit. Japan, no matter what they‘ll throw at them, will most likely win 3-2 in the end.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

What's the point of all these analysis? I just wanna say the two teams aren't that much differences power level wise assuming Konomi handle this properly and give appropriate upgrade to Fuji (Because based on what we see arguments can already be made that Echizen/Kintarou is top5 of g10 level) and G10 level player is being used as the last player of the team. It can also be Sanada but 5 MS team seems like too fan service-y.
I think the last player will be Kite. He's been shown training with Ohmagari and has lost every match he played, I expect him to play in the finals and win his last match. He's one of the best doubles players, I can see him being paired with Fuji or Atobe.
 

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What if it will be a tied result for Japan Vs Spain? And will decide in tiebreak? You know like what happened in Seigaku Vs Hyotei Part 1.

Also another factor that I think is not yet considered is the "gap of winning" or "how dominant is the beating". (Sorry Idk what is the right term)

Japan Vs Germany was very close. All Matches are decided in 3 sets.

S3: QP won in 3 sets (Germany)
D2: Duke/Niou won in 3 sets (tiebreak) (Japan)
S2: Tezuka won in 3 sets (7-5 in the 3rd) (Germany)
D1: Tanegashima/Akaya won in 3 sets (Japan)
S1: Byodoin Won in 3 sets (tiebreak) (Japan).

That was the closest match I have ever seen between 2 teams in the history of POT and NPOT.

I agree with some points of both ken and lethal.

But 1 factor I will consider (As an addition to what they said already) is the eye test and as I said how Spain Players won their matches. (Obviously spain will win 2 or 3) And also how close is the matches Spain will lose..

Because I really think Spain will have 2 dominant wins in Finals. And all their losses will be close one.

This is all assuming Japan will win ofc. (Most likely)
 

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If Spain is indeed a stronger team than Germany, then they should indeed beat Japan. It doesn't even have to be by the same margin because JP MS probably get stronger since then.

However, there ARE two things that if either happen we can't judge the stronger team between Spain and Germany.

1. If Spain MS are the one playing against Japan. If this happen, then we will not know the level of Spain HS team period. Therefore, we will never know who is the stronger team between the two overall.

2. If ALL the JP MS that play received an extreme upgrade that clearly show they are superior to the top 5 in G10, making it so that Spain team that will be most likely fighting on par with them look superior to the Germany team that lost to G10 top 5.
Do you think it's farfetched to think Kintarou>Tokugawa>Ryoma end as a stronger singles lineup compared to Oni>Yukimura>Byoudouin? For 1 and 3 it's been hinted that'll be the case and 2 was always ahead.

It gets trickier in doubles but sth like Irie/Atobe is probably as strong as either doubles used against Germany, especially D1 that was a very makeshift pair of players that probably prefer singles.

Kite is hinted to become a stronger version of Ohmagari, number 6, so he's no scrub to have around either; and you can bet the final spot goes to Fuji who is probably not as attractive as any of the other players mentioned but Konomi took his time to show him improving gradually.

Idk, I think the MSers/leftovers can put a formidable team. It was the original idea of the series to have a Mser only team as the lead but Konomi grew attached of the Hsers so he mixed them all.

So uh... Yeah I think Spain is stronger. The gap is probably not as wide as Nationals Rikkai vs Nationals Shiten however.
 

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What's the point of all these analysis? I just wanna say the two teams aren't that much differences power level wise assuming Konomi handle this properly and give appropriate upgrade to Fuji (Because based on what we see arguments can already be made that Echizen/Kintarou is top5 of g10 level) and G10 level player is being used as the last player of the team. It can also be Sanada but 5 MS team seems like too fan service-y.

I already state this so I will ignore any point stated about the JP Spain team being weaker than JP Germany team because I already did a full post on it. Reading is tech. If you want to know my response on that just read what I say before.

Final opponents being the strongest isn't always the case in shounen. For example, in Kenshin, hardly anyone think the final manga boss is stronger than Shishio. We also see examples in PoT although it's not a final boss because team Hyoutei is probably like 3rd strongest team in Kantou but get off 1st round.

I will add that Germany AND JP team are indeed very close like mathematicianrcg stated. Hence, if Japan manage to beat Spain team by a bigger margin that would one of the indicators that Spain team is weaker than Germany assuming that the JP Team they send out for final appears to be weaker than JP team for semi-final after we see their respective upgrade (like how Kirihara went from shit to top tier) for their matches. At the minimum their matches should be very close just like the semi-final and the JP team do need to be at minimum the same level.

Sanada got shit on a lot and his last match was disappointing and doesn't even properly so I actually want the last guy on the team to be him. Atobe/Fuji/Sanada is an all star line up for the original PoT after all. Kirihara wasn't on anyone radar back then as a strong player and even got shit by Yanagi in the beginning of series with a pathetic perfect lose.
 
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